Jay Garrick 6 Issue Mini Series by Jeremy Adams!!!

[The Lucky One]

Cause Judy obviously looks up to her dad and came from a time where he was the big man speedster. But now not only has Jay been surpassed by 2 men unrelated to their family but on a massive scale, Barry and Wally being borderline Gods compared to Jay.

Uh… are they? Jay’s older now, obviously, but back in the Golden Age he could time travel with precision just by running fast along a beach (without even needing a treadmill). In “The Return of Barry Allen,” Professor Zoom admitted Jay might actually be faster than him, even though he (Thawne) had the edge in endurance.

Admittedly I haven’t read The Flash since pre-Flashpoint, so it’s certainly possible Wally and Barry have been amped up in the last decade plus. But at least in the Post-Crisis universe, the difference between Wally and Jay was no more substantial than that of a healthy twenty-something racing his in-shape grandfather… he’s going to win, of course, but not lap the old timer.

[exile001]

Re: 52 - you mean like Kate Kane Batwoman, the cousin of Batman and the original Batwoman?

Sure, but that was Rucka. I'm talking like Zachary Zatara, Young Frankenstein, Infinity inc (which had a great limited series), M'gann M'orzz, Offspring, etc. Not saying they're all bad characters but it certainly was a sudden influx (I realised some actually first appeared in Teen Titans but during 52).

[Mantis-Ray]

Uh… are they? Jay’s older now, obviously, but back in the Golden Age he could time travel with precision just by running fast along a beach (without even needing a treadmill). In “The Return of Barry Allen,” Professor Zoom admitted Jay might actually be faster than him, even though he (Thawne) had the edge in endurance.

Admittedly I haven’t read The Flash since pre-Flashpoint, so it’s certainly possible Wally and Barry have been amped up in the last decade plus. But at least in the Post-Crisis universe, the difference between Wally and Jay was no more substantial than that of a healthy twenty-something racing his in-shape grandfather… he’s going to win, of course, but not lap the old timer.

I always thought it was a case that even age difference aside Barry and Wally are just way, way faster than Jay.

[The Lucky One]

I always thought it was a case that even age difference aside Barry and Wally are just way, way faster than Jay.

Not according to the actual comics, no. (Pre-Flashpoint, at least.) Jay hasn’t had an ongoing in decades, so he doesn’t get as many “feats,” but he was generally depicted in the Post-Crisis years as being just a smidge slower due to age. I mean, if he’s faster than Thawne, and Thawne is roughly the same speed as Barry…

[Will Evans]

Sure, but that was Rucka. I'm talking like Zachary Zatara, Young Frankenstein, Infinity inc (which had a great limited series), M'gann M'orzz, Offspring, etc. Not saying they're all bad characters but it certainly was a sudden influx (I realised some actually first appeared in Teen Titans but during 52).

Zachary Zatara, Cyclone, Lightning, and Judomaster first appeared in Kingdom Come by Ross and Waid.
Johns just brought them into the present DCU.
Offspring first appeared in the Kingdom Come spin-off The Kingdom, score Johns brought him to present DCU.

[j9ac9k]

Not according to the actual comics, no. (Pre-Flashpoint, at least.) Jay hasn’t had an ongoing in decades, so he doesn’t get as many “feats,” but he was generally depicted in the Post-Crisis years as being just a smidge slower due to age. I mean, if he’s faster than Thawne, and Thawne is roughly the same speed as Barry…

Just out of curiosity, how was Jay's speed depicted in the Golden Age? (I've never read any of his stories from then) Was he just speedy like Quicksilver or did they go nuts with it and have him do crazy fantastical things with his speed?

[andersonh1]

Just out of curiosity, how was Jay's speed depicted in the Golden Age? (I've never read any of his stories from then) Was he just speedy like Quicksilver or did they go nuts with it and have him do crazy fantastical things with his speed?

It varies. He starts out running at slower rates of super-speed and only after a while does he start hitting the speed of light. The early comics depict him leaving gusty wind in his wake, and freaked out people commenting on it, with hats being blown off and other effects. There's definitely a humorous side to the exercise of his speed powers. He would make himself effectively invisible by moving back and forth in roughly the same spot so fast he was invisible, and in the oddest display of power he would throw people through walls "like a straw impaling a door by a hurricane." He likes to strip the bad guys down to their underwear and leave them at the top of skyscrapers or otherwise use speed to prank them and get them to talk. I've read the two Golden Age Flash Archives, and any other reprinted GA Flash story in the various anniversary volumes that get published, and the late 40s are starting to acquire a Silver Age feel when the book is cancelled, down to Carmine Infantino drawing some of the issues. In his final story he moves so fast he makes it look like he's in multiple places at the same time. He can vibrate through walls sometimes, which he could not do early on. It feels to me from what I've been able to read as if the concept of a super-speed character and his powers grew and developed quite a bit over the decade of the 1940s.

[The Lucky One]

Just out of curiosity, how was Jay's speed depicted in the Golden Age? (I've never read any of his stories from then) Was he just speedy like Quicksilver or did they go nuts with it and have him do crazy fantastical things with his speed?

