The Flash (comics) vs Thanos (comics)

[Cronus]

I figured I'd mostly said my piece in this thread and had nothing more to say? There a particular reason you're choosing to line-by-line answer both my posts back to back?

I felt they were summaries of your complete thoughts on the matter, but disagreed with just about everything you said.

[Shellhead]

It's been a while since I last read Thanos Quest, so I read it tonight to get the full context of the page shown upthread. That page is actually pretty early in part one of Thanos Quest, so I could have stopped early, but it's a great two-part story so I finished it anyway. So, the context. Thanos doesn't have any of the Infinity Gems yet. What he does have is a nebulous blessing from Death, and the chair. Death brought him back to life, gave him more power, and apparently made him unkillable, though Thanos is smart enough to avoid testing the limits of that blessing by continuing to his powers in clever and efficient ways. Though not shown in this story, the then-recent Starlin run in Silver Surder shows that this is a teleportation chair. Yes, Thanos can also levitate fly around in it, but he generally prefers to just teleport with it.

So when Thanos is travelling those strange realms on his way to confront the In-Betweener, he notes that his previous (pre-Marvel Two-In-One Annual #2) incarnation could not have survived this journey. So this is not baseline Thanos, this is Thanos empowered by Death. His journey is probably not one of the chair flying for long distances through space but more of a series of teleportation jumps required due to unspecified interdimensional travel hurdles. So his exposure to these destructive effects might have been brief and alternating with safer realms where he can restore himself with his molecular control. His destination is a place where Law and Chaos live and co-exist, so all dualities are somehow neutralized, making it a very effective prison for the In-Betweener.

I have never followed Flash closely, so I don't know enough about his speed-steal power. Is he just slowing down the molecules of his target? Or is there some actual timeflow manipulation going on? If it's the former, even baseline Thanos should be able to resist and undo it, at the speed of thought. If it's timeflow manipulation, I don't think that Thanos has any baseline ability to cope with that, though his backstory indicates that he mastered the mystic arts long before he started battling Marvel heroes. But should a Speed Force user have any ability to manipulate time, based on the presentation of their power set? Or would that be an outlier effect that we should dismiss?

[Nik Hasta]

I felt they were summaries of your complete thoughts on the matter, but disagreed with just about everything you said.

Not sure that warrants a line-by-line response to things I said more than a week ago in my first post in the thread, much less when my final post summarises my arguments, but if it gives you a certain level of satisfaction to be completionist about it, fair enough.

As noted, I don't think the feats are great for either party, to my mind Wally might be able to get a ten count in the arena setting but loses in the scenario setting where the count out isn't a factor.

Also, I wasn't making reference to The Human Race. As I said in the post, it was in reference to Wally speed-draining the planet itself in The Obsidian Age.

[Jcogginsa]

I have never followed Flash closely, so I don't know enough about his speed-steal power. Is he just slowing down the molecules of his target? Or is there some actual timeflow manipulation going on? If it's the former, even baseline Thanos should be able to resist and undo it, at the speed of thought. If it's timeflow manipulation, I don't think that Thanos has any baseline ability to cope with that, though his backstory indicates that he mastered the mystic arts long before he started battling Marvel heroes. But should a Speed Force user have any ability to manipulate time, based on the presentation of their power set? Or would that be an outlier effect that we should dismiss?

There are cases of Wally Speed stealing things in mid air which then stay in mid air without falling due to gravity.

So it does seem to be more than just slowing down a person's molceules

[Cronus]

Not sure that warrants a line-by-line response to things I said more than a week ago in my first post in the thread, much less when my final post summarises my arguments, but if it gives you a certain level of satisfaction to be completionist about it, fair enough.

Ok.

As noted, I don't think the feats are great for either party,

Mmm, that’s not really the flavor I get from your comments. What I’m hearing is you saying Thanos’ traveling through several dimensions, where he is clearly affected physically by the forces unleashed on him while traveling through the magical realm, and ultimately to the Nexus of Reality, is inconclusive. Yet, during this entire trip, despite the obvious physical effects of the magicks operating on him, through different realities, which he noted would otherwise have killed him were it not that he was (is) favored by Lady Death….yet through all of this, he is * mentally * narrating the action as it occurs. While it is happening to the guy. And quite clearly too. In the same breath, I haven’t heard the same level of criticism against any of Wally or Barry’s feats, nope not even close. Yet, you say “neither has great feats”. That by itself just doesn’t line up with your commentary. And so, if neither party has great feats, you decide to roll with the following…

to my mind Wally might be able to get a ten count in the arena setting but loses in the scenario setting where the count out isn't a factor.

