'Jean Grey' by Louise Simonson & Bernard Chang

[Mercury]

"A nexus of probabilities..."

"An anomaly..."

[Phoenixx9]

"A nexus of probabilities..."

"An anomaly..."

Yep! That's our Gal.

There are none like Jean Grey!

[Micabe]

In the 616 timeline, Rachel was Mother Askani, so it's possible, as far as I know. It could also be a case of the writer planning to send them to Cable's future and never getting around to telling the tale. I'm just saying don't jump to conclusions.

I was just saying that as a means to spur the thread along. I mean there isn't much we can say about the new title until it hits the LCS and stands, right?

Yep! That's our Gal.

There are none like Jean Grey!

[Phoenixx9]

"A nexus of probabilities..."

"An anomaly..."

I do always chuckle how much alike Jean and Destiny are dressed here, both in blue and with the head cover.

[emfrst]

Honestly. y'all need 2 accept Jean not Phoenix during dark phoenix sage, it was editorial mandate, so it's real. The retcon gave her life. Have y'all noticed that every time Jean was allowed 2 come back, she always had a clear separation of Jean & Phoenix as separate beings?

That's a good thing.

In the original phoenix saga, if Jean was truly Phoenix the entire time, the subtext is that Jean, as a woman, cannot control her powers when given a cosmic level power up. Don't y'all see how degrading 2 women that is? That a woman cannot wield powers or she will just go crazy.
IF The Phoenix was using a Jean clone during that Phoenix saga, its just a tragic look of what happens when a cosmic level being got subjected 2 human emotions and emotional manipulations.

Ergo, Jean = Phoenix limits Jean stories and power explorations in a glass ceiling. Everytime Jean flexes her muscle,ppl will b concerned if she gonna go dark phoenix again, so writers have 2 relegated her to Mom Jean mode and keep her from getting 2 powerful.

[Havok83]

We dont have to accept anything.

Jean didnt go crazy in DPS simply bc she had too much power. That was never how it was portrayed. She had her mind f--ed with for months by Wyngarde and Emma to the point that she eventually cracked. She was taken advantage of at at time where she was grieving the death of Scott and the rest of the X-men

Given the retcon, it adds an extra layer of context to why Jean would snap. She only had a portion of her soul. She was not complete and would not be fully integrated until Inferno and later Judgement War

I also think there needs to be a distinction between Jean as Phoenix and the Phoenix Force. The PF can and has existed outside of Jean. When it has bonded with and cloned her, it was Jean

I also call BS on her being seen as too powerful if she is Phoenix. Other than eradicating a timeline in HCT, Jean has been shown to be extremely powerful and capable of things she did as Phoenix without having the PF. Go back to the original Claremont run and even Morrison's and she was never really portrayed as uber powerful as Phoenix. She was when compared to her Marvel Girl days but as we saw with Teen Jean and currently under Duggan/Gillen, Jean is more than formidable and has flexxed as one of the most powerful X-men. There's never been a looming that of her going dark bc again it wasnt the power that did that to her

[emfrst]

We dont have to accept anything.

Jean didnt go crazy in DPS simply bc she had too much power. That was never how it was portrayed. She had her mind f--ed with for months by Wyngarde and Emma to the point that she eventually cracked. She was taken advantage of at at time where she was grieving the death of Scott and the rest of the X-men

Given the retcon, it adds an extra layer of context to why Jean would snap. She only had a portion of her soul. She was not complete and would not be fully integrated until Inferno and later Judgement War

I also think there needs to be a distinction between Jean as Phoenix and the Phoenix Force. The PF can and has existed outside of Jean. When it has bonded with and cloned her, it was Jean

I also call BS on her being seen as too powerful if she is Phoenix. Other than eradicating a timeline in HCT, Jean has been shown to be extremely powerful and capable of things she did as Phoenix without having the PF. Go back to the original Claremont run and even Morrison's and she was never really portrayed as uber powerful as Phoenix. She was when compared to her Marvel Girl days but as we saw with Teen Jean and currently under Duggan/Gillen, Jean is more than formidable and has flexxed as one of the most powerful X-men. There's never been a looming that of her going dark bc again it wasnt the power that did that to her

it does not matter if she was mindgamed in2 it, she is still viewed as weak-willed who cannot handle powers like Wanda, the more Jean is associated in there as a main driver, the more limited she is perceived. The fact that she has all these powers but still get trapped by Mastermind & Emma is another thing we need 2 distance Jean from if we ever want 2 see Jean strong w/ her own agency

