The Flash (comics) vs Thanos (comics)

[Beadle]

For me the Thanos Quest feats imply that a) he just keeps on trucking regardless of what happens to him, as though it doesn’t matter at all, b) an almost rubber-band-snap-back response afterwards. Like stuff starts to happen to Thanos, but it never actually takes because the combination of his Eternal physiology, other powers, ridiculous willpower, and Death’s blessing just respond with “Aaaaaaaaaand nope.”

I can see people’s take that it happens and he has to subsequently force it back, which wouldn’t necessarily work with speed steals (because his reactions to force it back would be massively slowed), but to me it just feels more like “I see what you’re trying to do to me on a fundamental, existential level, but I choose not to have a single **** to give about such trivial things.”

[Sharpandpointies]

For me the Thanos Quest feats imply that a) he just keeps on trucking regardless of what happens to him, as though it doesn’t matter at all, b) an almost rubber-band-snap-back response afterwards. Like stuff starts to happen to Thanos, but it never actually takes because the combination of his Eternal physiology, other powers, ridiculous willpower, and Death’s blessing just respond with “Aaaaaaaaaand nope.”

I can see people’s take that it happens and he has to subsequently force it back, which wouldn’t necessarily work with speed steals (because his reactions to force it back would be massively slowed), but to me it just feels more like “I see what you’re trying to do to me on a fundamental, existential level, but I choose not to have a single **** to give about such trivial things.”

This is one of the two takes I lean toward, and makes the most sense to me as well. ^_^

[Beadle]

Agreed. Mainly because if he just forced it all back and THEN kept going, he wouldn’t be providing the narrative contemporaneously throughout (which I definitely think he’s doing). He’s thinking/saying this stuff WHILE his head is shattered/melted/turned-to-crystal or whatever, not after recovering his form.

He’s just saying “Meh. This is nothing to me. I’ve had more dangerous Mexican food.”

[Beadle]

Note: Thanos eating Mexican food is not a prompt for the Thanostoilet picture.

[Sharpandpointies]

Agreed. Mainly because if he just forced it all back and THEN kept going, he wouldn’t be providing the narrative contemporaneously throughout (which I definitely think he’s doing). He’s thinking/saying this stuff WHILE his head is shattered/melted/turned-to-crystal or whatever, not after recovering his form.

He’s just saying “Meh. This is nothing to me. I’ve had more dangerous Mexican food.”

*opens mouth*

Note: Thanos eating Mexican food is not a prompt for the Thanostoilet picture.

.....

*closes mouth*

[big_adventure]

For me the Thanos Quest feats imply that a) he just keeps on trucking regardless of what happens to him, as though it doesn’t matter at all, b) an almost rubber-band-snap-back response afterwards. Like stuff starts to happen to Thanos, but it never actually takes because the combination of his Eternal physiology, other powers, ridiculous willpower, and Death’s blessing just respond with “Aaaaaaaaaand nope.”

I can see people’s take that it happens and he has to subsequently force it back, which wouldn’t necessarily work with speed steals (because his reactions to force it back would be massively slowed), but to me it just feels more like “I see what you’re trying to do to me on a fundamental, existential level, but I choose not to have a single **** to give about such trivial things.”

This is the take I subscribe to as well, as previously presented in this thread. To sublimate everything:

1. We still haven't seen evidence of Flash speedstealing someone as powerful as Thanos, like, at all. "Planet" level is as good as it gets, and "planet" level, to Thanos, is the aforementioned "I've had worse Mexican food than this."

2. Even if he can, now show me proof of him doing it to beings on that level who can function just fine through, and reverse harmlessly, full-on reality warping that hollows out the brain or transforms the being into glass. That's a pretty large step up, to me, over speedstealing.

[Jcogginsa]

All of this is a much larger and more complicated series of rationalizations/interpretations than 'Thanos, on panel, doesn't seem particularly bothered by any of this, bounces it all, and states that outside influences have a minimal effect upon him.'

You asked 'what logic?' and cited molecular control being brought up. I answered that question. I'm pretty cool with my own interpretation despite your assertion that it can be 'completely discounted', though obviously mileage may vary, as I have stated.

It's not particular long or complex. A third of it is just a quote from the comic itself.