How exactly does he get a 10 count? Speed steal? Why would you say this if neither has good feats? I mean, just so I’m clear, why would speed steal stop Thanos, even if that was the speed force user(s)’ in question intent, where four different realities bearing down on Thanos not only get bounced as soon as they are applied, but the guy’s cognition is a clear as a bell? Why would speed steal slow down (or speed up for that matter) Thanos’ thinking without, at the very least, bouncing like everything else the magical realm threw at him? Just doesn’t line up. All I’m sayin’.

Also, I wasn't making reference to The Human Race. As I said in the post, it was in reference to Wally speed-draining the planet itself in The Obsidian Age.

I understand that Nik.
My point in bringing up the Human Race speed steal/kinetic energy draw, was that an entire planet of humanity (according to the story) including 5 speedsters (including Superman Blue, salt to taste…) was not frozen in place by Wally while he was actively siphoning their kinetic energy. The stakes were just as high for Wally in THR as they were in TOA, so why would you think the feat from JLA 75 is nothing more than an outlier?
I’m saying there are some strange inconsistencies in what you’re saying and the conclusion you are drawing from the feat in Thanos Quest, while at the same time, allowing for the possibility that Wally could still maybe pull off a 10 count. Not making much sense.
You haven’t done much to answer my line by line by the way, other than to distill your thoughts into this…murky…response. I’m cool with it, but, uhmmm, the real asterisk isn’t Thanos’ feat.

[Cronus]

It's been a while since I last read Thanos Quest, so I read it tonight to get the full context of the page shown upthread. That page is actually pretty early in part one of Thanos Quest, so I could have stopped early, but it's a great two-part story so I finished it anyway. So, the context. Thanos doesn't have any of the Infinity Gems yet. What he does have is a nebulous blessing from Death, and the chair. Death brought him back to life, gave him more power, and apparently made him unkillable, though Thanos is smart enough to avoid testing the limits of that blessing by continuing to his powers in clever and efficient ways. Though not shown in this story, the then-recent Starlin run in Silver Surder shows that this is a teleportation chair. Yes, Thanos can also levitate fly around in it, but he generally prefers to just teleport with it.

So when Thanos is travelling those strange realms on his way to confront the In-Betweener, he notes that his previous (pre-Marvel Two-In-One Annual #2) incarnation could not have survived this journey. So this is not baseline Thanos, this is Thanos empowered by Death. His journey is probably not one of the chair flying for long distances through space but more of a series of teleportation jumps required due to unspecified interdimensional travel hurdles.

The Nexus of Reality has always been associated with weird dimensions (see Hulk at crossroads after being banished there by Dr. Strange). Also, entering different portals associated with the Nexus from the normal 616 dimension, has always led to different places as well. There is no reason to assume teleportation is involved here, particularly since Thanos often does so on his chair we see in the feat (in addition to doing it under his own power on occasion). There is literally no evidence of teleportation in the feat. And even it was, how was the alleged teleportation stopping Thanos from feeling the effects of the magical realms he was travelling through?

So his exposure to these destructive effects might have been brief and alternating with safer realms where he can restore himself with his molecular control.

Pure speculation. That isn't what the feat shows. The narration indicates because he is a "paramour of Death" he can now safely brave interdimensional travel through these realms. And safe has nothing to do with where he went as, as mentioned, he would have likely died otherwise outside of his newfound relationship with Death. He crystalizes, melts, turns to dust, melts. How is any of that safe?

His destination is a place where Law and Chaos live and co-exist, so all dualities are somehow neutralized, making it a very effective prison for the In-Betweener.

...but as the scan and narration indicate, a fatal one for Thanos had it not been for being an avatar of Death.

I have never followed Flash closely, so I don't know enough about his speed-steal power. Is he just slowing down the molecules of his target? Or is there some actual timeflow manipulation going on?

Barry's thing in the silver age was lending speed. Wally distinguished himself from Barry with speed steal, that is, drawing away the kinetic energy of animate or inanimate objects. His limitations with it are, objects of great density, magical barriers/bonds and absolute zero.

If it's the former, even baseline Thanos should be able to resist and undo it, at the speed of thought. If it's timeflow manipulation, I don't think that Thanos has any baseline ability to cope with that, though his backstory indicates that he mastered the mystic arts long before he started battling Marvel heroes. But should a Speed Force user have any ability to manipulate time, based on the presentation of their power set? Or would that be an outlier effect that we should dismiss?