[Exodus]

it does not matter if she was mindgamed in2 it, she is still viewed as weak-willed who cannot handle powers like Wanda, the more Jean is associated in there as a main driver, the more limited she is perceived. The fact that she has all these powers but still get trapped by Mastermind & Emma is another thing we need 2 distance Jean from if we ever want 2 see Jean strong w/ her own agency

no sorry, over-symplified interpretation of the Phoenix Saga AND Dark Phoenix Saga. Happy to see that the Church of Jean Grey is already on it! ;-)

I also don't think that after the last 40 years of story-telling Jean Grey as a character lacks any agency...She is constantly hovering at the brink of godhood and has made the conscious decision to stay human! That is my interpretation of her as a character.

I find the discussion about the Phoenix Saga also over-done at this point.

[PotniaTheron]

Honestly. y'all need 2 accept Jean not Phoenix during dark phoenix sage, it was editorial mandate, so it's real. The retcon gave her life. Have y'all noticed that every time Jean was allowed 2 come back, she always had a clear separation of Jean & Phoenix as separate beings?

That's a good thing.

In the original phoenix saga, if Jean was truly Phoenix the entire time, the subtext is that Jean, as a woman, cannot control her powers when given a cosmic level power up. Don't y'all see how degrading 2 women that is? That a woman cannot wield powers or she will just go crazy.
IF The Phoenix was using a Jean clone during that Phoenix saga, its just a tragic look of what happens when a cosmic level being got subjected 2 human emotions and emotional manipulations.

Ergo, Jean = Phoenix limits Jean stories and power explorations in a glass ceiling. Everytime Jean flexes her muscle,ppl will b concerned if she gonna go dark phoenix again, so writers have 2 relegated her to Mom Jean mode and keep her from getting 2 powerful.

I don't think Dark Phoenix Saga will have any negative impact on Jean. At that time, women were expected to suppress their desires, but women were also human and had desires, which should also be satisfied. What Dark Phoenix is a metaphor for is how unreasonable it is to ask women to suppress their desire, and how serious the consequences will be. But in the same way, Jean finally chose to commit suicide, giving up the power second only to Creator, the chance to become a god and her own life for the benefit of all creation, which proves that she is a hero, possessing heroic virtues in addition to mortal desires.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Honestly. y'all need 2 accept Jean not Phoenix during dark phoenix sage, it was editorial mandate, so it's real. The retcon gave her life. Have y'all noticed that every time Jean was allowed 2 come back, she always had a clear separation of Jean & Phoenix as separate beings?

That's a good thing.

In the original phoenix saga, if Jean was truly Phoenix the entire time, the subtext is that Jean, as a woman, cannot control her powers when given a cosmic level power up. Don't y'all see how degrading 2 women that is? That a woman cannot wield powers or she will just go crazy.
IF The Phoenix was using a Jean clone during that Phoenix saga, its just a tragic look of what happens when a cosmic level being got subjected 2 human emotions and emotional manipulations.

Ergo, Jean = Phoenix limits Jean stories and power explorations in a glass ceiling. Everytime Jean flexes her muscle,ppl will b concerned if she gonna go dark phoenix again, so writers have 2 relegated her to Mom Jean mode and keep her from getting 2 powerful.

The characters are on some level supposed to be scared of Jean, Jean is supposed to worry about herself on some level as well, and at the same time it's supposed to be her nature to show she cares about almost everyone, even as she and they wonder if she might flare up one day. That's complexity.


These are the types of posts you get with old-fashioned Byrne Rosenberg Hickman-type narratives and lame transparent efforts to take Jean out of her Phoenix stories.