The only reason it looks more complex is because I am making an attempt to actually explain what is happening, while you are just giving thanos a new power he does not demonstrate elsewhere.

I also offered a third explanation that is just as short as yours via an EDIT.

Also, you didn't really answer my question. I asked how he would undo the effects of the speed steal, and you answered that it wouldn't effect him in the first place.

Agreed. Mainly because if he just forced it all back and THEN kept going, he wouldn’t be providing the narrative contemporaneously throughout (which I definitely think he’s doing). He’s thinking/saying this stuff WHILE his head is shattered/melted/turned-to-crystal or whatever, not after recovering his form.

He’s just saying “Meh. This is nothing to me. I’ve had more dangerous Mexican food.”

1. And? Him thinking it throughout does nothing to contradict my explanation.

2.So basically, you're taking single line of Thanos dialogue, and making that more important than both the art and the rest of the rest of Thanos dialogue. If this really is nothing to him, why was he afraid of doing it? Is Thanos such a bitch that facing the slightest bit of dificulty is a spiritually taxing experience?

This is the take I subscribe to as well, as previously presented in this thread. To sublimate everything:

1. We still haven't seen evidence of Flash speedstealing someone as powerful as Thanos, like, at all. "Planet" level is as good as it gets, and "planet" level, to Thanos, is the aforementioned "I've had worse Mexican food than this."

2. Even if he can, now show me proof of him doing it to beings on that level who can function just fine through, and reverse harmlessly, full-on reality warping that hollows out the brain or transforms the being into glass. That's a pretty large step up, to me, over speedstealing.

1. Because There's no reason why Power level should be relevant in this case? Durability and offensive power is irrelvent to speed stealing. The limitation of it that we've scene is that Speed Steal doesn't work on things that are faster than the stealer, and per the current Mod ruling Thanos isn't faster.

2. And to me, it's not a step up at all. Most of that is just a healing factor, and the rest is just transmutation. Both of those things are already part of the pre-established powerset posessed by Thanos' species. There's no hard evidence of any kind of "undo reality warping" power. When Wolverine heals from a gun shot, we don't say he's bullet proof.

A Speed steal isn't something that that can be fixed by transmutation or a healing factor, so I see no reason that Thanos would be able to undo it.

[Aura Blaize]

Here's the thing. Speed steal doesn't actually harm Thanos like some of these effects do. Chances are he might not even notice because to him, he'd still be moving at normal speed.

Case in point, in the Flash comics, the Fraction recently attacked Earth and slowed everyone to a crawl. No one was actually hurt by it and in fact, everything seemed normal to them. The Flashes weren't affected because the Speed Force automatically kicked their speed into overdrive to match the Fraction's. If Thanos' mind is slowed down like the rest of him, what's to say he even realizes something's wrong?

[Cronus]

Can't he just speed steal him? I know Thanos has that "complete control over his molecules," stuff but I don't see how that overcomes Barry just draining him of all kinetic energy and leaving him timelocked.

It’s not a matter of whether or not he can speed steal him. He might be able to. The better question is will it stick? Another question is will speed steal stop Thanos from thinking? Let’s just say, “speed steal” was one of the effects Thanos was going through in the panel along with the other weird effects. What makes you believe Thanos would not be able to think still and TP any version of Flash? Based on the same scan from Thanos Quest, what makes you think even if speed steal could cause Thanos’ mind to freeze, where the other magical effects could not, he wouldn’t just bounce it like the other effects and then Flash is in big trouble?

We can see him being melted and exploded and returning to normal afterwards and he notes "This would kill normal beings," but he's presumably able reassemble himself and undo the damage once he leaves that dimension.

You presume wrong because that is not what the next page shows. The narration on the next page clearly says, “My journey ends dramatically.” And this is neither here nor there anyway, since the scan in question shows him bouncing back from the effects almost immediately, while going through the dimensions. Again, all the while, maintaining clear, normal congnition.

He says it "has a minimal effect," and it's still melting his face off, whatever resistances he has are not enough to stop it completely. Like, I don't see how this is excellent evidence of Thanos being able to completely prevent foreign effects impacting his body and normal processes because the feat shows the opposite of that.