Hunter Zolomon was the first speedster whose "speed" was based on him controlling his own personal time line. Prior to this, it was purely a speed thing, going FTL, etc...

[Nik Hasta]

Mmm, that’s not really the flavor I get from your comments.

You can interpret flavour all you want but it is was I was literally saying.

In the same breath, I haven’t heard the same level of criticism against any of Wally or Barry’s feats, nope not even close. Yet, you say “neither has great feats”.

I literally said "Barry doesn't seem to have much of any speed steal feats so this whole discussion might be moot if he is the Flash in play," and "Wally has some high level speed drain feats but hasn't used those abilities on people with all-purpose esoteric resistances on the scale of Thanos,"

I'm not sure how much more clearly critical of the feats I can be?

How exactly does he get a 10 count? Speed steal? Why would you say this if neither has good feats? I mean, just so I’m clear, why would speed steal stop Thanos, even if that was the speed force user(s)’ in question intent, where four different realities bearing down on Thanos not only get bounced as soon as they are applied, but the guy’s cognition is a clear as a bell? Why would speed steal slow down (or speed up for that matter) Thanos’ thinking without, at the very least, bouncing like everything else the magical realm threw at him? Just doesn’t line up. All I’m sayin’.

Okay, let me try this again since you seem to be having trouble with understanding my position.

The Thanos Quest feat shows Thanos being affected physically by the Nexus. It shows that these effects on him are temporary but it shows that he doesn't have a blanket absolute resistance. Stuff tries to change him and it changes him. I think we agree on this point.

Speed Steal or Speed Lend, mechanically speaking, slow down or speed up the target including their cognition. That is part and parcel of the effect. I assume you also agree with this point.

My position is that, because the feat in Thanos Quest shows that Thanos is affected by outside influences (albeit temporarily) and the effect of Speed Steal is to overall slow the guy down; I think it is possible that Flash, specifically Wally, could slow him long enough to get a ten count in the arena. Thanos' resistances will bounce it but it will take longer to kick in than normal because he is overall slowed down.

As noted, I don't feel either side has overwhelmingly compelling feats that would give us a way to definitively answer this so I can fully see the perspective of someone thinking that Thanos could just ignore it. For me though, he manifestly isn't just ignoring attempts to change or influence him so the Speed Steal will have some effect on him.

My point in bringing up the Human Race speed steal/kinetic energy draw, was that an entire planet of humanity (according to the story) including 5 speedsters (including Superman Blue, salt to taste…) was not frozen in place by Wally while he was actively siphoning their kinetic energy. The stakes were just as high for Wally in THR as they were in TOA, so why would you think the feat from JLA 75 is nothing more than an outlier?

I haven't read Human Race, I only know the rough gist of it and didn't make reference to it so I don't get how you can accuse me of calling it an outlier when I didn't mention it. Tell you what, let me go read it so we can talk about it.

<~25 minutes of reading later>

Well, there's a bunch of things in Human Race that are a bit odd.

For one thing, this clearly isn't a standard Speed Steal. Normally, Wally needs to be in proximity to whatever he's targeting to influence their speed, while in this story he's apparently pulling speed from the entire human race from like untold million miles away in deep space. He also had to be told that such a thing was even possible by Krakkl indicating that it's not in his usual bag of tricks and I don't think he's ever replicated this trick since.

Second, if the timeline of events is to be believed, the time Wally actually draws upon the speed from the populace of earth and uses it to its full potential is an infinitesimal fraction of a second because he's only meant to be mainlining it while he outruns apparently instant teleportation, so we shouldn't be able to tell whether the populace is frozen because the majority of the stuff that happens is meant to happen in a fraction of an instant and so humanity would appear frozen from the Flash's perspective.

On top of that, the whole timeline of events is a bit screwy because we have stuff like Linda visibly reacting to not being able to hear Wally while he's apparently outrunning an instantaneous signal that is carrying his voice to her (which should be impossible for her because it's instant), Superman and the other speedsters starting to run after Flash has already begun the race, complete with a 3 second countdown (which should be impossible for them even with their speed because, again, instant teleportation) and a montage of regular people running while Flash is running (which should be impossible because of the timeframe he's meant to be moving in).

Personally, I don't think this feat is all that relevant to the discussion at hand to be honest. It's a wild variant of the Speed Steal/Lend that works at infinitely greater range and doesn't seem to be that internally consistent in the story itself. My reference to The Obsidian Age was purely in terms of the scale that Wally can work at, rather than function of the speed steal itself.

