So Joan Garrick and Molly Mayne have past away, right?

[CaptCleghorn]

Retconning Alan to be gay is interesting, but it does take some further bits of massaging to make his family "work." This is particularly the case because, as currently portrayed, the Alan of the 1940's is pretty much fully aware of his sexual orientation, even if he's unsurpisingly keeping it on the down low.

The easist of family member to retcon is Molly. In the original telling, she was a criminal foil for Alan who had a crush on him, a lightheated Catwoman to his Batman. They finally got married in the 80's after admitting their love for each other. Retconning her into a McCarthy era marriage of convenience seems like a way to go here. Beards are a thing, and it would make their friendship all the stronger if she was in on it.

Then you have Alan's first wife, Rose Canton, aka the Golden Age Thorn, aka the biological mother of Jade and Obsidian. In the original telling, Alan and Rose had a whirlwind marriage some mumbledeyears before the birth of the kids, which fell apart when the Thorn personality re-emerged and she fled the scene.

If Rose's place in the continuity is to be preserved, there's a LOT of stuff that needs to be unwound. For one thing, the timing is starting to get funky, as Rose giving birth to Jade and Obsidian 25-30 years ago both has her giving birth in her 60's, and Alan (self-aware of his sexual identity since the 1940's) hooking up with a woman in his, what, 70's? Even taking account the Alan's effectively immortal, and whatever shenanigans could be going on with the Golden Age Thorn, it's still damned odd that this couple could come about so late in the newly revised continuity. One could insert a sexual assault into the mix, but that seems tacky in the extreme.

Me, I favor the "Rose and Alan had a doomed affair earlier in his career, when he was still sorting some stuff out. She fled when Thorn emerged (for the first time!), and had a kid. This kid's bloodline would eventually give rise to Jennie and Todd" solution. That's right, I'd sever the parental bond between Jade, Obsidian, and Alan. They could see him as a father figure, but they're actually descedants. 'Cause seriously, it's not like Alan raised them anyway.

Thoughts?

I never really like the Rose/Thorn connection. It seemed like really bad soap opera. But Bendis made Rose immortal in his LSH series. And there have been questions on the board about the original Earth Two Golden Age Rose/Thorn and the one on DC's main Earth. Storywise it may be simpler to just assume the one immortal character in order to maintain an Alan Scott connection. The pregnancy with Jennie and Todd though is, as you state, problematic.

The twins were born 25 or so years ago. They are a major point keeping two long lived characters' continuities from being relatively (for DC Comics anyway) smooth. If Alan is gay as opposed to bisexual, it is less likely he'd consent to being with Rose that late in life. Outside of stolen sperm and artificial insemination, I haven't been able to come (pun unintended) up with a not horrible story explanation. And I'm not sure that would pass in a T+ book. I'm not sure I like severing the parental relationship as it has developed into something in recent years, but I don't have anything better.

[astro@work]

I never really like the Rose/Thorn connection. It seemed like really bad soap opera. But Bendis made Rose immortal in his LSH series. And there have been questions on the board about the original Earth Two Golden Age Rose/Thorn and the one on DC's main Earth. Storywise it may be simpler to just assume the one immortal character in order to maintain an Alan Scott connection. The pregnancy with Jennie and Todd though is, as you state, problematic.

The twins were born 25 or so years ago. They are a major point keeping two long lived characters' continuities from being relatively (for DC Comics anyway) smooth. If Alan is gay as opposed to bisexual, it is less likely he'd consent to being with Rose that late in life. Outside of stolen sperm and artificial insemination, I haven't been able to come (pun unintended) up with a not horrible story explanation. And I'm not sure that would pass in a T+ book. I'm not sure I like severing the parental relationship as it has developed into something in recent years, but I don't have anything better.

I like the "immortal" Rose/Thorn option for two reasons. The first is that with the combined Earths (they weren't combined yet in the original birth story), it eliminates a redundant version of the character.
The second and more important reason is that it makes BOTH parents immortal (not just Alan) and therefore neither parent was creating and birthing kids with their bodies being biologically 60 (ish), although chronologically, yes, 60-ish.

