General Superverse Questions and Answers

[Filbert]

I don't think it's about mortality, it was the result of fans writing in to complain about anachronisms in Superboy stories: jets, tv, a-bombs. Superboy was thus given a thirties asthetic, while Superman and company remained un-aging, but always modern adults.
https://captaincomics.ning.com/m/dis...Topic%3A422600
This blog talks about it.

[Adekis]

I don't think it's about mortality, it was the result of fans writing in to complain about anachronisms in Superboy stories: jets, tv, a-bombs. Superboy was thus given a thirties asthetic, while Superman and company remained un-aging, but always modern adults.
https://captaincomics.ning.com/m/dis...Topic%3A422600
This blog talks about it.

That blog post is a great resource! Thanks! Who knew that comic fans were just as finicky and detail-oriented back in the fifties!? Well, maybe it should be obvious!

Funnily enough, the blog shows that January 1971 is definitely the time that Superman's timeline became unmoored, right around when I thought - but I had no idea that Weisinger had already been off the Superboy titles for a few years by that point!

We do know that Weisinger had thoughts about keeping Superman mortal - he spoke about his desire to do so in various interviews. A lot of the stories about Superman losing his powers - a common occurrence, then - were borne from that desire, Weisinger said! And I think it's noteworthy that only after Weisinger left the department alltogether, that Superman's age was estaablished as twenty-nine!

But it seems that the timeline alignment proper was a separate concern on that front!

Thanks again!

[Kuwagaton]

Yeah, I don't have the earliest Robbins comics but by the end of the 60s the books all had that Schwartz era feeling even if he didn't actually edit them.

And agreed, cool to have that post as a resource

[Vordan]

Pre-Crisis Superman being 29 is insane, that dude was 40 years old at the youngest.

[Kuwagaton]

Back in the sixties a receding hairline could have been at 24 lmao

But I love how they mentioned the disconnect: Superman can make utterly no sense in the real world but stick Superboy in a fixed past and people start asking questions

[Adekis]

Pre-Crisis Superman being 29 is insane, that dude was 40 years old at the youngest.

Just the way certain artists portrayed him was the reason that I always said, I can imagine Superman being 50 in 1971. Like for example, the way he was drawn in the Sand-Superman Saga. That said, Lois was drawn so much younger! I think Curt Swan just... liked drawing women to look young and glamorous.

This is one reason why I used to question whether only Superman aged in real time and his supporting cast did not. Of course it makes sense to learn that the reality was even more inconsistent.

[Jim Kelly]

Not gonna lie. It hurts a lot to see you guys haven't read my posts. Because if you'd been reading any of them, you would know a lot of this stuff already.

I think that Deck Log blog was stretching to make some points.

Mort Weisinger being the one who axed Jerry Siegel's initial plan for Superboy doesn't add up. Siegel first came up with that idea in 1938, when Weisinger wasn't even working in the comics industry. Vin Sullivan was the editor at the time. Whitney Ellsworth had been working for Major Nicholson as an editor before then, but he had left to go Hollywood.

I don't believe it was exactly Siegel's "Superboy the Menace" that was turned down. It seems more likely that the people in charge were too slow on the uptake. It had taken Jerry and Joe many years to get anyone to pay attention to their Superman idea. They were in their early twenties and a lot of these publishers were in their thirties and forties. Siegel and Shuster were in touch with what was happening in the now--the old guys were stuck in the past. Donenfeld and Liebowitz just didn't get it. Remember, it isn't until the December 1939 issue of ACTION (number 19) that Superman finally takes over the covers permanently (or at least until 1988).

The publishers were only beginning to understand that this super-hero was a money-maker. And they had licensed the idea to the newspaper syndicate and then radio. Their eggs were all in the Superman basket. They didn't want to confuse things by introducing a younger version of the character.

Sullivan left in 1940, because he didn't like Donenfeld and Liebowitz who had pushed Nicholson out. Ellsworth returned from Hollywood after a failed romance and took over from Sullivan. Around this time Jack Schiff and Murray Boltinoff came to work for Ellsworth. With Whitney, there was a shift in tone, as he sanitized Superman and Batman.

Jerry wrote a full script for Superboy in late 1940--the same script that was later used for the first Superboy story in MORE FUN COMICS 101 (January-February 1945), on sale November 22nd, 1944 (albeit with modifications). Whitney might have turned that down initially, because it didn't fit with his concept of Clark the boy scout.

Weisinger got hired in March of 1941. Mort could not have turned down Jerry's script. And he was new--why would he have the power in 1941 to make executive decisions like that? Then, in 1942, Weisinger was called up, so he was gone from the company. The following year, Jerry likewise had to leave for service--posted to Honolulu.