You haven’t done much to answer my line by line by the way, other than to distill your thoughts into this…murky…response. I’m cool with it, but, uhmmm, the real asterisk isn’t Thanos’ feat.

Well, I hope you find this to be clearer?

[Cronus]

You can interpret flavour all you want but it is was I was literally saying.

Ok.

I literally said "Barry doesn't seem to have much of any speed steal feats so this whole discussion might be moot if he is the Flash in play," and "Wally has some high level speed drain feats but hasn't used those abilities on people with all-purpose esoteric resistances on the scale of Thanos,"

I'm not sure how much more clearly critical of the feats I can be?

Ok, so right there. If you admit Wally has not attempted speed steal on someone of Thanos' caliber, why would a 10 count even be on the table?

Okay, let me try this again since you seem to be having trouble with understanding my position.

The Thanos Quest feat shows Thanos being affected physically by the Nexus. It shows that these effects on him are temporary but it shows that he doesn't have a blanket absolute resistance. Stuff tries to change him and it changes him. I think we agree on this point.

Speed Steal or Speed Lend, mechanically speaking, slow down or speed up the target including their cognition. That is part and parcel of the effect. I assume you also agree with this point.

No we don't and I explained that earlier. Speeding up someone's cognition is something I've seen Wally do once. And there was deliberate intent on his part to do so.
The default of speed steal is not, "oh, not only did I snag your kinetic energy, but I slowed your cognition down to nothing."
Doesn't work that way unless we see feats/scans/dialogue/narration to that effect. You are very much mistaken on this point. The target's cognition speeding up or slowing down is not part of the show, unless the speed force user makes a deliberate attempt to do so.
I can break out scans of Wally speed stealing individuals and slowing down their kinetic, physical motion, but their cognition is just fine.

My position is that, because the feat in Thanos Quest shows that Thanos is affected by outside influences (albeit temporarily) and the effect of Speed Steal is to overall slow the guy down; I think it is possible that Flash, specifically Wally, could slow him long enough to get a ten count in the arena. Thanos' resistances will bounce it but it will take longer to kick in than normal because he is overall slowed down.

And I'm saying the evidence from the scan in TQ points in the opposite direction of what you are describing.

During his whole journey through the Nexus, show me once...anywhere...that Thanos' cognition was impaired/stopped/slowed down, by the magical forces at work on him.

And I'll repeat myself....again...

Even if Wally could effect a successful slow down of Thanos' cognition, why would it last for 10 seconds, when the effects we see on Thanos are clearly being bounced almost immediately?

No. Your position literally makes no sense whatsoever.

As noted, I don't feel either side has overwhelmingly compelling feats that would give us a way to definitively answer this so I can fully see the perspective of someone thinking that Thanos could just ignore it. For me though, he manifestly isn't just ignoring attempts to change or influence him so the Speed Steal will have some effect on him.

In fact, that is exactly what the scan demonstrates, the opposite of what you are saying.

Not only does he bounce the effects almost right after they take effect, he never once loses coherent thought. This is particularly puzzling for someone putting forth an argument like yours because, the physical effects we see happening on Thanos in ALL instances in that scan, should be having an effect on his thinking ability and it clearly does not.

I haven't read Human Race, I only know the rough gist of it and didn't make reference to it so I don't get how you can accuse me of calling it an outlier when I didn't mention it. Tell you what, let me go read it so we can talk about it.

Dude, the outlier feat is the one from Obsidian Age, JLA 75. That is the feat I'm calling an outlier. I'm saying the feat in The Human Race is somewhat analogous to the one from JLA 75 because planetary level kinetic energies are involved. JLA 75, the earth itself is the source of kinetic energy. It THR, the kinetic energy is (ostensibly), the entire human race on earth (hence the title) running to lend Wally speed, in essence. If Wally speed stealing the kinetic energy in THR of everyone in the planet did not result in everyone freezing in mid-air, and everyone was running throughout that book, then why would Wally be able to successfully pull off speed stealing the entire kinetic energy of the earth revolving around our sun as you said he did? That is the outlier.

<~25 minutes of reading later>

Well, there's a bunch of things in Human Race that are a bit odd.

For one thing, this clearly isn't a standard Speed Steal. Normally, Wally needs to be in proximity to whatever he's targeting to influence their speed, while in this story he's apparently pulling speed from the entire human race from like untold million miles away in deep space. He also had to be told that such a thing was even possible by Krakkl indicating that it's not in his usual bag of tricks and I don't think he's ever replicated this trick since.

