"The Brood deserve no quarter"

[OG Storm]

So he gets to make that moral choice to defend others but it's wrong for cyclops to decide to go after what he considers the worse of the worse when they are actively attacking his father and people? One thing though, at least Cyclops never seemed elated and wanted to be lifted and cheered after killing countless people. I mean it's a very weird road to go down to make cyclops seem unreasonable but broo some sort of hero. Cyclops has other independent minded people backing him up, to voice concerns and then make an informed choice, broo is the choice and the judge and the morals.

I am not saying Scott doesn't have legitimate reason to want to kill them off. But what Broo is doing by creating a proactive slavery strike force to stop slavery and other galactic ills isn't the same thing as choosing genocide as the first option in dealing with the brood. Imprisonment in a pocket dimension... and a whole host of other options come to mind. Choosing genocide as your first option is problematic even if they tried to kill his dad.

[jwatson]

I am not saying Scott doesn't have legitimate reason to want to kill them off. But what Broo is doing by creating a proactive slavery strike force to stop slavery and other galactic ills isn't the same thing as choosing genocide as the first option in dealing with the brood. Imprisonment in a pocket dimension...

It isn't the first time the x-men faced the brood as recently as X-men in this era if i remember correctly. And then they came back and have shown to be using others to improve themselves so there is no telling how many other powered civilizations this is being done to at this exact moment. people really throw the word genocide around easily to try to i think illicit a reaction but if Cyclops let broo live one was still alive unless people are saying that Scott would have even killed Broo and then i would say so Cyclops is purposefully being written out of character to make Jean have her moment. But i'm trying to be fair to Duggan and the story that is taking place here and in Captain Marvel where the brood have just lethally hurt psylocke and killed binary as well as hurt rogue and say specifically their plan is to destroy everything but them but somehow that gets ignored because i guess genocide is the word of the day when it really does not fit. This is not a group of innocent individuals being rounded up just for existing and being wiped out.

[OG Storm]

It isn't the first time the x-men faced the brood as recently as X-men in this era if i remember correctly. And then they came back and have shown to be using others to improve themselves so there is no telling how many other powered civilizations this is being done to at this exact moment. people really throw the word genocide around easily to try to i think illicit a reaction but if Cyclops let broo live one was still alive unless people are saying that Scott would have even killed Broo and then i would say so Cyclops is purposefully being written out of character to make Jean have her moment. But i'm trying to be fair to Duggan and the story that is taking place here and in Captain Marvel where the brood have just lethally hurt psylocke and killed binary as well as hurt rogue and say specifically their plan is to destroy everything but them but somehow that gets ignored because i guess genocide is the word of the day when it really does not fit. This is not a group of innocent individuals being rounded up just for existing and being wiped out.

I don't think it gets ignored at all when the Brood's entire plan came from nightmare. I don't think Scott is being written out of character at all. Scott has chosen genocide before when he had beast create a pathogen to kill the Skrulls. I would argue this doesn't give Jean her moment but it does give Scott his. Jean has a moral clarity about this because she learned from her mistakes. Scott and Lucas clearly haven't.

[Sutekh]

I am not saying Scott doesn't have legitimate reason to want to kill them off. But what Broo is doing by creating a proactive slavery strike force to stop slavery and other galactic ills isn't the same thing as choosing genocide as the first option in dealing with the brood. Imprisonment in a pocket dimension... and a whole host of other options come to mind. Choosing genocide as your first option is problematic even if they tried to kill his dad.

Jean's folks *did* get murdered by Shiar, not just 'almost,' and despite her history of blowing up worlds in their territory, she still let their species live.

But seriously, yeah, the X-folk have no shortage of extra-dimensional resources. Limbo could make a fine dumping ground. Or Otherworld. Or Liveworld (Pathway's pocket dimension, and it was strongly implied that she could create another one, if she wanted...). Plus others I am no doubt forgetting. Lila Cheney's Dyson sphere is freaking huge (can hold 2.6 trillion Earth sized planets, which is like a metric ****ton of Brood) and uninhabited. Just dump them there and seal it shut or drop-kick it into the Purple Dimension (from which there is no return, per Dr. Strange).