Like andersonh1 said, it really varied. They weren’t big on feats back in those days, so he was basically as fast as any given story required. He didn’t face a super-speed adversary until his very last solo Golden Age story (The Rival) in Flash Comics #104, and he never met Johnny Quick in the actual Golden Age.

In some of the recovered art from “The Will of William Wilson” (the unpublished GA Justice Society story that Marv Wolfman rescued from DC’s incinerator), Flash is sent to recover Genghis Khan’s sword, so he finds a sandy beach that’s “long and flat enough for me to get up sufficient speed to go back into the past” and runs to the year 1200. (Or at least he means to… he actually overshoots by a couple decades and saves a young Genghis Khan. I guess like Barry and Wally years later, Jay would’ve needed the cosmic treadmill for pinpoint time-traveling accuracy.)

In “The Return of Barry Allen,” Jay’s beating the Reverse Flash in a one-on-one fight until Thawne fights dirty, resorting to a psychological trick. So even as an older man, Jay can hang with the younger speedsters.

[Leander1102]

I am interested in this and also the Alan Scott GL book. Do I need to know or read something before I can get started with these?

[MajorHoy]

I am interested in this and also the Alan Scott GL book. Do I need to know or read something before I can get started with these?

For Jay's book, if you read 2021's Stargirl Spring Break Special and the six-issue 2022-23 series Stargirl: The Lost Children, you'll have just about all the set-up for Judy Garrick.
With Alan, the less you've read about him, the better off you'll be. (Though I think there may have been a story in DC's 2023 Pride one-shot that may be connected to current Alan?)

[andersonh1]

Like andersonh1 said, it really varied. They weren’t big on feats back in those days, so he was basically as fast as any given story required. He didn’t face a super-speed adversary until his very last solo Golden Age story (The Rival) in Flash Comics #104, and he never met Johnny Quick in the actual Golden Age.

In some of the recovered art from “The Will of William Wilson” (the unpublished GA Justice Society story that Marv Wolfman rescued from DC’s incinerator), Flash is sent to recover Genghis Khan’s sword, so he finds a sandy beach that’s “long and flat enough for me to get up sufficient speed to go back into the past” and runs to the year 1200. (Or at least he means to… he actually overshoots by a couple decades and saves a young Genghis Khan. I guess like Barry and Wally years later, Jay would’ve needed the cosmic treadmill for pinpoint time-traveling accuracy.)

In “The Return of Barry Allen,” Jay’s beating the Reverse Flash in a one-on-one fight until Thawne fights dirty, resorting to a psychological trick. So even as an older man, Jay can hang with the younger speedsters.

In Flash Comics 101, the Flash travels into the future and we get this caption explaining it:

"By vibrating faster than 186,000 miles per second, the speed of light, the Flash is no longer subject to the scientific principles of this planet. No longer bound to the steady flow of time -- he can move forward or backward through the time dimension!"

He doesn't even run to hit that speed in that story, he just stands in place and vibrates his molecules and travels in time. And he arrives precisely where he wants to be. So his skill at time travel definitely varies from story to story.

[Leander1102]

For Jay's book, if you read 2021's Stargirl Spring Break Special and the six-issue 2022-23 series Stargirl: The Lost Children, you'll have just about all the set-up for Judy Garrick.
With Alan, the less you've read about him, the better off you'll be. (Though I think there may have been a story in DC's 2023 Pride one-shot that may be connected to current Alan?)

Thank you very much. I will look for the trade so I can start with Jay’s book. Much appreciated!

[exile001]

Zachary Zatara, Cyclone, Lightning, and Judomaster first appeared in Kingdom Come by Ross and Waid.
Johns just brought them into the present DCU.
Offspring first appeared in the Kingdom Come spin-off The Kingdom, score Johns brought him to present DCU.

I'm well aware, but that doesn't negate my point that they were haphazardly dropped into continuity out of nowhere and en masse. In KC, it was somewhat explained by the time jump and it's out of continuity status. Here it's just a character dump that has problems as Zatanna, who we've followed for decades, now has a nephew with her father's look and powers that she's never mentioned before.

Personally, I think this kind of character addition is pretty lazy (yep, even Damian and Jon) and doing it in batches just makes it worse.

[MajorHoy]

. . . Personally, I think this kind of character addition is pretty lazy (yep, even Damian and Jon) and doing it in batches just makes it worse.

At least Damian and Jon weren't just dumped on us out of nowhere with pretend insertions in to back issues where those stories never happened.
Damian was based on an old Batman story and Jon was born in Convergence: Superman #2 and then appeared in the 8-issue series Superman: Lois and Clark.
(Now, Jon's aging-up crap from Bendis is a different mess.)

[CaptCleghorn]

Not according to the actual comics, no. (Pre-Flashpoint, at least.) Jay hasn’t had an ongoing in decades, so he doesn’t get as many “feats,” but he was generally depicted in the Post-Crisis years as being just a smidge slower due to age. I mean, if he’s faster than Thawne, and Thawne is roughly the same speed as Barry…

This is similar to the "Who's stronger: Kal-L or Kal-El?" question. Historically, Earth Two's Superman was considered to be not as strong as the Earth One version, but one of the later pseudo-crises had the original Superman stronger. I'm just going to consider the Flashes to be fast enough so that a simple linear comparison becomes impossible.