The Flash (comics) vs Thanos (comics)

[Alan2099]

Unless I'm wrong, his fancy chair requires him to actually control it. Unless it has autopilot?

He's been able to summon to him from far away, so I'd assume he can at the very least program it to just keep going in the same direction until he gets out of whatever he's in.

[Sharpandpointies]

Maybe? Maybe not? Hard to say without conclusive proof.

One thing that seems important is that the Chair is going through the same stuff as he is, and yet it's fine afterward. Chair have some kind of auto-repair function? Because if it doesn't, how's it coming back together again? Other than 'Thanos'.

So far, the most simple explanation to me without needing to get into convoluted guesses on what's happening is that 'Stuff happens to Thanos and Chair; regardless of the shape it leaves him in, he basically bounces back, either consciously or unconsciously'. I'm still of the feeling that something similar is going to happen with the speed steal. Flash steals his speed (however it's working at the moment), Thanos says 'Nope' and bounces back.

[Jcogginsa]

Maybe? Maybe not? Hard to say without conclusive proof.

One thing that seems important is that the Chair is going through the same stuff as he is, and yet it's fine afterward. Chair have some kind of auto-repair function? Because if it doesn't, how's it coming back together again? Other than 'Thanos'.

So far, the most simple explanation to me without needing to get into convoluted guesses on what's happening is that 'Stuff happens to Thanos and Chair; regardless of the shape it leaves him in, he basically bounces back, either consciously or unconsciously'. I'm still of the feeling that something similar is going to happen with the speed steal. Flash steals his speed (however it's working at the moment), Thanos says 'Nope' and bounces back.

1. Well, if Thanos chair doesn't have it's own repair function, or is being repaired by Thanos, then there is one alternative we haven't considered: That the damage snaps back when Thanos is done passing through the reality the damage snaps back on it's own rather than by his will

2. I mean, the question here is "How long does it take Thanos to say Nope?". Because the process of undoing the Speed Steal would by definition take place before the Steed steal is undone, and thus presumably take a long, long time.

[Sharpandpointies]

1. Well, if Thanos chair doesn't have it's own repair function, or is being repaired by Thanos, then there is one alternative we haven't considered: That the damage snaps back when Thanos is done passing through the reality the damage snaps back on it's own rather than by his will

I mean, this is a possibility. For my money, t's a far more complex and less sensible possibility than the more simple idea of 'Thanos endures and fixes it'.

1. If it's not Thanos fixing things, and everything goes back to normal when it exits that 'area' of the universe/dimensional travel/whatever, why would it prove fatal to anyone but Thanos? If the chair gets fixed, and the damage all disappears, why would it be fatal to any lesser being than Thanos? Chair is fixed, chair is functional, Thanos is back to normal without having to do anything, why would it be fatal to, say, Thor?

2. Why would everything come back together again? If a dimension literally hollows out and shatters a person, why would they simply snap back just because they've re-entered a more 'normal' space that doesn't make people break into a gazillion pieces? Or alter their atomic and molecular structure, apparently, to some kind of sillicates? Or melt them? They're melted. The region may have melted them, but they're melted. It's a done deal. Why would they snap back? There's nothing in a 'normal' dimension that says 'oh, and if someone enters here melted, poof, they're fine'.

It's far more likely that Thanos survives this - unlike everyone else - and puts himself and the chair back together again; there are too many inconsistencies and things that just don't make sense with it otherwise. That's my feeling, anyway.

2. I mean, the question here is "How long does it take Thanos to say Nope?". Because the process of undoing the Speed Steal would by definition take place before the Steed steal is undone, and thus presumably take a long, long time.

If the guy can continue to think without a brain, when hollowed out and shattered, I suspect he can continue to think just fine and at normal speeds when undergoing other alterations. Like turning to crystal. Melting. Getting frozen from a speed steal. Etc.

Mileage may vary, of course.

[Jcogginsa]

If the guy can continue to think without a brain, when hollowed out and shattered, I suspect he can continue to think just fine and at normal speeds when undergoing other alterations. Like turning to crystal. Melting. Getting frozen from a speed steal. Etc.

Mileage may vary, of course.

I feel like Speed Steal works too differently from Transmutation for that to work. None of those Transmutations are targetting the speed of his thought processes. Plus, near as we can tell the only thing Thanos does is reverse the physical changes to his body (& Chair) whereas a Speed Steal would effect more than just his body. If Wally speed steals something in mid air, the object doesn't even fall to the ground. So that's a step beyond a simple physical effect.

Additionally, based off what we've seen Thanos only reverses the effects after he's moved beyond the effect asserting them, he doesn't ever fight against them directly. So what's stopping Wally from just continuing to still his speed until he's been incapacitated long enough for a ten count.