As I recall, the technology of the cosmic gamblers, the head set Wally was wearing? Is what allowed the transfer of kinetic energy from earth’s inhabitants to him...

Second, if the timeline of events is to be believed, the time Wally actually draws upon the speed from the populace of earth and uses it to its full potential is an infinitesimal fraction of a second because he's only meant to be mainlining it while he outruns apparently instant teleportation,

To be clear, the technology of the cosmic gamblers allowed them to teleport anywhere in time, instantaneously. The only way Wally could have beaten instantaneous teleportation through time itself, is by travelling back in time, the tiniest fraction of a second ahead of the cosmic gamblers. Which is why the the CG lost the race. No, it doesn’t make sense. But…comics.

so we shouldn't be able to tell whether the populace is frozen because the majority of the stuff that happens is meant to happen in a fraction of an instant and so humanity would appear frozen from the Flash's perspective.

Appeared frozen to Wally, yes. But moving all the same, otherwise what kinetic energy would Wally have stolen? That would have defeated the entire purpose of the last book in that story.

On top of that, the whole timeline of events is a bit screwy because we have stuff like Linda visibly reacting to not being able to hear Wally while he's apparently outrunning an instantaneous signal that is carrying his voice to her (which should be impossible for her because it's instant), Superman and the other speedsters starting to run after Flash has already begun the race, complete with a 3 second countdown (which should be impossible for them even with their speed because, again, instant teleportation) and a montage of regular people running while Flash is running (which should be impossible because of the timeframe he's meant to be moving in).

Of course the whole thing is wonky when considered logically, but...comics. The point the story was making still stands, Wally was stealing the kinetic energy of everyone on earth (through the technology of the Gamblers). That's the relevant part here.

Personally, I don't think this feat is all that relevant to the discussion at hand to be honest. It's a wild variant of the Speed Steal/Lend that works at infinitely greater range and doesn't seem to be that internally consistent in the story itself. My reference to The Obsidian Age was purely in terms of the scale that Wally can work at, rather than function of the speed steal itself.

And I'm saying that is why the feat from Obsidian age should be dismissed. The effect of Wally's speed steal in THR should have frozen the entire planet, not in time, but literally, froze everyone in place. But it didn't. Hence, the feat from JLA 75 should be treated as an outlier.

Well, I hope you find this to be clearer?

I'd say I've seen as much as I care to? You say no one has compelling evidence to prove one way or another, yet clearly, you seem to believe Wally might pull off a 10 count due to speed steal. And I'm saying, I could easily see speed steal failing, just the way all the other reality warping effects of travelling through the Nexus bounced as well.

[Nik Hasta]

Ok, so right there. If you admit Wally has not attempted speed steal on someone of Thanos' caliber, why would a 10 count even be on the table?

Because, as I've said multiple times, Thanos doesn't have any feats of /complete/ resistance. The Nexus tries to turn him into crystal and he is turned into crystal. His resistances/molecular control/immortality from Death/whatever then enable him to undo that but he is affected by it.

The Thanos Quest feat, which is the only feat of his that demonstrates these resistances to esoteric effects that I've been able to find, shows him /specifically/ not stopping the effect from happening.

Ergo, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that Wally can drain him and it takes him longer to shake because every aspect of him is slowed down.

No we don't and I explained that earlier. Speeding up someone's cognition is something I've seen Wally do once. And there was deliberate intent on his part to do so.

<SNIP>

The target's cognition speeding up or slowing down is not part of the show, unless the speed force user makes a deliberate attempt to do so.

I mean that's not true.

- Flash lending speed to Wonder Woman to speed her up and that included her cognition.

- Speedlends Captain Cold and Mirror Master by speed draining Jay Garrick and this includes making their cognition faster and takes Jay out of the conflict because his ability to move and react at high speed is gone.

- Speedsteals from Impulse and Jay to make himself faster when fighting Zoom II, this includes enhancing his cognition/perceptions as noted in his internal monologue.

- Speed lends Linda so she can experience the world from his perspective which obviously also includes her cognition.

- Don't know how strictly you want to quantify cognition but for a more esoteric angle here's him speedlending a vaccine so it destroys a virus faster

So, nah, speedlending definitely has several feats affecting cognition speed.

I can break out scans of Wally speed stealing individuals and slowing down their kinetic, physical motion, but their cognition is just fine.

Genuinely would love to see them. I've found two of him speeding people up and choosing not to improve their cognition proporitionally so they can't control their motion and crash into things as a strategy and there's the Inertia feat where he slows him to stasis but specifically doesn't effect his mind as a punishment, but I'd be keen to see more if you have them on hand.