As for the issue of Alan fathering kids at all, while being aware of his sexual identity, a few things to consider. Alan wasn't from the 1990's (or later) when LGBT identities were becoming more acceptable to go public with. Alan was a product of the 1940's when LGBT folks weren't just closeted they were deeply closeted and petrified of being outed. 1940's-1960's gay men were more likely to be suffering through a lousy marriage and probably having occasional marital relations to keep up the facade, while living in fear of being found out. This is a more probable scenario for the Rose Canton marriage. Which leaves the question of Molly, where I'd be more inclined to believe she was in on Alan's secret, rather than oblivious to it. A marriage of senior friends.

[ducklord]

I like the "immortal" Rose/Thorn option for two reasons. The first is that with the combined Earths (they weren't combined yet in the original birth story), it eliminates a redundant version of the character.
The second and more important reason is that it makes BOTH parents immortal (not just Alan) and therefore neither parent was creating and birthing kids with their bodies being biologically 60 (ish), although chronologically, yes, 60-ish.

As for the issue of Alan fathering kids at all, while being aware of his sexual identity, a few things to consider. Alan wasn't from the 1990's (or later) when LGBT identities were becoming more acceptable to go public with. Alan was a product of the 1940's when LGBT folks weren't just closeted they were deeply closeted and petrified of being outed. 1940's-1960's gay men were more likely to be suffering through a lousy marriage and probably having occasional marital relations to keep up the facade, while living in fear of being found out. This is a more probable scenario for the Rose Canton marriage. Which leaves the question of Molly, where I'd be more inclined to believe she was in on Alan's secret, rather than oblivious to it. A marriage of senior friends.

As someone else mentioned, I'm not even all *that* inclined to keep Rose/Thorn around as a part of Jennie and Todd's origin in the first place. She doesn't particularly add to their power set, she didn't raise them, and they only really encountered her once (I think) before she died. One could easily retcon her completely out of the picture.

And go ahead, ask me how much I want Bendis's "the Bronze Age Rose/Thorn is now immortal" story to be picked up again, much less folded into the Golde Age Rose/Thorn. Go ahead, I dare you Freakin' Bendis.

As for Alan suffering through a loveless marriage of some sort that produces Jennie and Todd - I can *almost* squint and imagine it back in the 50's and 60's, even though it runs somewhat at odds with the current portrayal of 1940's Alan living true to himself (if secretly). But the kids, barring some yet-to-be-revealed temporal shenanigans*, were likely born in, like, the 90's, when Alan was in his 70's. This seems a realllllly late date for such behavior.

For kids that weren't actually raised by their super-parents, I'm okay with making them descedants.

[Will Evans]

Jade and Obsidian's age is definitely now a problem - the same goes for Jesse Quick and Hourman, and Atom Smasher. All supposed to be in their 20s (around the same age as Dick Grayson's Titans) but children of golden age heroes. At least Cyclone is the GRANDDAUGHTER of Red Tornado, and Stargirl is fine as Pat is both time displaced and only her stepfather.

Less so for Hourman. It was said Rex Tyler got with a younger generation woman to have Rick. Though by now, Rick’s mom with the sliding timescale, would go from a boomer to a Generation X’er.

[Kaijudo]

One idea I've always had for dealing with Infinity Inc. would be to put them into the sliding timeline of the DCU so that they were the main superteam in the 1980s, between the JSA's retirement and the debut of the League-era heroes. Of that original line-up, only a handful remain and the same hoops that the JSA jump through to stay young could be applied to them (Jade and Obsidian have Alan's magical DNA, Atom-Smasher has some super-science atomic wonkiness going on). Yolanda and Beth were killed and then brought back somehow in the latest universe reboot, so they're squared away. That really only leaves Hourman, and as someone else said Rex could have sired him later in life and he joined the team much later (or maybe the Hourman legacy involving the robotic time-traveler could play a role).

