Infernalist Doom versus 'Sold His Soul Twice' Baron Mordo

[Sharpandpointies]

So in the original thread, it was pretty easily determined that Doom - wearing his Edgelord skin armor - handily defeats an un-amped Baron Mordo.

But it's really the armor that locks this in for Doom, as wearing the armor he apparently easily defeated Strange (it remains to be seen what phase of 'Strange' we're talking about, here, as 'defeating Strange' could mean any number of things over the last twenty years).

So I propose an amped-up version of Mordo to fight the armor-amped Doom: Baron Karl Amadeus 'I sold my soul to a demon lord for power, twice!'* Mordo.

See, at one point Mordo set up a highly convoluted plan to kill Strange that involved him selling his soul for 24 hours of power to not one, but TWO Hell Lords - Satannish and Mephisto, both giving him enormous amounts of power.

With that power, he basically toys with Classic Strange, easily penetrating the Sanctum's defenses and completely stomping him while laughing the entire time. Stephen gets out of it because...well, never mind, it's a long story. Anyway, that's basically where things stand with regards to 'I Sold My Soul Twice' Mordo - he laughing beats down Strange, *wiggles hand* as easily as Dormammu does when Furnace Face is on a roll.

So who takes this battle of the Amp-Up sorcerers?

* isekai version?

[big_adventure]

That probably places them around the same level. "Treats Classic Strange like a chihuahua with a chew toy" is a pretty good level. I guess I'd give the edge slightly to Mordo for being a more skilled "unamped" guy.

[Sharpandpointies]

Mordo is highly skilled, to say the least.

The version of Strange that Doom took out - what year was this? I'm trying to figure out exactly how...oomphy this Strange was. As we know, he has fluctuated over the years, and the one Mordo laughingly beat down was Classic Strange just before his downward spiral.

[big_adventure]

Mordo is highly skilled, to say the least.

The version of Strange that Doom took out - what year was this? I'm trying to figure out exactly how...oomphy this Strange was. As we know, he has fluctuated over the years, and the one Mordo laughingly beat down was Classic Strange just before his downward spiral.

It was from 2003, which I "think" places it enough outside of fern-buster Strange territory to work out. It was portrayed in the comics (it was only in Fantastic Four, right around FF500 period) as being a big deal.

[Sharpandpointies]

It was from 2003, which I "think" places it enough outside of fern-buster Strange territory to work out. It was portrayed in the comics (it was only in Fantastic Four, right around FF500 period) as being a big deal.

Okay, I can place where/when this is. And, unfortunately, it's well-outside of Classic Strange territory.

By 2003, Strange's 'Sorcerer Supreme' series has ended. In that series, he was depowered not once, but twice, switched magic systems two times, ended the series using one of those other magical systems, and never regained his full power. Classic Strange's power level only really lasts a chunk of that series, until he loses his magic the first time.

Everything after that is pretty much on its own for feats. And we end up with all kinds of miniseries where his magic is inexplicably presented in different ways, or dying, and the feats are...not so great. Plus, we have on top of that his run in Avengers, where he pretty much states he isn't what he used to be.

It's not until recent years - in the 2018 Dr. Strange series - that he actually shows feats on a similar level to what we would expect from Classic Strange, as well as being presented as Clea's equal (Clea, who never really got messed with at all and has always basically kept the same level of power). And he actually GETS that way by doing something, rather than just 'being written' that way, which is how most of the miniseries with his altered magic/lost magic/regained magic stuff went.

So what does it mean?

To me, it means the guy that Doom dropped wasn't Classic Strange.

Now, as Sorcerer Supreme, which he apparently was, that's saying something. And in that range of time, he was certainly being used as Earth's Sorcerer Supreme. But he wasn't Classic Strange, with all of the ridiculous power level.

So I'm currently leaning more Mordo, here, since Mordo toyed with and wrecked Stephen in his Sanctum, while Stephen was still in his Classic Strange time period.

But what kind of feats - outside of winning against Strange - did Doom pull off with his powered up magic?

[Alan2099]

But it's really the armor that locks this in for Doom, as wearing the armor he apparently easily defeated Strange (it remains to be seen what phase of 'Strange' we're talking about, here, as 'defeating Strange' could mean any number of things over the last twenty years).

It was specifically mentioned in the story that Doom caught him with his guard down and surprised him with a demon invasion.