Even if Wally could effect a successful slow down of Thanos' cognition, why would it last for 10 seconds, when the effects we see on Thanos are clearly being bounced almost immediately?

Because his entire being, including his ability to undo the effects happening to him, would be slowed down. This is the might part of my argument. Wally can slow Inertia to the point where a blink of eye will take a century, so that's a big force multiplier on how fast things can happen at play. If he gets even like 1/1000th of that Intertia level of effect to stick on Thanos even temporarily, then Thanos is going to take a little bit to move past it.

Dude, the outlier feat is the one from Obsidian Age, JLA 75. That is the feat I'm calling an outlier. I'm saying the feat in The Human Race is somewhat analogous to the one from JLA 75 because planetary level kinetic energies are involved. JLA 75, the earth itself is the source of kinetic energy. It THR, the kinetic energy is (ostensibly), the entire human race on earth (hence the title) running to lend Wally speed, in essence. If Wally speed stealing the kinetic energy in THR of everyone in the planet did not result in everyone freezing in mid-air, and everyone was running throughout that book, then why would Wally be able to successfully pull off speed stealing the entire kinetic energy of the earth revolving around our sun as you said he did? That is the outlier.

I'll be real, I don't think I'm following what you're saying here because it seems like you're saying that the feat didn't happen?

The feat concerned from The Obsidian Age, linked here for completionism, shows Wally draining kinetic energy out of the planet to offset the stress of Superman, Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter pulling it back into the correct orbit after Gamemnae attempted to throw the Earth into deep space. Like, that's what happened.

I only included this feat in my initial arguments to show what level of scale that Wally can work at it [sic: affecting an entire planet]. I really don't understand what you're trying to say by bringing up the very different feat from The Human Race. They are two different feats, demonstrating different things.

As I recall, the technology of the cosmic gamblers, the head set Wally was wearing? Is what allowed the transfer of kinetic energy from earth’s inhabitants to him...

I'm afraid it does not, or if it does it is never stated as such.

In the story, Wally is running out energy and cannot keep going because he's been running all across space and time for days non-stop and Krakkl tells him that he found a way to siphon energy from his homeworld and, as long as his people keep running, he won't tire. Because of this ability, Krakkl was able to outlast six other speedsters and their worlds were forfeit instead of his own. At no point is the Gamblers' Technology mentioned as part of how Wally or Krakkl are able to summon energy across the vastness of space and time.

To be clear, the technology of the cosmic gamblers allowed them to teleport anywhere in time, instantaneously. The only way Wally could have beaten instantaneous teleportation through time itself, is by travelling back in time, the tiniest fraction of a second ahead of the cosmic gamblers. Which is why the the CG lost the race. No, it doesn’t make sense. But…comics.

I agree it doesn't make sense. There's a moment wherein Wally watches the "instantaneous signal" of his own voice heading toward earth flying through space above him as he pauses for a moment after Krakkl dies, if it's truly instant he should have lost at that point. So, whatever talk of it being "instant" clearly comes with some caveats but Wally specifically watches it moving and then runs after it, into the fourth dimension, catches up and overtakes it. It's a super weird feat.

Appeared frozen to Wally, yes. But moving all the same, otherwise what kinetic energy would Wally have stolen? That would have defeated the entire purpose of the last book in that story.

I agree, the feat literally doesn't make logical sense which is why I don't think we can really call it a useful indicator of what normal speedstealing does. Too many caveats on it for my money.

I'd say I've seen as much as I care to? You say no one has compelling evidence to prove one way or another, yet clearly, you seem to believe Wally might pull off a 10 count due to speed steal. And I'm saying, I could easily see speed steal failing, just the way all the other reality warping effects of travelling through the Nexus bounced as well.

Well, that's been my position since our discussion began so I'm glad we're understanding each other.

[Nik Hasta]

Also, I found a weird feat of Flash doing... something... and allowing himself and Firestorm to "sidestep the timestream," and referred to it in text as "doing the lightspeed shuffle," which suggests some kind of speedlending. This allowed them to view an extradimensional object that was making a swarm of micro-tesseract that were messing up space as a singular thing rather than a multi-angled nightmare.

So definitely affecting cognition in some way but it's a bit of weird one, not sure if it counts as speedlending or not.

Phew, it's been a little while since I've done a bunch of actual research for a thread. This has been fun!