[MajorHoy]

. . . And go ahead, ask me how much I want Bendis's "the Bronze Age Rose/Thorn is now immortal" story to be picked up again, much less folded into the Golde Age Rose/Thorn. Go ahead, I dare you Freakin' Bendis.

Never read that mess, and to me it makes no sense because Bronze Age Rose/Thorn had no superpowers (unless you consider her split personality one).
She was an ordinary woman who's father was killed by The 100, and to cope with this she became The Thorn but never recalled being The Thorn when she was Rose.

[Thor-Ul]

I never really like the Rose/Thorn connection. It seemed like really bad soap opera. But Bendis made Rose immortal in his LSH series. And there have been questions on the board about the original Earth Two Golden Age Rose/Thorn and the one on DC's main Earth. Storywise it may be simpler to just assume the one immortal character in order to maintain an Alan Scott connection. The pregnancy with Jennie and Todd though is, as you state, problematic.

The twins were born 25 or so years ago. They are a major point keeping two long lived characters' continuities from being relatively (for DC Comics anyway) smooth. If Alan is gay as opposed to bisexual, it is less likely he'd consent to being with Rose that late in life. Outside of stolen sperm and artificial insemination, I haven't been able to come (pun unintended) up with a not horrible story explanation. And I'm not sure that would pass in a T+ book. I'm not sure I like severing the parental relationship as it has developed into something in recent years, but I don't have anything better.

I like the "immortal" Rose/Thorn option for two reasons. The first is that with the combined Earths (they weren't combined yet in the original birth story), it eliminates a redundant version of the character.
The second and more important reason is that it makes BOTH parents immortal (not just Alan) and therefore neither parent was creating and birthing kids with their bodies being biologically 60 (ish), although chronologically, yes, 60-ish.

As for the issue of Alan fathering kids at all, while being aware of his sexual identity, a few things to consider. Alan wasn't from the 1990's (or later) when LGBT identities were becoming more acceptable to go public with. Alan was a product of the 1940's when LGBT folks weren't just closeted they were deeply closeted and petrified of being outed. 1940's-1960's gay men were more likely to be suffering through a lousy marriage and probably having occasional marital relations to keep up the facade, while living in fear of being found out. This is a more probable scenario for the Rose Canton marriage. Which leaves the question of Molly, where I'd be more inclined to believe she was in on Alan's secret, rather than oblivious to it. A marriage of senior friends.

Rose Canton and Rose Forrest are two different characters. They are in the same pattern of Don't make a Hawkman with her and start mixing two different characters in a mess. Rose Canton, golden age Thorn is dead. Rose Forrest, a Metropolis vigilante is active in adventure but they never had any connection beyond that.
And the sooner any Bendis influence is erased, the better. Because I don't bet for the Bendisboot to endureso much.

[Psy-lock]

Trying to explain how everything fits with the JSA is such a headache. They really should exist on their own Earth.

[Jon Clark]

Part of the back-story with the Golden Age Rose becoming mother to Jade and Obsidian was that she had spent time on Reform Island being rehabilitated by the Amazons. Depending on how tied to Diana/Hippolyta the JSA is at the moment if that Reform Island stint still happened then possibly Rose/Thorn would have aged slower during it. And Alan (plus i think Molly) were de-aged for a blink in the 1990's comics (GL Quarterly?). Play with those things a bit and there are possibilities for reworking the ages when Jade and Obsidian were conceived.

And since Atom-Smasher has been brought up- he was already the son of Al Pratt's 1940's godkid- not that hard to add in another generation or two between Atom meeting infant Terri in WW II and Al. Heck go with the original Infinity Inc as 1980's characters and make Nuklon the dad of Atom-Smasher. Beth and Yolanda get killed in the 1990's by Eclipso and just restored to life. Todd and Jennie get the time jump when Infinity disbanded (along with Rick). The rest (Hector, Lyta, Norda, Huntress) aren't really part of the present and can easily be made part of the past.