While it could be tempted to just dump them in the Vault, I don't think the Vault is big enough, and I'm not sure I want to see Brood of the Vault come out with whatever useless powers the Vault Children have belched forth this week (only to lose yet again against X-folk who 'evolve' into more powerful forms WAY faster...).

[jwatson]

Jean's folks *did* get murdered by Shiar, not just 'almost,' and despite her history of blowing up worlds in their territory, she still let their species live.

But seriously, yeah, the X-folk have no shortage of extra-dimensional resources. Limbo could make a fine dumping ground. Or Otherworld. Or Liveworld (Pathway's pocket dimension, and it was strongly implied that she could create another one, if she wanted...). Plus others I am no doubt forgetting. Lila Cheney's Dyson sphere is freaking huge (can hold 2.6 trillion Earth sized planets, which is like a metric ****ton of Brood) and uninhabited. Just dump them there and seal it shut or drop-kick it into the Purple Dimension (from which there is no return, per Dr. Strange).

While it could be tempted to just dump them in the Vault, I don't think the Vault is big enough, and I'm not sure I want to see Brood of the Vault come out with whatever useless powers the Vault Children have belched forth this week (only to lose yet again against X-folk who 'evolve' into more powerful forms WAY faster...).

But won't they starve to death without other life forms to eat? So isn't that essentially sending them to their death slowly and painfully. If not that, it's sacrificing the inhabitants of some other dimension.

[jwatson]

I don't think it gets ignored at all when the Brood's entire plan came from nightmare. I don't think Scott is being written out of character at all. Scott has chosen genocide before when he had beast create a pathogen to kill the Skrulls. I would argue this doesn't give Jean her moment but it does give Scott his. Jean has a moral clarity about this because she learned from her mistakes. Scott and Lucas clearly haven't.

The plan did not come from nightmare. Jean confirmed this IN the story. The brood reverted to their instinct when some of them were freed from Broo but smarter now because of his influence.

And it was not Jean mistake she said on panel she had to live with the phoenix mistake. Sorry but it can't be both ways. She can't be phoenix but it not be her mistake. The Brood current instinct being to kill you makes it protecting yourself when your wiping out a species that showed up in hordes. When they came after the king egg they ALL come so when they brood come the potential is they all come to feast, so in order to protect yourself from people actively coming at you and yours and already took shots at them is not genocide when that is what the story is telling you is happening. The hope here, the alternative jean has is to enslave them again and hope broo can maintain control. that is not a plan. Her moment was trying to be moral but it came off sounding unsmart to me which the word unsmart sounds as well. ^_^

[OG Storm]

The plan did not come from nightmare. Jean confirmed this IN the story. The brood reverted to their instinct when some of them were freed from Broo but smarter now because of his influence.

And it was not Jean mistake she said on panel she had to live with the phoenix mistake. Sorry but it can't be both ways. She can't be phoenix but it not be her mistake. The Brood current instinct being to kill you makes it protecting yourself when your wiping out a species that showed up in hordes. When they came after the king egg they ALL come so when they brood come the potential is they all come to feast, so in order to protect yourself from people actively coming at you and yours and already took shots at them is not genocide when that is what the story is telling you is happening. The hope here, the alternative jean has is to enslave them again and hope broo can maintain control. that is not a plan. Her moment was trying to be moral but it came off sounding unsmart to me which the word unsmart sounds as well. ^_^

But nightmare still had the initial plan in story for them to use the gates to create more omnicide. That was nightmare. The brood reverted to type but nightmare still had his plan to use the brood to exact revenge. I don't think it's self protection when you have other options to end that doesn't involve genocide. The children of the vault wanted to kill everyone and the X-men put them to sleep instead of choosing genocide. Do the brood deserve to die? Yes they do but should genocide be the first option to deal with a threat like them. I don't think so.