This is not the issue at all. Not only does the scan show him bouncing four different physical effects resulting from different magical dimensions almost as soon as they occur, it shows him thinking throughout the entire process. Again, what makes you believe that if Thanos can not only bounce the effects of reality warping, he won’t bounce something less like speed steal?

My take is that the Thanos Quest feat shows that Thanos cannot stop esoteric effects, in this case reality warping, from having some effect on him.

Again, not really the main concern. The main issue here is despite the very physical effects of reality warping, melting, turning into dust, turning into crystal, etc.. he can still maintain clear thinking ability. Which means he is still a threat to shut down Flash’s mind.

He is turned into crystal, he is hollowed out and shattered, etc. Now, of the effects shown, none of them seem to interact with his mind

You mean aside from the fact that his mind is in his head? Since when did this become a thing? Scans to indicate that Thanos’ mind is not in his head?

but then none of them, as far as we know, are targeting the function of his mind specifically in the way that Speed Drain would.

Yes, we do know. His face, which includes his head and brain, are clearly affected? And the only reason speed steal “targets” the function of Thanos’ mind is because board rules dictate he will use what is most likely to give him a win. Unfortunately, the evidence strongly suggests it won’t.

Thanos made of crystal would still think and react at the same speed as conventional Thanos.

..and thinking at normal speeds is all that is needed for Thanos to mind wipe Flash…

Speed Manipulation, draining and lending, has a specific effect as it specifically slows the target and their mental processes.

If the user of the speed force wants to do that specifically, then sure. You make it sound like that is the default all the time for speed force users?

Ergo, while I think that Thanos would be perfectly capable of bouncing the effect, my feeling is that the time it would take him to think whatever "Nope," would take longer because, while he is effected, his processes are slowed.

Not if you’re basing your logic on the scan being thrown around from Thanos Quest. Physically, he bounces the effect almost right away. Mentally, he is completely unaffected.

This could, in my mind, lead to a ten count.

Mmm, no not really, no. The burden of proof (as mentioned) is squarely on Flash to prove that he can affect the cognition of Thanos in any way of a guy who bounces reality warping, with at least four different effects.

In terms of what Flash has speed-drained, Wally has done it to an entire planet –

I’ll stop you here. We don’t know how much kinetic energy Wally drained in JLA 75. In fact, everyone on the planet was moving in The Human Race, including 5 speedsters, to add to Wally’s speed against the cosmic gamblers. And no one on the planet froze as a result. They were all still moving. So, drain the kinetic energy of an entire planet? Not sold on that. Mitigate some of that to prevent global catastrophe? Maybe? Still seems like an outlier. Even for Wally.

to offset the stress of Superman, Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter dragging it around during Obsidian Age - he's done it to multiple fellow speedsters, done it to Amazo when he had the same powerset as him. He does not, to my knowledge, have the feats of draining someone with Thanos' specific kind of all-purpose resistances.

Yep. True. So why is the burden of proof on Thanos to prove that he can resist speed steal and not the other way around?

Further to that, Barry is the current main Flash as I understand it (I'm hardly up to date) and, from looking through a few more recent respect threads, he doesn't seem to have many if any speed draining feats to his name.

So, even less plausible for him to use it effectively, if at all, on Thanos with any sort of effect. Even more, an effect that lasts longer than we see reality warping effects affecting Thanos in the scan in question.

[Cronus]

So this could be a moo point. A cow's opinion.

My end takeaway is that Wally, specifically, could likely speedsteal Thanos long enough to get a ten count. Based on the Thanos Quest feat alone, there's not a great case for Thanos to be able to completely ignore it in my opinion.

Wally is more likely, since speed steal was mainly his thing, but again, proof that speed steal is more powerful than the four different effects we see on Thanos in the magical realm? Hate to sound like a broken record, but a feat like the one from Thanos Quest forces the burden of proof on Wally. As an aside, as I recall, Wally had difficulty using his vibrational abilities when magic was involved. Thanos here is affected by magic physically, through different dimensions, (again), but never loses clear, coherence. Not once.

In a scenario battle with count out off the table, Thanos will overcome it and telepathically zorch him into the ground.

And using the feat from TQ as a platform, Thanos bounces the effects almost right away. I don’t think a 10 count is going to happen here.