[CaptCleghorn]

Rose Canton and Rose Forrest are two different characters. They are in the same pattern of Don't make a Hawkman with her and start mixing two different characters in a mess. Rose Canton, golden age Thorn is dead. Rose Forrest, a Metropolis vigilante is active in adventure but they never had any connection beyond that.
And the sooner any Bendis influence is erased, the better. Because I don't bet for the Bendisboot to endureso much.

Which would be great except for the fact that Rose Canton gave birth to Alan's kids. If she was a character who lived in Golden Age times, the likelihood of her giving birth to two people aged in their twenties today is very suspect. Outside of making Rose Forrest the mother which makes Rose Canton an irrelevant footnote effectively putting all importance on Rose Forrest, do you have a possible explanation of Alan's baby mama?

Part of the back-story with the Golden Age Rose becoming mother to Jade and Obsidian was that she had spent time on Reform Island being rehabilitated by the Amazons. Depending on how tied to Diana/Hippolyta the JSA is at the moment if that Reform Island stint still happened then possibly Rose/Thorn would have aged slower during it. And Alan (plus i think Molly) were de-aged for a blink in the 1990's comics (GL Quarterly?). Play with those things a bit and there are possibilities for reworking the ages when Jade and Obsidian were conceived.

And a Paradise Island stint could work.

[Will Evans]

There’s also Golden Age Black Canary and giving birth to currently 30 something Dinah.

[Digifiend]

Dinah should be in her early 40s - yes, she's younger than Green Arrow, but he's probably older than most of his generation (the exceptions, of course, being Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, and Plastic Man, who all have extended lifespans). Remember, she's old enough that she's basically seen as a stepmother to Roy Harper, who should be at least 30 himself. Of course being in her 40s is still too young to be the daughter of someone who was an adult in the 1940s as her Mom, Dinah Drake, would have had to be in her 60s when Dinah Laurel Lance was born.

[MajorHoy]

Dinah should be in her early 40s - yes, she's younger than Green Arrow, but he's probably older than most of his generation (the exceptions, of course, being Martian Manhunter, Wonder Woman, and Plastic Man, who all have extended lifespans). Remember, she's old enough that she's basically seen as a stepmother to Roy Harper, who should be at least 30 himself. Of course being in her 40s is still too young to be the daughter of someone who was an adult in the 1940s as her Mom, Dinah Drake, would have had to be in her 60s when Dinah Laurel Lance was born.

We still have to wait and see if/when DC ever explains the current relationship between Golden Age Black Canary and modern Black Canary. Remember, modern Black Canary wasn't the daughter of a superhero back in the New52, and I don't know if the Rebirth-and-beyond stories have done anything about clarifying present-day Dinah's past.

[MajorHoy]

Part of the back-story with the Golden Age Rose becoming mother to Jade and Obsidian was that she had spent time on Reform Island being rehabilitated by the Amazons. Depending on how tied to Diana/Hippolyta the JSA is at the moment if that Reform Island stint still happened then possibly Rose/Thorn would have aged slower during it.

The bit about Rose Canton and the Amazons was revealed back in an issue of Superman's Girl Friend, Lois Lane in the early 1970s. I mentioned it in an old Golden Age Thorn (Rose Canton) Appreciation thread.

After that, she showed up All-Star Comics #72 (May-June 1978)


A few years later, Roy Thomas used her in Infinity Inc.

[CaptCleghorn]

We still have to wait and see if/when DC ever explains the current relationship between Golden Age Black Canary and modern Black Canary. Remember, modern Black Canary wasn't the daughter of a superhero back in the New52, and I don't know if the Rebirth-and-beyond stories have done anything about clarifying present-day Dinah's past.

You are correct in Canary being a continuity mess. The mother/daughter relationship is becoming stretched out as time passes. I can also see potential editorial disagreement in deciding who gets the call whether it's JSA or Green Arrow.in deciding (if anyone does at all) Dinah's history.