It was Jack Schiff who was the main editor, under Ellsworth, who controlled the fate of Superboy from MORE FUN 101 onward. After the war ended, Mort came back in 1946 and that's when he started to gain a greater say at National--especially once Whit became more involved with producing Superman on film. But Schiff remained the editor on SUPERBOY and ADVENTURE COMICS up until 1953, when he passed those off to Mort. This is when Weisinger gained control over most of the Superman books--although Schiff, as the Batman editor, still remained as editor on WORLD'S FINEST COMICS.

Weisinger didn't take over WORLD'S FINEST until 1964, when Schiff left all the Batman books (other than Giants). So it was only between 1964 and 1968 when Mort was the Superman editor on every book except JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA.

And young Clark could be a prankster at times. As Superbaby, he was even more of a mischief maker--although his misdeeds always had good intentions.

[Jim Kelly]

The idea that the timeline keeps getting rebooted every year seems to be something that was imported from Marvel. This makes sense? I'd argue it does far worse things to continuity, as many stories are set in a specific period and relevant to those times. Yet if we have to keep updating these stories in our minds, that means continuity is constantly shifting and there's nothing concrete.

Superman being 29 years old was established in 1971, when Mort Weisinger had finally retired as editor--like a Cheshire cat he had been fading out since 1968.

I posted all this before on other threads.

Mort Weisinger's Last Issues:

SUPERBOY 148 (June 1968)
--Murray Boltinoff begins issue 149 (July 1968)

ADVENTURE COMICS 396 (August 1970)
--Mike Sekowsky begins issue 397 (September 1970)

SUPERMAN’S GIRL FRIEND, LOIS LANE 103 (August 1970)
--issue 104 was a Giant [G-75] (September-October 1970), credited to Weisinger, but E. Nelson Bridwell was the real editor for most of the Giants at this time
--E. Nelson Bridwell begins officially issue 105 (October 1970)

SUPERMAN'S PAL, JIMMY OLSEN 132 (September 1970)
--Murray Boltinoff begins issue 133 (October 1970)

ACTION COMICS 392 (September 1970)
--Murray Boltinoff begins issue 393 (October 1970)

WORLD’S FINEST COMICS 196 (September 1970)
--issue 197 was a Giant [G-76] (October-November 1970), edited by E. Nelson Bridwell
--Julius Schwartz begins issue 198 (November 1970)

SUPERMAN 231 (November 1970)
--issue 232 was a Giant [G-78] (December 1970 - January 1971), edited by E. Nelson Bridwell
--Julius Schwartz begins issue 233 (January 1971)


On sale the month of November 1970 and all cover dated January 1971, these Superman family titles carried the same two page special announcement--ACTION COMICS 396, ADVENTURE COMICS 401, SUPERBOY 171, SUPERMAN 233, SUPERMAN'S GIRL FRIEND, LOIS LANE 107 and SUPERMAN'S PAL, JIMMY OLSEN 135--





Additionally, SUPERBOY 171 had an extra page explaining a change to how time worked in the comics.




The page in SUPERBOY established the new version of time, where Superboy was always about 13 years (give or take) behind Superman--which meant that Superman was always 29 and this was stuck to--at least in the Schwartz and Bridwell edited titles--until the change over in 1986.

And I would say in all those comics, Superman appears to be a young man. After all, Christopher Reeve was only 26 when he first played the character in the 1978 SUPERMAN movie.

The Man of Steel had become younger looking even before 1971, when Neal Adams illustrated many of the Superman family covers--while Curt Swan and Murphy Anderson handled most of the rest--and Ross Andru was on interior art.

How old is Clark in the early Siegel & Shuster comics? Does anyone know? He comes across as younger but it's not nailed down. Once Wayne Boring changes the look of the character in 1948--adding an extra head of height and a big bread basket--you could argue that his Action Ace looks older. And when George Reeves was playing Superman on T.V., Curt Swan was reportedly instructed to age up Supes so he resembled Reeves. Thus the slightly receding hairline.

But as the George Reeves Superman faded from memory (and out of syndication), that was no longer the primary rule.

Mort Weisinger maintained that Superman had been around since ACTION COMICS no. 1, in 1938. But I don't think he ever meant this to make sense in real world terms. Comic books can have their own rules. And if Clark Kent were twenty years old in 1938 that would make him forty years old in 1958. Given Lana and Lois were established as being the same age as Clark, they would have to be that old, too--they certainly didn't look it.

In the 1950s and the 1960s most of the readers were kids. I started reading super-hero comics when I was seven--I had been reading other comics like CASPER and ARCHIE well before that. To me all adults were mysteriously old. If they were in their twenties, thirties, forties or fifties--I had no idea--they were just old.

Likewise, what happened in the distant past was not something I could fully understand. If there were people writing into Weisinger about the anachronisms they saw in Superboy comics, they must have either been the very few adults that still read comic books, or some very advanced children. At that age I couldn't even spell anachronism, let alone pronounce it or know what it meant.

