The Flash (comics) vs Thanos (comics)

[Sharpandpointies]

For myself, I think the point here is that it does have minimal effect - the words he uses. It's like him getting a cold, starting to get the sniffles, and then bouncing it and being fine. He's getting hollowed out, melted, changed to a completely different substance, none of which has any real kind of impact on him. He views this as 'minimal effect', and even while it's happening it's pretty clear he's meant to still be thinking, still piloting his chair (which is controlled by his mind, as I understand). It happens, but it doesn't stop him from doing whatever he's doing while it's happening, and it doesn't stick.

I get the point Nik is making - if this stuff is actually doing something, then speed steal will also do something - but I also feel the point the comic makes would then be 'Speed steal might work on him...but it won't stick', and it really won't stop him from just working through it, or his mind from continuing to do whatever (dude is changed to crystal or his brain is hollowed out and removed and he's continuing to fly his chair*).

* Only comics would have me say something so ridiculous-sounding, and yet so true.

[Nik Hasta]

This also happens to be one of the odd times Red Dwarf and Marvel sync up on a concept;

[StupidMoniker]

For myself, I think the point here is that it does have minimal effect - the words he uses. It's like him getting a cold, starting to get the sniffles, and then bouncing it and being fine. He's getting hollowed out, melted, changed to a completely different substance, none of which has any real kind of impact on him. He views this as 'minimal effect', and even while it's happening it's pretty clear he's meant to still be thinking, still piloting his chair (which is controlled by his mind, as I understand). It happens, but it doesn't stop him from doing whatever he's doing while it's happening, and it doesn't stick.

I get the point Nik is making - if this stuff is actually doing something, then speed steal will also do something - but I also feel the point the comic makes would then be 'Speed steal might work on him...but it won't stick', and it really won't stop him from just working through it, or his mind from continuing to do whatever (dude is changed to crystal or his brain is hollowed out and removed and he's continuing to fly his chair*).

* Only comics would have me say something so ridiculous-sounding, and yet so true.

Arthur Dent is turned into yarn in the movie version of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and he still manages to walk around a vomit (and his vomit is also yarn). I don't see that as a feat for movie Arthur Dent being so cosmically powerful that he can shake off reality warping, so much as writers not caring that it makes no sense for someone whose brain has been turned into yarn to still be able to operate as a human being. Interestingly enough, it is also based on transiting dimensions.

[Sharpandpointies]

Arthur Dent is turned into yarn in the movie version of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and he still manages to walk around a vomit (and his vomit is also yarn). I don't see that as a feat for movie Arthur Dent being so cosmically powerful that he can shake off reality warping, so much as writers not caring that it makes no sense for someone whose brain has been turned into yarn to still be able to operate as a human being. Interestingly enough, it is also based on transiting dimensions.

Interesting similarities.

It's just that in this case, we actually have scenes of Thanos having all manner of weird shit happening to him, and him specifically still operating through all of that and stating 'Yeah, this stuff would kill someone less than me, but I'm cool with it.' It's not played for gags, and it actually has an explanation from Thanos that he can survive it despite the fact that it would kill other beings.

[The Arbiter]

Back when I more frequently participated on this board, the above Thanos Quest feat was touted as evidence of esoteric resistance.

My personal belief is that it would briefly affect the guy and then get bounced as he snapped back to his unperturbed self while pontificating about how the singular uniqueness of Thanos is not beholden to physical laws that would fell a lesser being.

[Shellhead]

I agree that Thanos seems to have the ability to overcome speed stealing. But it we're going to talk about Thanos Quest, what about the scene where Runner is just smacking Thanos left and right? It seemed like Thanos would have lost that fight if he didn't already have the Time Stone. Could he survive an infinite mass punch? Or Flash running through him and making him explode?

[Sharpandpointies]

I agree that Thanos seems to have the ability to overcome speed stealing. But it we're going to talk about Thanos Quest, what about the scene where Runner is just smacking Thanos left and right? It seemed like Thanos would have lost that fight if he didn't already have the Time Stone. Could he survive an infinite mass punch? Or Flash running through him and making him explode?

One of the reasons the Runner can hurt Thanos like he did is that the Runner is not only ridiculously fast, faster than the Surfer, but also the Runner is a guy who physically overpowers - strength versus strength - and beats up the Surfer. Like, fairly easily.

If a guy who can basically beat all hell out of Surfer without significantly exerting himself (which was basically what it was, the Runner found it all very amusing) is too fast for Thanos, I can totally see that guy starting to put the hurt on Thanos as well. Like, not casually as he did to the Surfer, but it shouldn't be out of his reach, especially if he's basically whaling away on Thanos unopposed due to Too Fast™.

So I'm considerably less-sanguine about the Infinite Mass punch doing a whole lot to Thanos. I mean, that kind of tops out at 'can maybe KO a class 100 in a hit or two. Or three.' Whereas Thanos has durability more like...hm...'Thor, a legit, top-end Class 100, gets his hands on the Power Gem, goes all Warrior Madness to boot, and whales on Thanos's face with Mjolnir, over and over again. This accomplishes all of giving Thanos a nosebleed. And making him grin.' Or 'Odin KO's the Surfer with a single handzap, then needs to up the ante of power at least three times from there (finally involving full-on, sustained rivers of power from Gungnir, and then stuff beyond that) to do significant damage to Thanos, who is still on his feet.'