Other than that, Doom was able to no sell Human Torch, Thing, and Invisible Woman going all out, turn off and switch around their powers, summon demons and open portals. Also at one point, Ben hit him so hard it spun his head backwards and Doom just reached up and turned it back around.

One interesting thing is that Doom actually used Mindless Ones as obedient minions at one point, and those things have always been almost impossible to control even for people like Dormammu.

Still, once Reed was able to hit him with some basic magic, he folded pretty quickly.

[big_adventure]

Okay, I can place where/when this is. And, unfortunately, it's well-outside of Classic Strange territory.

By 2003, Strange's 'Sorcerer Supreme' series has ended. In that series, he was depowered not once, but twice, switched magic systems two times, ended the series using one of those other magical systems, and never regained his full power. Classic Strange's power level only really lasts a chunk of that series, until he loses his magic the first time.

Everything after that is pretty much on its own for feats. And we end up with all kinds of miniseries where his magic is inexplicably presented in different ways, or dying, and the feats are...not so great. Plus, we have on top of that his run in Avengers, where he pretty much states he isn't what he used to be.

It's not until recent years - in the 2018 Dr. Strange series - that he actually shows feats on a similar level to what we would expect from Classic Strange, as well as being presented as Clea's equal (Clea, who never really got messed with at all and has always basically kept the same level of power). And he actually GETS that way by doing something, rather than just 'being written' that way, which is how most of the miniseries with his altered magic/lost magic/regained magic stuff went.

So what does it mean?

To me, it means the guy that Doom dropped wasn't Classic Strange.

Now, as Sorcerer Supreme, which he apparently was, that's saying something. And in that range of time, he was certainly being used as Earth's Sorcerer Supreme. But he wasn't Classic Strange, with all of the ridiculous power level.

So I'm currently leaning more Mordo, here, since Mordo toyed with and wrecked Stephen in his Sanctum, while Stephen was still in his Classic Strange time period.

I hear you with all of that - the only consideration I'll add is that Strange was often presented as super tough when outside of his "regular" appearances, it was only in his regular appearances that he was written as weaker, likely mostly for story reasons, especially when there were team-ups involved.

But what kind of feats - outside of winning against Strange - did Doom pull off with his powered up magic?

Honestly, nothing all that impressive. He no-sold the FF, ignored and laughed at their best shots. He depowered them and changed their powers with a glance. He imprisoned Reed and barred him from accessing or using technology. He controls demons and mindless ones.

He then lost a magic fight to Reed Richards when Reed studied up a bit (well, OK, it's implied to be months or years) in Doom's library.

[Sharpandpointies]

Been doing some thinking about this.

It was specifically mentioned in the story that Doom caught him with his guard down and surprised him with a demon invasion.

Other than that, Doom was able to no sell Human Torch, Thing, and Invisible Woman going all out, turn off and switch around their powers, summon demons and open portals. Also at one point, Ben hit him so hard it spun his head backwards and Doom just reached up and turned it back around.

That's an interesting point re: taking down Strange.

Dealing with the FF is nice, it's good stuff, but it's not something that's outside the realm of possibility for a high-level Marvel sorcerer.

One interesting thing is that Doom actually used Mindless Ones as obedient minions at one point, and those things have always been almost impossible to control even for people like Dormammu.

Yeaaaah...this is getting in SMvsFL territory. The Mindless Ones are explicitly uncontrollable beings even to, as noted, someone as powerful as Furnace Face. Maybe that has changed in recent times? Don't know.

Still, once Reed was able to hit him with some basic magic, he folded pretty quickly.

Even more weirdness.

I hear you with all of that - the only consideration I'll add is that Strange was often presented as super tough when outside of his "regular" appearances, it was only in his regular appearances that he was written as weaker, likely mostly for story reasons, especially when there were team-ups involved.

The issue is 'How tough?' Still best on planet? Maybe. Still Sorcerer Supreme? Maybe. Classic Strange level, who can take on Dormammu and not immediately fold, who can endure supernovas and muck around with black holes and time on a planetary level? Nothing to show that.

It's a telling point that DORMAMMU needs to work a little to deal with a full-powered Classic Strange (he wins, but he needs to put effort in) whereas Doom, here, basically takes him out (granted, there are asterisks on this as noted above, and certainly Dormammu would *snaps fingers* take out Strange from surprise). This feels like either 'Strange not on his Classic Levels at all', or 'SMvsFL'.

Especially given...

Honestly, nothing all that impressive. He no-sold the FF, ignored and laughed at their best shots. He depowered them and changed their powers with a glance. He imprisoned Reed and barred him from accessing or using technology. He controls demons and mindless ones.