[Alan2099]

If the guy can continue to think without a brain, when hollowed out and shattered, I suspect he can continue to think just fine and at normal speeds when undergoing other alterations. Like turning to crystal. Melting. Getting frozen from a speed steal. Etc.

We haven't established that he can do that. Just that he can endure being transformed and then is able to regain his functions.

[Sharpandpointies]

I feel like Speed Steal works too differently from Transmutation for that to work. None of those Transmutations are targetting the speed of his thought processes. Plus, near as we can tell the only thing Thanos does is reverse the physical changes to his body (& Chair) whereas a Speed Steal would effect more than just his body. If Wally speed steals something in mid air, the object doesn't even fall to the ground. So that's a step beyond a simple physical effect.

He is hollowed out without a brain. No, it's not specifically targeting the speed of his thought processes, but it's for sure targeting ALL of his thought processes and the capacity to even HAVE thought processes at any speed at all by 'Removes Brain'. For me, that's a more severe impediment to 'thinking' than 'made slower'. But again, mileage may vary.

Additionally, based off what we've seen Thanos only reverses the effects after he's moved beyond the effect asserting them, he doesn't ever fight against them directly. So what's stopping Wally from just continuing to still his speed until he's been incapacitated long enough for a ten count.

Based on what do we know he has moved beyond the effect?

If we're going to get picky about 'what's on panel', at what point does he reverse the effect or does the effect get bounced? There's no showing of a barrier or border being crossed. There's nothing but Thanos and his chair, undergoing alteration then coming back.

I mean, if we're going to get picky about 'what is shown and what is not', how can you tell he isn't reversing the effect while still in that dimension? He gets hit with it. His response is 'Reality has a minimal effect on me. I always hold true to my being'. Does that happen after he leaves? Or just happens while he's still in that area, because 'screw you, Thanos, reality has a minimal effect on me'.

Also, I feel that part is getting forgotten here. Thanos is just...having this stuff done to him and saying 'Yeah, this is just nothing. Minimal effect. No biggie.' Not 'wow, this is tough. But I'm managing'. Nope. 'Meh. Hollowed out and shattered. Minimal effect. I shrug it off effortlessly.' And before people say 'that's just narrative', he's actually shown...shrugging it off. Effortlessly. Guy doesn't show any strain, pain, change of expression (other than when his face gets warped, but that's a factor of his face getting warped ^_^), nothing.

It's not like he's saying 'these things hit me hard, but I endure them and when they end, I'm cool.' No, he flat-out states 'Yeah, reality? Minimal effect.'

Which bears up the idea that sure, all of this could still be happening WITHIN those regions. It's minimal. He regards it as a nothing. Perfectly reasonable, then, that it's happening and he's reversing it while still within the area in which it happened.

One can say this is all speculation, so great. I then point to the idea that 'it's only happening after he leaves that dimension' and ask 'where's the proof of THAT idea?' Isn't it all speculation as well, seeing as what's on panel is Thanos? And his chair. And that's all. Again, we don't see him leaving the dimensions, THEN recovering, etc. Nope, we just see him, unconcerned, getting hit with effects, bouncing back, and going on about how reality's effects on him are just...minimal.

We haven't established that he can do that. Just that he can endure being transformed and then is able to regain his functions.

Regain his functions how?

Autonomously? Then it doesn't matter, he's going to similarly autonomously regain his functions from a speed steal.

By actually taking action? Then it's established he can do that.

Take your pick, either way he's recovering from different stuff that is twisting him up like a pretzel in a whole bunch of different ways. Either he's bouncing it because it just bounces (in which case, the argument is same deal with the Speed Steal), or he's bouncing it because he's capable of thinking or acting or whatever when his head is hollowed out and shattered, in which case I fail to see why a speed steal is going to much harder to think through than 'lacks that thing that is 100% responsible for thinking'. ^_^

[Sharpandpointies]

As an aside, I'll note that Speed Steal doesn't work on some beings. Without even getting into No Limites Fallacies, we know that people who mess around with time, at least, can out-and-out ignore speed steal.

It's not infallible.

Thanos, here, is a guy who is essentially shrugging off reality's attempts to warp and twist him. Entire realms where anyone who entered would be subject to this and would, as he notes, die from it unless they were his equal or greater. I'm of the opinion that maybe it's also somewhat on the Flash to have feats showing that he can speed steal someone who can out and out say 'eff off' to reality itself and its attempts to mess with him.