[Shellhead]

The Thanos of Thanos Quest was recently brought back from death by Death herself and imbued with greater power. Just now, I remembered how Thanos died the first time: he was turned to stone by Adam Warlock. How is that possible if baseline Thanos can control his molecules and reverse such a transformation instantaneously? Maybe he could only do that in Thanos Quest because Death amped his powers. Or maybe he couldn't reverse getting turned to stone because it was not yet established that there was a connection between Earth's Eternals and Titan's Eternals, so Thanos was not recognized as someone who could alter his own molecular composition, making that ability something of a retcon.

[Postmania]

Gotta be honest, I thought this thread would be about a page.

[Cronus]

Because, as I've said multiple times, Thanos doesn't have any feats of /complete/ resistance. The Nexus tries to turn him into crystal and he is turned into crystal. His resistances/molecular control/immortality from Death/whatever then enable him to undo that but he is affected by it.

He doesn’t need them and I never claimed he was completely immune physically. He is bouncing back almost right away. From panel to panel, we see him normal, then changing…and as soon as he changes the immediate next panel shows him reverting to normal. Notwithstanding that, he never loses clear, coherent cognition. You keep glossing over this very important detail.

The Thanos Quest feat, which is the only feat of his that demonstrates these resistances to esoteric effects that I've been able to find, shows him /specifically/ not stopping the effect from happening.

Again. Not the point. I’ll repeat, notwithstanding the fact that he is being restored after each effect, almost immediately in fact, he can think clearly through the whole process. How would speed steal work where four different magical effects have failed?
You keep missing this point…
He is maintaining clear coherence throughout the whole ordeal, despite the obvious physical effects.

Ergo, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that Wally can drain him and it takes him longer to shake because every aspect of him is slowed down.

But every aspect of Thanos is NOT slowed down according to the scan in question.
He can think clearly, despite being changed physically.

I mean that's not true.

- Flash lending speed to Wonder Woman to speed her up and that included her cognition.

- Speedlends Captain Cold and Mirror Master by speed draining Jay Garrick and this includes making their cognition faster and takes Jay out of the conflict because his ability to move and react at high speed is gone.

- Speedsteals from Impulse and Jay to make himself faster when fighting Zoom II, this includes enhancing his cognition/perceptions as noted in his internal monologue.

- Speed lends Linda so she can experience the world from his perspective which obviously also includes her cognition.

- Don't know how strictly you want to quantify cognition but for a more esoteric angle here's him speedlending a vaccine so it destroys a virus faster

So, nah, speedlending definitely has several feats affecting cognition speed.

I know all this, Nik.
I mean, speeding up cognition apart from speeding up their kinetic motion.

Genuinely would love to see them. I've found two of him speeding people up and choosing not to improve their cognition proporitionally so they can't control their motion and crash into things as a strategy and there's the Inertia feat where he slows him to stasis but specifically doesn't effect his mind as a punishment, but I'd be keen to see more if you have them on hand.

I seemed to recall Wally West speed up the neural activity in Dr. Alchemy's brain until he passed out. I recalled wrong.

That was actually Walter West, an alternate time line version of Wally West. Flash 152.

Also, that is one of the points of made throughout this discussion, I don’t think Wally would bother with a kinetic speed steal of his physical motion, but either try to speed up his synapses and overload them (like above) or attempt to slow them down, which I have never seen him do. And given that Barry and Wally’s specialties differ from one another, then we, yes, we should see scans of Wally speed stealing someone and their cognition slowing down to nothing.
And one more time Nik…even if he is able to successfully pull-off both physical and neural slow down (or speed up), what makes you believe it will stick, based on the scan from TQ?

Also, why didn't speed steal by Jay Garrick on Superman stop his cognition?

DC 1ST 1.7 - Jay steals Clarks speed, Kadabra mucks with speed force.jpg

Because his entire being, including his ability to undo the effects happening to him, would be slowed down. This is the might part of my argument.

…how on earth you are drawing this conclusion, based on the scan from TQ, is just…

Wally can slow Inertia to the point where a blink of eye will take a century, so that's a big force multiplier on how fast things can happen at play. If he gets even like 1/1000th of that Intertia level of effect to stick on Thanos even temporarily, then Thanos is going to take a little bit to move past it.

Lending and borrowing speed among speedsters is common place. So, what?
Why is that relevant to Thanos bouncing four (4) different effects from the magical realm, pretty much right after they occur, and still…be able…to think…clearly. Lending and borrowing speed against a guy who not only bounces, almost immediately, the physical effects and obviously not be affected mentally.

I'll be real, I don't think I'm following what you're saying here because it seems like you're saying that the feat didn't happen?