He then lost a magic fight to Reed Richards when Reed studied up a bit (well, OK, it's implied to be months or years) in Doom's library.

So Reed kicks his ass with magic after reading some books? O_O For starters, it's ignoring all about how magic works in Marvel and making it into rote memorization of incantations and gestures, as I recall it being presented. Then there's Reed beating Doom in a magical duel after...training himself? Beating Doom? A guy who has been doing this for decades, a guy who - let's face it - is one of the better mages on the planet (he's no classic Strange, and he's not Mordo, but he fires off the Crimson Bands, he has lots of magical background, he's been trained by Strange, he has fought demons in Hell with his magic, etc, etc)? And Doom at this point is supposedly vastly enhanced by his Infernal armor?

Then there's the weirdness of 'controlling Mindless Ones' and 'Casually beating Strange', things Dormammu can't do (granted, catching Strange off-guard - as Alan points out - Furnace Face would absolutely curbstomp Classic Strange as well, so there's that).

And that's setting aside the characterization stuff.

So there's a whole lot of weirdness going on that casts some shadows on just how strong Doom was, especially with regards to taking out Strange.

Couple that with the point Alan makes about Doom catching Strange with his pants down, and I don't see how this compares to Mordo, who not only warned Strange ahead of time to expect bad things that day through a number of manifestations, but casually walked through the Sanctum's defenses, got all in Classic Strange's face in the middle of that Sanctum, and laughingly curbstomped him, toying with him and giving him chances to break out of spells and such before simply continuing to beat his head in (magically speaking).

Edit: Note that this is something that Mordo can't do when 'simply' enhanced by Dormammu's own power - Strange makes a hell of a fight out of that one, and that's before he becomes the Sorcerer Supreme (though Mordo, himself, is weaker at that time). It's explicitly noted in the story that the only reason Mordo can get away with treating Strange like he's absolute garbage is that Mordo has - in his usual, 'consequences are for other people' fashion - sold his soul to TWO powerful entities to increase his power (something that would normally be impossible, because...well, they don't like to share).

Dormammu himself has never treated Stephen quite so casually on Stephen's home ground when Strange was in 'Classic' mode.

[Alan2099]

So Reed kicks his ass with magic after reading some books? O_O For starters, it's ignoring all about how magic works in Marvel and making it into rote memorization of incantations and gestures, as I recall it being presented. Then there's Reed beating Doom in a magical duel after...training himself? Beating Doom? A guy who has been doing this for decades, a guy who - let's face it - is one of the better mages on the planet (he's no classic Strange, and he's not Mordo, but he fires off the Crimson Bands, he has lots of magical background, he's been trained by Strange, he has fought demons in Hell with his magic, etc, etc)? And Doom at this point is supposedly vastly enhanced by his Infernal armor?

This is actually incorrect. Reed did not just read some books and train himself.

Doom actually trapped Reed in a room filled with magical books and locked with a spell so simple that he claimed a four year old could open it. Reed couldn't open it. Reed would try to read the books and do spells and they wouldn't make sense to him. It was actually the disembodied, heavily damaged, and barley able to form complete sentences spectral form of Dr. Strange that talk him.

The reason Reed couldn't use magic is that he tried to understand it and make sense of it. Dr. Strange had to teach him that's not how magic works. You can't just say words, you have to believe and feel that they work.

Reed actually had to use phrases like "I'm a moron," "I'm an imbecile" and "I have no idea what I'm doing AS magic words to get his magic to work, and then he channeled it through this thing he found in Dr Strange's sanctum. There's no explanation for what it is and Reed doesn't know either.

Even with that, Reed doesn't defeat Doom himself. He tricks Doom into going back on the deal he made with the demons and they show up and drag him to hell.

[Sharpandpointies]

Okay. That makes a little more sense. Thanks!

……

It’s still not great, but better. It’s missing the whole ‘years of training’, ‘aptitude’, and ‘development of one’s own magical/psychic energies’, but it makes more sense.

[MichaelC]

It was basically a magical plot-device gizmo powered by humility. Reed had the ability to humiliate himself in order to save his family.

Doom's deal was that he must always credit the demons for his power. He just had to be humble about his powersource to keep it forever and never lose his soul. Alas, once being stung by Reed's humility-powered gizmo made him mad enough, he, irrc, bragged about how he alone was responsible for his greatness, and that broke the deal, so the demons were able to drag him to hell.