[Slade1]

One thing to consider is that all those effects were harming Thanos and he recovered. A speed steal in no way harms Thanos. To Thanos he’s perfectly fine and from his perspective he’s moving at his normal speed.

[StupidMoniker]

or he's bouncing it because he's capable of thinking or acting or whatever when his head is hollowed out and shattered, in which case I fail to see why a speed steal is going to much harder to think through than 'lacks that thing that is 100% responsible for thinking'. ^_^

That assumes Thanos thinks with his brain, and that his brain is located in his head. Maybe he thinks with a distributed neural system throughout his body, or he uses a brain but the brain is in his backside. It would explain why he can still think with an empty skull.

There is certainly precedent for characters thinking without a brain though. Iceman, Deadman, Obsidian, Shadow Thief, the various stretchy people that can turn into a thin film.

[Jcogginsa]

He is hollowed out without a brain. No, it's not specifically targeting the speed of his thought processes, but it's for sure targeting ALL of his thought processes and the capacity to even HAVE thought processes at any speed at all by 'Removes Brain'. For me, that's a more severe impediment to 'thinking' than 'made slower'. But again, mileage may vary.

I mean, Thanos is a mutated version of an alien species that has "complete control of their bodies molecules " as a standard feature. Humans may need their brains to think but Thanos needing that feels like an unfounded assemption.

Based on what do we know he has moved beyond the effect?

If we're going to get picky about 'what's on panel', at what point does he reverse the effect or does the effect get bounced? There's no showing of a barrier or border being crossed. There's nothing but Thanos and his chair, undergoing alteration then coming back.

I mean, if we're going to get picky about 'what is shown and what is not', how can you tell he isn't reversing the effect while still in that dimension? He gets hit with it. His response is 'Reality has a minimal effect on me. I always hold true to my being'. Does that happen after he leaves? Or just happens while he's still in that area, because 'screw you, Thanos, reality has a minimal effect on me'.

Well, in the comic, we never see Thanos actually enter the screwy dimensional area. They cut to a new scene and Thanos is already flying through the crazy dimensional space. Then the dimensional space starts effect him. he continues to fly forward, and then he stops getting effected.

The simplest explanation is that he flew through a more dangerous part of the dimensional space and then flew out of it. Because there's not a lot of viable alternatives in the art.

And at the end of the day, we have panels where at best Thanos is shown being able to undo changes that have already happened to him. And in the context of the speed steal that's a very important distinction, because he'll be under the effects of the speed steal when he starts undoing it. So logically he'd have lost by Ten count before he even gets the chance to start.

[Sharpandpointies]

That assumes Thanos thinks with his brain, and that his brain is located in his head. Maybe he thinks with a distributed neural system throughout his body, or he uses a brain but the brain is in his backside. It would explain why he can still think with an empty skull.

There is certainly precedent for characters thinking without a brain though. Iceman, Deadman, Obsidian, Shadow Thief, the various stretchy people that can turn into a thin film.

I mean, Thanos is a mutated version of an alien species that has "complete control of their bodies molecules " as a standard feature. Humans may need their brains to think but Thanos needing that feels like an unfounded assemption.

So, I have you both saying 'maybe he has this kind of nervous system' and 'maybe he doesn't need a brain to think', and other things like that, and I'm the one engaging in unfounded assumption and speculation.

The cracking is shown running through his entire body, even if it's just his head that is breaking, so his entire body has changed. In other panels, we see his entire body has become crystal. It's right there.

Simplest explanation without getting into that kind of weirdness is 'Thanos can continue to operate through effects that would otherwise stop him, and does.'

Well, in the comic, we never see Thanos actually enter the screwy dimensional area. They cut to a new scene and Thanos is already flying through the crazy dimensional space. Then the dimensional space starts effect him. he continues to fly forward, and then he stops getting effected.

The simplest explanation is that he flew through a more dangerous part of the dimensional space and then flew out of it. Because there's not a lot of viable alternatives in the art.

And at the end of the day, we have panels where at best Thanos is shown being able to undo changes that have already happened to him. And in the context of the speed steal that's a very important distinction, because he'll be under the effects of the speed steal when he starts undoing it. So logically he'd have lost by Ten count before he even gets the chance to start.

At the end of the day, as you put it, we don't just have that. We have Thanos noting that it would flat-out kill other people. Not that they would fly into the area, then fly out, then be fine because they have changed back. That it would kill them.

And at the end of the day, the thing that continues to get ignored is that the effects on him are 'minimal'. This isn't just 'I am Thanos, Thanos endures despite blah blah blah'. It's 'this is really just like a hangnail to me.' And he can operate through these things. There is NOTHING to show that he leaves the area before bouncing, and yes, nothing to show that he doesn't, but everyone keeps ignoring the narration which at least supports the idea that this stuff is nothing to him and he's bouncing it himself. The narration does NOT support the idea that this is stuff he cannot deal with until he leaves the area.