The feat concerned from The Obsidian Age, linked here for completionism, shows Wally draining kinetic energy out of the planet to offset the stress of Superman, Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter pulling it back into the correct orbit after Gamemnae attempted to throw the Earth into deep space. Like, that's what happened.

I only included this feat in my initial arguments to show what level of scale that Wally can work at it [sic: affecting an entire planet]. I really don't understand what you're trying to say by bringing up the very different feat from The Human Race. They are two different feats, demonstrating different things.

Yeah, that’s my point?

If the result of Wally speed stealing the kinetic motion of everyone on planet earth, including 5 speedsters who are topped out, did not freeze everyone in place, ergo, everyone was still moving throughout that story, then why would the feat from JLA 75 be legit, since logically, the kinetic motion of all of planet earth should be greater than that?
I understand what happened in the book and what the narration says. I mean, Firelord lost to Spider-Man too. Is that legit too Nik?
The feat from Obsidian Age is an outlier.

I'm afraid it does not, or if it does it is never stated as such.

In the story, Wally is running out energy and cannot keep going because he's been running all across space and time for days non-stop and Krakkl tells him that he found a way to siphon energy from his homeworld and, as long as his people keep running, he won't tire. Because of this ability, Krakkl was able to outlast six other speedsters and their worlds were forfeit instead of his own. At no point is the Gamblers' Technology mentioned as part of how Wally or Krakkl are able to summon energy across the vastness of space and time.

Flash 138

First scan, “Krakkl told me about a cheat he figured out where the kinetic energy from your home planet can be used to power a contestant in the race indefinitely”.

Flash 138.1.jpg

Krakkly could not speed steal. In fact, during the race, Wally loaned Krakkl speed. The only way Krakkl beat his other opponents was using the kinetic energy of his home planet to push him past his other opponents. That kinetic energy was transmitted through the headsets provided by the cosmic gamblers. Not only that, how could Wally have utilized the kinetic energy of earth by speed stealing through space-time? He couldn’t. He was too far away. Hence, “transmissions” through the head set.

Notice the scan below from the same book...

Flash 138.2.jpg

I agree it doesn't make sense. There's a moment wherein Wally watches the "instantaneous signal" of his own voice heading toward earth flying through space above him as he pauses for a moment after Krakkl dies, if it's truly instant he should have lost at that point. So, whatever talk of it being "instant" clearly comes with some caveats but Wally specifically watches it moving and then runs after it, into the fourth dimension, catches up and overtakes it. It's a super weird feat.

It was a time travel feat for Wally. He travelled back in time an instant before the cosmic gamblers got there instantaneously. That would’ve been the only way to beat instantaneous teleportation through the time stream.

I agree, the feat literally doesn't make logical sense which is why I don't think we can really call it a useful indicator of what normal speedstealing does. Too many caveats on it for my money.

Well, yeah. As mentioned the only way it would’ve made since is if it was a time travel feat.

Well, that's been my position since our discussion began so I'm glad we're understanding each other.

The only thing I’m understanding at this point is your are ignoring the obvious implications of the scan from TQ. I’ll restate it; even IF speed steal works on Thanos here where FOUR different magical effects failed, not only does Thanos almost immediately bounce the effects as soon as they take effect, he never loses clear, coherent thought.
The evidence points strongly in the opposite direction of what you are saying. Speed steal, either of kinetic energy, or speeding up or slowing down Thanos’ thought process (and I’d like to see scans for the latter) isn’t going to stick according to the scan from TQ.

[Cronus]

Also, regarding my statement:

I know all this, Nik.
I mean, speeding up cognition apart from speeding up their kinetic motion.

To be very clear and specific, where are the scans of Wally slowing down kinetic motion with the result ALSO being commensurate slow down of cognition?

And once more, even IF, there are any such scans, how will the stick to a guy who, not only physically bounces back through four different reality warping effects, but maintains clear cognition throughout all four ordeals?

[Nik Hasta]

In the interests of brevity, got a busy day at work ahead of me

To be very clear and specific, where are the scans of Wally slowing down kinetic motion with the result ALSO being commensurate slow down of cognition?

Two of the scans I already posted show Wally speedstealing people and their cognition being slowed down.

And once more, even IF, there are any such scans, how will the stick to a guy who, not only physically bounces back through four different reality warping effects, but maintains clear cognition throughout all four ordeals?

My contention is that he will be thinking clearly, just a hell of a lot slower. If the effect happens to him, with the Thanos Quest feat suggests that it will, then he will be slowed. This has been the basic difference of opinion that we've been discussing.