For the editor, what made sense for the time period was hardly that important. It's just a conceit that Superboy stories happen in a distant past, that never actually existed. Just as Little Lulu, Little Orphan Annie and Nancy occupy the same vague time period that might be the 1930s or might be the present day.

I gather that the readership gradually aged in the 1960s and 1970s. Maybe thanks to Marvel's influence. In my world, there was still a lot of social pressure to give up comic books by the time I was ten years old. In high school, everyone mocked me for being a comic book collector. I guess this wasn't universally the case, since comics began to cater to teen-agers and twenty-somethings. Making Superman younger made sense, in order to attract such readers. We weren't supposed to trust anyone over thirty--we could trust a 29 year old Man of Tomorrow.

It's ridiculous that there are so many old-timers in today's comics. Maybe this is supposed to appeal to the much older readership--the forty-somethings. But it doesn't appeal to me. I think the majority of super-heroes should be in their teens or twenties. That's when people are most fit and active, most willing to take risks. Middle-aged folks don't make good super-heroes.

[Will Evans]

How old is Jimmy suppose to be currently?

[Kuwagaton]

Not gonna lie. It hurts a lot to see you guys haven't read my posts. Because if you'd been reading any of them, you would know a lot of this stuff already.

I think that Deck Log blog was stretching to make some points.

It's a mix of things we could have largely put together ourselves based on knowing those exact things, what you might have posited over the years for us in addition, and other details such as Mort explicitly giving Superman the age of 32 (and since the OP asked about her, Lucy was 21). Yes a few details could actually be challenged, but overall it's a good blog post. Glad you saw it as milk and cookies.

[Kuwagaton]

How old is Jimmy suppose to be currently?

There's pretty much no way he can be younger than 27 if he was at the DP before Jon was born. 30 would make sense except it seems just a bit older than he was portrayed in the latest Williamson comics. Possible though.

[Ascended]

Far as I know, technically speaking Jim is still supposed to be just a few years younger than Clark, as established in the New52. I don't think that's been changed or contradicted yet?

So if Clark is somewhere around 40 Jim should be somewhere around 35-37 I guess? If he's considerably younger than the Kents again, then I'd guess he's around the same age as Nightwing and the other adult Titans, which should put him somewhere in his very late 20's or very early 30's I think.

DC might write and draw Jim like he's 21 or whatever, but they've become real bad with this stuff. According to Super history Conner Kent should be closer to 26 than 16, same with the other Young Justice kids, who shouldn't be quite so "young" anymore. At least with Conner, you've got two built-in reasons for him to *look* young; he's spent a chunk of time in limbo, and there's an old plot from his solo series where he learns he isn't aging (which the YJ cartoon picked up) that could always be back in play (I believe the comic resolved that problem but you could say it didn't last).

[Kuwagaton]

Probably the smallest gap you can go with is 30 and 40. Jimmy was a teenager upon debut according to the Reborn rollout, then an obviously young adult during his own series. For him to look and be treated as he is in the new comic, it'd be really awkward if he was past the early 30s. And you'd have to condense quite a bit to make Superman late 30s even if it's quite possible to assume.

[SuperCrab]

Isn't Connor still considered a refugee from a prior timeline without an origin in the present timeline? If so, that should in theory leave his age unmoored from the ages and events of everyone around him, except in so far the aging up from his first appearance in this timeline to the present.

Also, being a 50/50 clone of Superman and Lex Luthor created in a vat would seem to give them even further creative license on his aging. The unique process that created him might mean he ages more quickly or more slowly than most people, and could have had no childhood prior to when he was first seen in the comics. Being a Kryptonian/human hybrid also only has one other major precedent (Jon).

Granted, I am neither current on Superman comics or someone who ever paid a whole lot of attention to the Connor character. So, I could easily be missing several somethings here. I think the last thing I read involving him was a trade collection where he teamed up with Clark and (aged up) Jon. In that collection, I think it was only Ma and Pa Kent who could clearly remember his past, and even there they needed to see him to have the fog lifted, and seemed to have two sets of memories for certain time periods- one with him, one without him. Other people began to remember him to an extent, and I think Superman accepted him, but it wasn't a complete merger back into the timeline with an origin that happened in the past of that timeline for everyone, unlike, say, the way they fully merged Superman back into the timeline in Superman Reborn.

This was more like early post-Rebirth Caucasian Wally West. I think they merged West back in eventually, though, and gave him back the marriage and the kids from Post-Crisis (I don't know, didn't read those issues of those books). I'm not sure if Connor ever got that full treatment.

Actually, sort of having one foot in the current timeline and one foot out of it sort of fits the outsider leather jacket image Connor is sometimes portrayed as having. Sort of gives him a reason to have a chip on his shoulder and feel like he isn't being fully accepted, beyond the, you know, clone who's 50% Superman's archnemesis' genes instead of natural born child of Clark and Lois thing.

[Vordan]

Between STAS and MAWS, does anyone know if there were any other solo Superman cartoon pitches?