To add to this, Thanos' chair is under his control. People have been speculating 'maybe it has autopilot.' That's further speculation that isn't held up by anything.

And being under the effects of other powers when he starts undoing them doesn't seem to matter to him. If he can undo changes to himself that have already happened, well, he needs to do that. And to do that he needs to think. And clearly he can, despite being nothing but crystal, despite no longer possessing his insides, etc. Why would a speed steal not be yet another minimal effect, one he can think through despite the slowdown, much as he thinks through stuff despite his atomic structure being changed to crystalline material, despite him losing the insides of his body and his brain and cracking to pieces, etc.?

And I notice that people ignoring some parts of my posts. Nobody has yet talked about the fact that Thanos considers all of this minimal, close to nothing to him. And nobody has ponied up any list of beings that Flash HAS speed-stolen, and demonstrated he's capable of doing this to someone who has resisted esoteric effects on themselves. Like Thanos has. Especially a being that has resisted such effects of Thanos' level of power.

One thing to consider is that all those effects were harming Thanos and he recovered. A speed steal in no way harms Thanos. To Thanos he’s perfectly fine and from his perspective he’s moving at his normal speed.

If Thanos' mind/reactions/whatever allows him to bounce this stuff continues to operate through his brain getting vanished or turned into crystalline material along with the rest of him, I'm pretty sure it continues to operate and notices other changes like 'being frozen into a statue by an external use of the speed force'.

I mean, mileage my vary, and I realize the panels are open for some speculation (hey, I'm admitting that much...not seeing so much of that on the other side, mind), but my feeling is still that between the narration and what we actually see, there's enough support for the idea of 'Esoteric hits Thanos, does not inconvenience, he bounces it' that I'm sticking to it.

[Sharpandpointies]

To reduce this further to the simplest possible thing that is actually in line with what we see on the page, we get this:

1. Thanos gets altered;
2. He notes the effect is minimal, when it would have been a Very Bad Thing™ in another;
3. He bounces it.

That's it. Done. That's what the page shows.

[Nik Hasta]

And I notice that people ignoring some parts of my posts. Nobody has yet talked about the fact that Thanos considers all of this minimal, close to nothing to him. And nobody has ponied up any list of beings that Flash HAS speed-stolen, and demonstrated he's capable of doing this to someone who has resisted esoteric effects on themselves. Like Thanos has. Especially a being that has resisted such effects of Thanos' level of power.

My take is that the Thanos Quest feat shows that Thanos cannot stop esoteric effects, in this case reality warping, from having some effect on him. He is turned into crystal, he is hollowed out and shattered, etc. Now, of the effects shown, none of them seem to interact with his mind but then none of them, as far as we know, are targeting the function of his mind specifically in the way that Speed Drain would. Thanos made of crystal would still think and react at the same speed as conventional Thanos.

Speed Manipulation, draining and lending, has a specific effect as it specifically slows the target and their mental processes. Ergo, while I think that Thanos would be perfectly capable of bouncing the effect, my feeling is that the time it would take him to think whatever "Nope," would take longer because, while he is effected, his processes are slowed.

This could, in my mind, lead to a ten count.

In terms of what Flash has speed-drained, Wally has done it to an entire planet - to offset the stress of Superman, Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter dragging it around during Obsidian Age - he's done it to multiple fellow speedsters, done it to Amazo when he had the same powerset as him. He does not, to my knowledge, have the feats of draining someone with Thanos' specific kind of all-purpose resistances.

Further to that, Barry is the current main Flash as I understand it (I'm hardly up to date) and, from looking through a few more recent respect threads, he doesn't seem to have many if any speed draining feats to his name.

So this could be a moo point. A cow's opinion.

My end takeaway is that Wally, specifically, could likely speedsteal Thanos long enough to get a ten count. Based on the Thanos Quest feat alone, there's not a great case for Thanos to be able to completely ignore it in my opinion.

In a scenario battle with count out off the table, Thanos will overcome it and telepathically zorch him into the ground.

[Sharpandpointies]

Still my question is ‘if nothing in these changes affects Thames’s ability to think and bounce them in any meaningful fashion - ANY meaningful fashion - why should Speed Steal get a pass?’ Sure, it slows him down - one could argue ‘he can’t think nope fast’. This stuff should flat-out REMOVE his capacity to do anything - that should mean ‘he can’t think nope at all’.

Yet clearly he does. And it’s considered as ‘minimal’.