[PotniaTheron]

it does not matter if she was mindgamed in2 it, she is still viewed as weak-willed who cannot handle powers like Wanda, the more Jean is associated in there as a main driver, the more limited she is perceived. The fact that she has all these powers but still get trapped by Mastermind & Emma is another thing we need 2 distance Jean from if we ever want 2 see Jean strong w/ her own agency

Who do you think has a better handle on power than Jean? Wanda? Wanda has lost control more times than Jean. In my memory, she has lost control three times. Her reasons for losing control are even more ridiculous. Jean lost control because she was mentally tortured while gaining God-like power. The reason Wanda lost control was because of her husband and children.

And Jean has already mastered the power perfectly. She witnessed her husband betraying herself and having an affair with other women in NXM, and did not become Dark Phoenix. In Here Comes Tomorrow, she mastered Phoenix Force perfectly, became a god, and even graciously brought Scott and Emma together.

[Grinning Soul]

Honestly. y'all need 2 accept Jean not Phoenix during dark phoenix sage, it was editorial mandate, so it's real. The retcon gave her life. Have y'all noticed that every time Jean was allowed 2 come back, she always had a clear separation of Jean & Phoenix as separate beings?

That's a good thing.

In the original phoenix saga, if Jean was truly Phoenix the entire time, the subtext is that Jean, as a woman, cannot control her powers when given a cosmic level power up. Don't y'all see how degrading 2 women that is? That a woman cannot wield powers or she will just go crazy.
IF The Phoenix was using a Jean clone during that Phoenix saga, its just a tragic look of what happens when a cosmic level being got subjected 2 human emotions and emotional manipulations.

Ergo, Jean = Phoenix limits Jean stories and power explorations in a glass ceiling. Everytime Jean flexes her muscle,ppl will b concerned if she gonna go dark phoenix again, so writers have 2 relegated her to Mom Jean mode and keep her from getting 2 powerful.

We only need to accept what is canon and the original retcon has been walked back several times. The maximum we can accept (and should, in my opinion) is that it's messy and contradictory.

Your interpretation of it - or ours - is irrelevant.

EDITED: your interpretation of it = your interpretation of what it means for Jean as a character

[Micabe]

"A nexus of probabilities..."

"An anomaly..."

Apparently, Telepathy, Telekinesis and a moniker are not the only traits Rachel inherited from her mother

[jwatson]

Honestly. y'all need 2 accept Jean not Phoenix during dark phoenix sage, it was editorial mandate, so it's real. The retcon gave her life. Have y'all noticed that every time Jean was allowed 2 come back, she always had a clear separation of Jean & Phoenix as separate beings?

That's a good thing.

In the original phoenix saga, if Jean was truly Phoenix the entire time, the subtext is that Jean, as a woman, cannot control her powers when given a cosmic level power up. Don't y'all see how degrading 2 women that is? That a woman cannot wield powers or she will just go crazy.
IF The Phoenix was using a Jean clone during that Phoenix saga, its just a tragic look of what happens when a cosmic level being got subjected 2 human emotions and emotional manipulations.

Ergo, Jean = Phoenix limits Jean stories and power explorations in a glass ceiling. Everytime Jean flexes her muscle,ppl will b concerned if she gonna go dark phoenix again, so writers have 2 relegated her to Mom Jean mode and keep her from getting 2 powerful.

I think it's more degrading to leave a woman in that state of fear to accept who she is because of her "losing control" of her own power. Usually a hero's journey would entail her conquering that aspect of herself rather than continuously running away from it. Naruto wasn't kyuubi, but he kind of was. Then i think it's even more degrading that a million other characters could handle the power, albeit fragments when Jean is far more powerful than the others who did contain it. So either it was because of the mental manipulation or because Jean is just a weaker character than the others, both in will and strength which i don't believe to be the case.

[Havok83]

it does not matter if she was mindgamed in2 it, she is still viewed as weak-willed who cannot handle powers like Wanda, the more Jean is associated in there as a main driver, the more limited she is perceived. The fact that she has all these powers but still get trapped by Mastermind & Emma is another thing we need 2 distance Jean from if we ever want 2 see Jean strong w/ her own agency

Um just no. You view her as weak willed but that is not how she is portrayed and ignores all the progress she’s made since Morrison, Bendis and now Gillen and Duggan.