I went and read Thanos Quest to see if there's any more context to give an indication of what's going on with Thanos in this trek through the nexus of realities and there is not. He does smash through a dimensional barrier-looking thing made of his own face on the next page but that's about it.
I think we're getting down to opinion because there isn't really a clear deciding factor.

Only as much as we don’t see any narration to the affect that speed steal is bouncing, because we will never find anything of that sort. I get it, you won’t find that kind of proof, but to me, that’s an extreme confirmation bias you’ve established for Thanos to overcome, while Flash seems to be getting a free pass.

Thanos doesn't have feats of total immunity and,

He doesn’t need them. What we see is him bouncing the effects almost right away. And never once is he unable to think clearly.

assuming his self-reconstruction is thought activated,

Why would we assume this, hmm? Is that what the scan shows? Or is it simply a reflex of his new found immortality?

the Speed Steal would directly attack the mechanism that allows him to reconstruct/no-sell because, if the speed steal takes any effect, the thought will take longer to happen.

Scans for this? And again, how does this trump, “I bounce the effects of reality warping, while thinking clearly the whole time.”?

Because of this, I think it might take him a little bit to have the thought "Nope,"

If you’re thought process is based on the TQ scans, I don’t know how you arrive at this conclusion.

I went through a Thanos respect thread to see if I could find anything else and, while he's got a lot of regeneration stuff, a lot of resisting damage and so on, he doesn't have any other feats like the Thanos Quest one that we've been discussing.

Why would he need more than the one? How many times does a guy, who gets kicked out of death, by a multi-universal entity like Lady Death, need more than one?

On the flipside, Flash [Wally] doesn't have feats of coming up against someone with the level of dynamic resistances that Thanos has. He just flatly hasn't done that thing the times he's come against people of Thanos' kind of scale. He did bust up Antimonitor's armour that one time but that ultimately accomplished nothing beyond and didn't involve speed draining.

That was a shared feat. Anti-Monitor’s armor was cracked from the combined attack of the JLA.

So, it's a bit of a cointoss for my money. Neither side has, to my knowledge, an ironclad case for resistance/effectiveness that properly meshes together for a clear answer to the fundamental question.

And given that Thanos has never faced speed steal specifically, you won’t find an iron clad case. But if neither side has an iron clad case, why are you leaning toward Wally (who likely isn’t even in this fight)? The only feat that has any bearing on whether any version of Flash could speed steal is the one from TQ, and you’ve dismissed it for reasons that are unclear to me.

In light of everything I've looked at, I think that Flash can win by 10 count in the arena but loses in a scenario with no count out because nothing he does will stick long term.

Disagree completely. The only relevant scan is the one of Thanos being affected by reality warping, at least four different “planes of existence”, and almost immediately bouncing back, while being able to clearly think through the whole thing. I don’t see speed steal working, even permanently, were it to have any effect at all, where several different planes of reality in the magical realm failed to measure up in a permanent way, much less on his ability to think throughout the ordeal.

[Nik Hasta]

I figured I'd mostly said my piece in this thread and had nothing more to say? There a particular reason you're choosing to line-by-line answer both my posts back to back?

[big_adventure]

It's not particular long or complex. A third of it is just a quote from the comic itself.

The only reason it looks more complex is because I am making an attempt to actually explain what is happening, while you are just giving thanos a new power he does not demonstrate elsewhere.

I also offered a third explanation that is just as short as yours via an EDIT.

Also, you didn't really answer my question. I asked how he would undo the effects of the speed steal, and you answered that it wouldn't effect him in the first place.



1. And? Him thinking it throughout does nothing to contradict my explanation.

2.So basically, you're taking single line of Thanos dialogue, and making that more important than both the art and the rest of the rest of Thanos dialogue. If this really is nothing to him, why was he afraid of doing it? Is Thanos such a bitch that facing the slightest bit of dificulty is a spiritually taxing experience?



1. Because There's no reason why Power level should be relevant in this case? Durability and offensive power is irrelvent to speed stealing. The limitation of it that we've scene is that Speed Steal doesn't work on things that are faster than the stealer, and per the current Mod ruling Thanos isn't faster.