As for the vibrational explosion thing, I'm iffy on that for two reasons. One is Thanos' absolutely insane durability (as noted above), the other being that Thanos has control of his own molecules (I think), and part of the explanation for the 'make you go boom' is it makes your molecules vibrate too quickly and separate from each other. Or somesuch weirdness. ^_^

[Nik Hasta]

Back when I more frequently participated on this board, the above Thanos Quest feat was touted as evidence of esoteric resistance.

My personal belief is that it would briefly affect the guy and then get bounced as he snapped back to his unperturbed self while pontificating about how the singular uniqueness of Thanos is not beholden to physical laws that would fell a lesser being.

I thought it could be that, but his chair also changes.

Is Thanos reconstructing himself and his chair is too? Or is it just that they leave the dimension effecting them behind and they return to normal neither damaged permanently by the process?

[Jcogginsa]

For myself, I think the point here is that it does have minimal effect - the words he uses. It's like him getting a cold, starting to get the sniffles, and then bouncing it and being fine. He's getting hollowed out, melted, changed to a completely different substance, none of which has any real kind of impact on him. He views this as 'minimal effect', and even while it's happening it's pretty clear he's meant to still be thinking, still piloting his chair (which is controlled by his mind, as I understand). It happens, but it doesn't stop him from doing whatever he's doing while it's happening, and it doesn't stick.

I get the point Nik is making - if this stuff is actually doing something, then speed steal will also do something - but I also feel the point the comic makes would then be 'Speed steal might work on him...but it won't stick', and it really won't stop him from just working through it, or his mind from continuing to do whatever (dude is changed to crystal or his brain is hollowed out and removed and he's continuing to fly his chair*).

* Only comics would have me say something so ridiculous-sounding, and yet so true.

1. As I see it, what happens there is that Thanos is merely surviving the effects that the universes are doing to him, and then healing himself after the fact, when the realities are no longer effecting him. Which doesn't mean that he could revert the effects of an onoing effect, and Wally's got no reason to turn the speed steal off until after he gets a 10 count

2. Do you know which issue of thanos Quest this scene happens in? The chair might be on autopilot, but I'd need to check the issue to verify

[Nik Hasta]

2. Do you know which issue of thanos Quest this scene happens in? The chair might be on autopilot, but I'd need to check the issue to verify

I think it's #1

[big_adventure]

If you think bringing up PR Retcon Beyonder in a conversation about Thanos' capacity to do things is a reasonable line of argument, I frankly don't know how to respond to that.



How do you figure that? We see Thanos being physically changed altered and changed by reality warping effects as he moves through various dimensions and your contention is that this is somehow evidence that he won't be altered or effected by Speed Stealing.

Let me grab the page:



We can see him being melted and exploded and returning to normal afterwards and he notes "This would kill normal beings," but he's presumably able reassemble himself and undo the damage once he leaves that dimension. He says it "has a minimal effect," and it's still melting his face off, whatever resistances he has are not enough to stop it completely. Like, I don't see how this is excellent evidence of Thanos being able to completely prevent foreign effects impacting his body and normal processes because the feat shows the opposite of that.



But he's not immune to reality warping, that's my point. It manifestly has an effect on him.

1. I never said that Thanos and PR Beyonder were the same thing. But both of them are beings well beyond anything Flash has ever speed-stolen. Even speed-stealing a planet is bupkis to Thanos.

2. As stated by me and others, being "affected" by any of this does nothing more than perhaps mildly inconvenience him. He's still just chilling comfortably while being deconstructed, and having an inner monologue the entire time. He's not stopped from doing what he's doing. If he had to damage something there, he absolutely could have, as I read it.

3. He's made Odin, multi-galaxy-buster, throw basically everything he has into an prolonged attack to stop the guy, on a day where Odin waving his hand KO's the Surfer. He's made Galactus work, and work hard, to down him. He's explicitly rolling with the established ability to function just fine through esoteric nonsense that would annihilate or transmute or render useless lesser beings. His power level is beyond anything Flash has speed-stolen, and he's got fancy canonical abilities to specifically continue functioning basically unimpaired through straight up reality warping. For me, that's enough. Flash would, for me, need feats for speed-stealing someone on Thanos' rough level, who additionally has the ability to resist esoteric effects to boot. I don't think he has those. If you handwave Thanos because he doesn't specifically resist speed-stealing, despite being much more powerful and more resistant to esoterics than anyone Flash has done this to, I guess you handwave Odin, or Galactus, neither of whom have any feats for resisting speed-stealing.

4. I don't even want to get into the discussion about Thanos and his last-gen-board-mod-ruled-massively-FTL-reflexes. That combined with telepathy? Flash is a meat-puppet.

[Nik Hasta]

1. I never said that Thanos and PR Beyonder were the same thing. But both of them are beings well beyond anything Flash has ever speed-stolen. Even speed-stealing a planet is bupkis to Thanos.