[Havok83]

But won't they starve to death without other life forms to eat? So isn't that essentially sending them to their death slowly and painfully. If not that, it's sacrificing the inhabitants of some other dimension.

The Brood threat isnt bc they are feeding on other life forms. They use other species to reproduce. If thye dont have that then eventually the species will eventually go extinct but the individual Brood is fine

The plan did not come from nightmare. Jean confirmed this IN the story. The brood reverted to their instinct when some of them were freed from Broo but smarter now because of his influence.

And it was not Jean mistake she said on panel she had to live with the phoenix mistake. Sorry but it can't be both ways. She can't be phoenix but it not be her mistake. The Brood current instinct being to kill you makes it protecting yourself when your wiping out a species that showed up in hordes. When they came after the king egg they ALL come so when they brood come the potential is they all come to feast, so in order to protect yourself from people actively coming at you and yours and already took shots at them is not genocide when that is what the story is telling you is happening. The hope here, the alternative jean has is to enslave them again and hope broo can maintain control. that is not a plan. Her moment was trying to be moral but it came off sounding unsmart to me which the word unsmart sounds as well. ^_^

Yes it can. Two things can be right at the same time. She reached out to the Phoenix. She allowed it to clone her to save her friends and therefore bears responsibility with everything it did in her likeness. It had a portion of her soul and was essentially a fragment of her even though it wasnt Jean Prime. Had she been whole and integrated, maybe the DPS wouldnt have happened but it was still a part of her and she has all those memories, experience and emotions that go along with it. Initially she was confused when this was all dropped on her but she generally has accepted as part of her history and she never shies away from bearing responsibility for it. atonement for DPS has been a recurring theme for Jean for decades

[Mercury]

As I said earlier, this argument will have no "winner" or "loser." In the end, despite what Jean's personal feelings on the matter may have been, she did not go against Scott's decision to kill the Brood that broke from Broo's hive mind and attacked and killed humans and mutants alike. She simply asked him not to kill the Brood that remained under Broo's control. And as I have also made clear, I understand where both Jean and Scott were coming from. I don't think either should be mischaracterized as either inept or villainous. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, doing this signifies a lack of nuance in critical thinking or constitutes mean-spirited ad hominem attacks on both characters.

And it was not Jean mistake she said on panel she had to live with the phoenix mistake. Sorry but it can't be both ways. She can't be phoenix but it not be her mistake.

And speaking of nuance, we've rehashed this in Jean's thread several times, and I've come to realize that you are either purposefully overlooking or simply incapable of understanding the psychological nuances inherent in chronic trauma and guilt. Jean has held herself responsible, both personally and by association, several times for the decimation of D'Bari. Perhaps, her most truthful moment on the matter was when she told the Progenitor, "Listen—I killed a planet and you failed me for it. You said I could never come back from that. Whoever I was then, I was out of control."

That said, the fact that she refers to "the Phoenix" when talking about D'Bari's decimation does not unequivocally mean she's absolving herself of blame, nor does it constitute a definitive or factual statement regarding her identity as Phoenix. Hell, I've referred to myself in the third person—"I'm responsible for what that person did..."—in moments of acute pain and stress, and that certainly didn't mean I am not, you know, me. Incidentally, Ororo calls herself a goddess but the evidence, i.e., multiple deaths, suggests she is not a goddess but simply a mortal. Should we start claiming she's lying, being hypocritical, or simply grandstanding?

My answer: I don't reduce the nuances of Ororo's godhood to singular or even multiple events. I know there's more to her than meets the eye. And the same goes for Jean; there's much more to her than meets the eye, as has been evidenced several times over the course of decades.