2. And to me, it's not a step up at all. Most of that is just a healing factor, and the rest is just transmutation. Both of those things are already part of the pre-established powerset posessed by Thanos' species. There's no hard evidence of any kind of "undo reality warping" power. When Wolverine heals from a gun shot, we don't say he's bullet proof.

A Speed steal isn't something that that can be fixed by transmutation or a healing factor, so I see no reason that Thanos would be able to undo it.

That simply isn't how we work on this board, and never has been. If you go by that, Flash can speed steal the Spectre, Odin, Galactus, 5th D imps, Parralax, a Guardian, etc. None of them have ever resisted speed steal. But Flash simply can't do that, and, notably, doesn't even try to do it to big bads. He had to work really hard to speed steal a planet, and a planet is literally nothing compared to speed-stealing Thanos.

Now, you can make the argument that speed steal is esoteric and somehow bypasses power of the attacked individual, but again, prove this: show one example of Flash speed stealing a being on Thanos' level.

Who, by the way, also has feats for flat-out continuing to act through reality warping that does things like visibly remove his brain. Wolverine healing from a gunshot is nothing compared to Thanos CONTINUING TO FUNCTION NORMALLY through reality warping and having it simply not work on him after an initial effect. Speed steal is an esoteric, but reality warping is a BIGGER esoteric and Thanos is barely inconvenienced by it - he doesn't scream in pain, he doesn't blank out when he doesn't have a brain - he just pops back to normal, all the while keeping up his totally calm interior monologue.

Anyway, I'm back to being out. Enjoy the universe where Wally West scares the Presence and the One Above All (neither of whom have resisted speed steals), it's a bridge too far for me.

[The Arbiter]

That simply isn't how we work on this board, and never has been. If you go by that, Flash can speed steal the Spectre, Odin, Galactus, 5th D imps, Parralax, a Guardian, etc. None of them have ever resisted speed steal. But Flash simply can't do that, and, notably, doesn't even try to do it to big bads. He had to work really hard to speed steal a planet, and a planet is literally nothing compared to speed-stealing Thanos.

Now, you can make the argument that speed steal is esoteric and somehow bypasses power of the attacked individual, but again, prove this: show one example of Flash speed stealing a being on Thanos' level.

Who, by the way, also has feats for flat-out continuing to act through reality warping that does things like visibly remove his brain. Wolverine healing from a gunshot is nothing compared to Thanos CONTINUING TO FUNCTION NORMALLY through reality warping and having it simply not work on him after an initial effect. Speed steal is an esoteric, but reality warping is a BIGGER esoteric and Thanos is barely inconvenienced by it - he doesn't scream in pain, he doesn't blank out when he doesn't have a brain - he just pops back to normal, all the while keeping up his totally calm interior monologue.

Anyway, I'm back to being out. Enjoy the universe where Wally West scares the Presence and the One Above All (neither of whom have resisted speed steals), it's a bridge too far for me.

Thanos is laughably below TOAA and Galactus and so forth. In relative power, he is like an ant on a mountain compared to some of your examples.

I personally still feel Thanos should be able to overcome the speed steal but not because of the logic of saying him being susceptible somehow means gods with a trillion times more power would also become susceptible as a result.

[Jcogginsa]

"Power" is a completely nebulous term. Saying that a character is "More powerful" does not convey any special defensive properties on the upon them.

If you want to resist something, you need feats of having such resistences.

Let's take Goku in the original Dragonball manga as an example. by the end of the original Manga he is several times stronger than a planet buster, but I've never see anyone argue that he would be immune to a speed steal because of that.

[Dark Soul # 7]

"Power" is a completely nebulous term. Saying that a character is "More powerful" does not convey any special defensive properties on the upon them.

If you want to resist something, you need feats of having such resistences.

Let's take Goku in the original Dragonball manga as an example. by the end of the original Manga he is several times stronger than a planet buster, but I've never see anyone argue that he would be immune to a speed steal because of that.

I've seen people argue that Goku, and other Dragon Ball characters, have resistances to esoteric effects specifically because they can overcome those effects through sheer power.

See Goku/Jiren vs Hit's time stop and Vegito the candy ball vs. Super Buu to name a few.