No, you said; "If we say Thanos isn't immune, then we must also conclude that someone infinitely more powerful than Thanos isn't immune," That is drawing an equivalence.

2. As stated by me and others, being "affected" by any of this does nothing more than perhaps mildly inconvenience him. He's still just chilling comfortably while being deconstructed, and having an inner monologue the entire time. He's not stopped from doing what he's doing. If he had to damage something there, he absolutely could have, as I read it.

But he's being affected. You can't say "this feat shows immunity," when the feat shows him specifically not being immune. Further to that, all he's doing is sitting there, it is not clear that Thanos when his face is melting off is capable of the same things he is normally. He is being effected by esoterics and it may well have an impact on his capacities.

3. He's made Odin, multi-galaxy-buster, throw basically everything he has into an prolonged attack to stop the guy, on a day where Odin waving his hand KO's the Surfer. He's made Galactus work, and work hard, to down him.

Odin isn't a multi-galaxy buster to my recollection unless some wild feats showed up recently and Galactus has never had to work hard to deal with Thanos. He has said "hmm, this forcefield you've thrown up requires me to expend a fraction more effort than I would have anticipated, let me just turn up the juice a little," as Thanos has been left on his knees begging for his life.

He's explicitly rolling with the established ability to function just fine through esoteric nonsense that would annihilate or transmute or render useless lesser beings. His power level is beyond anything Flash has speed-stolen, and he's got fancy canonical abilities to specifically continue functioning basically unimpaired through straight up reality warping. For me, that's enough. Flash would, for me, need feats for speed-stealing someone on Thanos' rough level, who additionally has the ability to resist esoteric effects to boot. I don't think he has those. If you handwave Thanos because he doesn't specifically resist speed-stealing, despite being much more powerful and more resistant to esoterics than anyone Flash has done this to, I guess you handwave Odin, or Galactus, neither of whom have any feats for resisting speed-stealing.

Once again, drawing an equivalence with beings vastly more powerful than Thanos.

4. I don't even want to get into the discussion about Thanos and his last-gen-board-mod-ruled-massively-FTL-reflexes. That combined with telepathy? Flash is a meat-puppet.

I also don't wish to discuss Thanos' reactions but his telepathy game is why I'm talking about the Speed Steal. Since we've seen in the feat above that esoteric stuff can effect him, albeit impermanently, and since Flash will act first, I think he's going to get (at minimum) temporarily slowed by having the speed force drained from him.

And if said steal works enough to make Thanos take longer than 10 seconds to think hard enough to kill Flash with his mind, then he still loses in the arena.

[Sharpandpointies]

Going to step in to note that Odin wasn't necessarily throwing everything he had at Thanos. He was WORKING, but there's no evidence he was going all out, 'I blow up galaxies and fight Galactus' on Thanos.

What we have from that fight is a clear progression of power levels used.

1. Odin uses basic, casual handzaps on The Surfer and Thanos. The Surfer is insta-KO'ed, supplying us with the base level of power being used (capable of insta-KOing the Surfer, which is...pretty good - it's worth noting that Odin one-shots Drax a couple pages earlier with a similar handzap). Thanos gives no shits and is unaffected by multiple blasts, other than being staggered once in a while (and sometimes he just stands there and eats it without effort).
2. Odin begins ramping up the power, very clearly. Does more with his power, hits harder. Thanos keeps fighting.
3. Odin declares the kid gloves doth be off and pulls out Gungnir. Odin starts blasting Thanos. Thanos gets blown all over the place, now, but eventually...gets up again.
4. Odin hits Thanos with a continuous stream of power from Gungnir. Thanos wades through it, clearly getting hurt now, and manages to grab Gungnir. Odin promptly takes him for a wild ride around town, lighting him up in a massive flare of power the whole way.

This leaves Thanos visibly messed up, on his hands and knees, trembling. He then forces himself to his feet.

So the power runs...like three jumps over what insta-KO's the Surfer, Thanos manages to not only live through but withstand for a fairly big chunk of time. But at no point does Odin look concerned, at no point does Thanos even scratch Odin's paint, and other than Odin saying 'It has been Eons since I have fought such a battle' (Odin, you liar*, you've fought Celestials recently and they kicked your ass), there's no conclusive evidence to show he's giving it his all.

Giving it a LOT? Sure. Three jumps in power over one-shotting the Drax and the Surfer. That's a lot. And that, to me, is where the feat stands.

* redundant

[Captain Morgan]

1.

4. I don't even want to get into the discussion about Thanos and his last-gen-board-mod-ruled-massively-FTL-reflexes. That combined with telepathy? Flash is a meat-puppet.

Not sure why you'd bring it up if you didn't want to discuss them, but that Thanos ruling DID NOT carry over from reboot and the board has moved on to treat him as having relatively no super speed. If he beats people like Wally or PC Superman, it is on pure durability and resistance, not speed.

I don't want Thanos blitz becoming a meme again.

[Postmania]

Oh I didn't know he got nerfed in speed.