[jwatson]

As I said earlier, this argument will have no "winner" or "loser." In the end, despite what Jean's personal feelings on the matter may have been, she did not go against Scott's decision to kill the Brood that broke from Broo's hive mind and attacked and killed humans and mutants alike. She simply asked him not to kill the Brood that remained under Broo's control. And as I have also made clear, I understand where both Jean and Scott were coming from. I don't think either should be mischaracterized as either inept or villainous. In fact, as far as I'm concerned, doing this signifies a lack of nuance in critical thinking or constitutes mean-spirited ad hominem attacks on both characters.



And speaking of nuance, we've rehashed this in Jean's thread several times, and I've come to realize that you are either purposefully overlooking or simply incapable of understanding the psychological nuances inherent in chronic trauma and guilt. Jean has held herself responsible, both personally and by association, several times for the decimation of D'Bari. Perhaps, her most truthful moment on the matter was when she told the Progenitor, "Listen—I killed a planet and you failed me for it. You said I could never come back from that. Whoever I was then, I was out of control."

That said, the fact that she refers to "the Phoenix" when talking about D'Bari's decimation does not unequivocally mean she's absolving herself of blame, nor does it constitute a definitive or factual statement regarding her identity as Phoenix. Hell, I've referred to myself in the third person—"I'm responsible for what that person did..."—in moments of acute pain and stress, and that certainly didn't mean I am not, you know, me. Incidentally, Ororo calls herself a goddess but the evidence, i.e., multiple deaths, suggests she is not a goddess but simply a mortal. Should we start claiming she's lying, being hypocritical, or simply grandstanding?

My answer: I don't reduce the nuances of Ororo's godhood to singular or even multiple events. I know there's more to her than meets the eye. And the same goes for Jean; there's much more to her than meets the eye, as has been evidenced several times over the course of decades.

No what i don't understand is flop flop writing in the same era depending on the writer and that doesn't bode well for any character. I did not read most of judgement but if i was a fan jumping on through Captain Marvel i would not know or go look for that to prove that Jean is this and that so maybe it's best you look at me as someone who goes by the current story or is mainly an offline reader as i'm not influenced by or influence anyone's twitter etc,and adheres to the era as much as possible,i do not, will not, go back 10, 20, 30 years to prove something that the character in the current arc is saying is untrue. I may not like it, i may stop reading it, but it is what it is. I i challenge you to find the post i even do that with ororo. goddess or not its if i like the story first.

I didn't like the terrigen cloud, but i didn't sit there and make a thousand posts with a million receipts to show she could move it and i certainly won't do that for jean or go a thousand issues back to judge a current arc and moment when she SHOULD have stepped up in the context and be like "if I could live with this."

And please again don't chop up my posts to refine it into what is easier for you to respond to. I know character limits and such but don't take my context out of my words.

Also and not to you why is there a "loi" and an image of a document next to my specific post. i don't think i've seen that before.

[Havok83]

No what i don't understand is flop flop writing in the same era depending on the writer and that doesn't bode well for any character. I did not read most of judgement but if i was a fan jumping on through Captain Marvel i would not know or go look for that to prove that Jean is this and that so maybe it's best you look at me as someone who goes by the current story or is mainly an offline reader as i'm not influenced by or influence anyone's twitter etc,and adheres to the era as much as possible,i do not, will not, go back 10, 20, 30 years to prove something that the character in the current arc is saying is untrue. I may not like it, i may stop reading it, but it is what it is. I i challenge you to find the post i even do that with ororo. goddess or not its if i like the story first.

I didn't like the terrigen cloud, but i didn't sit there and make a thousand posts with a million receipts to show she could move it and i certainly won't do that for jean or go a thousand issues back to judge a current arc and moment when she SHOULD have stepped up in the context and be like "if I could live with this."

I guess im confused but I dont see any flip flopping when it comes to Jean. I think her history has been rather consistent since she returned

[jwatson]

I guess im confused but I dont see any flip flopping when it comes to Jean. I think her history has been rather consistent since she returned

How far back is one suppose to be. I think the problem is some have this collector mentality like oh yes 30 years of history is there so look back rather than be consistent and i'm not doing that. i'm not going to buy something 60 years ago to see how jean became a telepath if a current story is trying to tell me she is one. it makes no sense unless i'm interested enough to do it and usually i'm really not. i imagine a lot of people are like that too. There just isn't enough time. I have 100 other things to do so i know while sometimes it may even seem like i'm just dropping opinions or what not i read and respond sparingly or take the time to take a day to relax and do it. like i'm not here to defend or offend anything. just not that serious. And i think most people are like that too. Marvel Comics is a casual thing for me (well more like a hobby), it shouldn't have to involve that amount of library research.

[Havok83]

How far back is one suppose to be. I think the problem is some have this collector mentality like oh yes 30 years of history is there so look back rather than be consistent and i'm not doing that. i'm not going to buy something 60 years ago to see how jean became a telepath if a current story is trying to tell me she is one. it makes no sense unless i'm interested enough to do it and usually i'm really not. i imagine a lot of people are like that too. There just isn't enough time. I have 100 other things to do so i know while sometimes it may even seem like i'm just dropping opinions or what not i read and respond sparingly or take the time to take a day to relax and do it. like i'm not here to defend or offend anything. just not that serious. And i think most people are like that too. Comics is a casual thing, it shouldn't have to involve that amount of library research.

What are you talking about going back 30 years? You specifically mentioned this era. Thats like 4-5 years. The Phoenix has not been a focal point for Jean since her return but when it has been brought up, I dont think its been referenced as inconsistently as seems you feel it has

[jwatson]

What are you talking about going back 30 years? You specifically mentioned this era. Thats like 4-5 years

Even in the last 4-5 years how many stories has jean said she was phoenix but then also talked about it as a seperate entity. When it started she was in the marvel girl outfit. I don't know why we are asking about 30 years now when that is all i see in the JEan thread when someone questions why NOW in the current issue when it matters she didn't claim she is phoenix. We are hit with 30 years of this is why, fill in the blank. I sometimes wonder if on the street if someone mentions "oh i just read X-men 21, What did Phoenix do that Jean has to live with" are they going to get accousted with decades of information to make that one moment make sense.

Judgement day just happened and in a private moment in judgement where no one else could hear it jean admits she is phoenix, ok. But here in this story where we are talking about a potential genocide and what could have made her moment with brood strong was a simple "What i did as Phoenix" didn't happen leads to confusion. So we can just leave it at that. It doesn't make sense to me to have it left so ambigious unless you want the same people who are going around in circles to keep doing it and i say have at it if that's what consistent growth is to ya'll. I'm going back to read Thor again.

[Havok83]

Even in the last 4-5 years how many stories has jean said she was phoenix but then also talked about it as a seperate entity. When it started she was in the marvel girl outfit. I don't know why we are asking about 30 years now when that is all i see in the JEan thread when someone questions why NOW in the current issue when it matters she didn't claim she is phoenix. We are hit with 30 years of this is why, fill in the blank. I sometimes wonder if on the street if someone mentions "oh i just read X-men 21, What did Phoenix do that Jean has to live with" are they going to get accousted with decades of information to make that one moment make sense.

Judgement day just happened and in a private moment in judgement where no one else could hear it jean admits she is phoenix, ok. But here in this story where we are talking about a potential genocide and what could have made her moment with brood strong was a simple "What i did as Phoenix" didn't happen leads to confusion. So we can just leave it at that. It doesn't make sense to me to have it left so ambigious unless you want the same people who are going around in circles to keep doing it and i say have at it if that's what consistent growth is to ya'll. I'm going back to read Thor again.

I explained in my previous post that two things can be right at the same time. Phoenix was a seperate entity bc they co-existed as two beings until they were merged. Its accurate for Jean to refer to that as such while also simultaneously acknowledging that it was her. Judgement Day just happened but it was picking up on threads that Duggan laid out in his ongoing. What Gillen did there has since been reflected here and Jean's character arc has been fairly consistent.. Nothing has contradicted the other