Gerry Dugan splits apart the XBooks “premier couple” LOL

[Grunty]

Considering the "premier couple" of the X-men world, which editorial and writers have pushed and shipped for the last 2 and a half decades, were arguably suffering and bleakness, i would not mind seeing those two going seperated ways.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

What i'm reading here is confusing. Jean and Bishop have not had a relationship in 616 but because of what happened in the alternate universe (one in which nate controlled everyone, even an omega level telepath) i don't see how that would turn a single jean turning to bishop into "a relationship based on when she had the least agency" Wouldn't the relationship most likely be based on the long history they shared as x-men before that even more so than that moment of least agency. Seems like a weird wording to get in front of a potential couple. I mean i could see it if the series was mentioned but it wasn't.

Right? If I were a writer trying to put them together, it would probably be based on something new happening between them. People just get weird about the idea of Jean Grey existing outside of a Cyclocentric orbit. Jean Grey certainly didn't have any agency when she was dead for 15 years solely because the idea of her living while not with Cyclops was so untenable.

[v_jeovanne]

Orchis still have the body from HoX when they destroyed that Mother Mold. Maybe the new Captain Krakoa is using Scott's reanimated body.

Thanks, I couldn't remember a body of Scott in Orchis's possession, I was thinking of the body from X-men #7, also the Krakoa captain suit can be used by anyone, so maybe a body reanimated with the Orchis version of the serum of super soldier.

[Omega Alpha]

Isn't "Cyclops is framed as being evil" literally the plot from IvX. Are they so out of ideas they're recycling stuff from the most unpopular X-Men story ever?

[v_jeovanne]

Isn't "Cyclops is framed as being evil" literally the plot from IvX. Are they so out of ideas they're recycling stuff from the most unpopular X-Men story ever?

They are just ideas, nobody is saying that it will happen.

[Gray Lensman]

Isn't "Cyclops is framed as being evil" literally the plot from IvX. Are they so out of ideas they're recycling stuff from the most unpopular X-Men story ever?

It was the plot twist to explain away the post Stupid Wars plot point of him being actually evil, but nobody was willing to accept outside of the Marvel offices. And I doubt it was accepted by most of the writers, because it was that stupid.

[Ra-El]

Honestly, if they really kill Cyclops, like I think they will, I just hope they let him be dead until they decide to bring him back. Just don't use him as they did during the IvX fase, that was just bad.

I don't want stories about how everyone misses him or how important he was or whatever. Kill him and move on, until a writer actually have an idea for the character.

[jwatson]

Right? If I were a writer trying to put them together, it would probably be based on something new happening between them. People just get weird about the idea of Jean Grey existing outside of a Cyclocentric orbit. Jean Grey certainly didn't have any agency when she was dead for 15 years solely because the idea of her living while not with Cyclops was so untenable.

Especially when one can make the argument her time as phoenix is when Jean had the least agency. She had power but little control over herself or actions, was manipulated by wyngarde, but people still want Jean to be Phoenix. So the same question could be posed, why would people want Jean back as phoenix when it's the time she has literally had the least agency.

[Mercury]

Especially when one can make the argument her time as phoenix is when Jean had the least agency. She had power but little control over herself or actions, was manipulated by wyngarde, but people still want Jean to be Phoenix. So the same question could be posed, why would people want Jean back as phoenix when it's the time she has literally had the least agency.

The reasons to amend and preserve Jean's legacy as Phoenix are numerous. First, Claremont created Phoenix as an extension and the ultimate realization of Jean's power and potential, which is why he and others still consider the two one and the same. Second, Claremont and Cockrum intended and fashioned her to be "the first female cosmic hero"—an important distinction that Jean, as the first X-Woman and an iconic character, deserves to have upheld. Third, beyond simply a "power up," this was an important statement made at the outset of the second wave of feminism—a statement that deserves to be preserved—which influenced and continues to influence the development of female comic book characters, from Storm to Scarlet Witch to Captain Marvel. Lastly, the way in which Jean was initially stripped of her power—essentially, by being abused and pushed to a post-traumatic breakdown that led to her suicide—was arguably morally, socially, and politically egregious and warrants rectification.

The last reason above is the one that resonates most with me. As much as I love and consider the Dark Phoenix Saga (DPS) to be both incredibly moving and a watershed moment in the comic book medium, I would be remiss to ignore its most troubling aspect: That is, its insensitive treatment of a victim of physical, sexual, and psychological abuse and trauma. In light of the MeToo Movement, which brought attention to the ways in which the abuse and mistreatment of women have historically been overlooked and palliated, this is a critical facet of the DPS that not only warrants attention, exploration, and rectification but should also be used to recontextualize the story and inform Jean's character as a whole. Lastly, I would wager this is one of the reasons why so many fans empathize with Dark Phoenix, despite the death and destruction she caused: She was violated, both in-story, by Mastermind and the Hellfire Club, and out-of-story, by those creatives who could not accept nor exhibit genuine creativity with a female character of such immense power.

As for Jean's agency and autonomy as Phoenix, the only times she lacked either were when Mastermind infiltrated and took control of her mind and later when the Shi'ar prematurely resurrected her. Before that, she saved all creation by repairing the M'kraan Crystal and, in the interim, saved the timeline by rewriting reality, illustrating that she is fully capable of being in control while manifesting her unlimited power and potential. As for her pre-Krakoa return (i.e., Phoenix Resurrection), that story can be viewed in several ways, including as a post-traumatic response and a general and understandable reaction to apotheosis. Ultimately, however, in all the stories in which Jean has lost control, whether due to abuse or manipulation, she has regained and asserted control over her power.

Lastly and generally speaking, I have observed four categories of fans who would rather Jean and Phoenix remain separated: Those fans that (1) associate the pairing with Jean's inevitable death, (2) those who have grown wary and weary of "the Phoenix Force" as a concept, (3) those who want their favorite character(s) to become Phoenix, and (4) those who resent Jean as Phoenix overshadowing and overpowering their favorite character(s). These all constitute valid and understandable reasons for hoping Jean and Phoenix remain distinct. However, I obviously disagree with them.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Especially when one can make the argument her time as phoenix is when Jean had the least agency. She had power but little control over herself or actions, was manipulated by wyngarde, but people still want Jean to be Phoenix. So the same question could be posed, why would people want Jean back as phoenix when it's the time she has literally had the least agency.

Jean made several choices as Phoenix, but I am not the type to buy into the "possession" retelling of the story. To me, agency doesn't mean perfectly in control and collected. Take Teen Jean for instance. She wanted Warren to shut up about going back to the past, and went a little bit dark, arguably out of control and lost from herself, in making him do what she wanted in that way telepaths can. That was agency and a choice made, albeit a bad one. So too was deciding to end herself on the moon, so too was bringing Emma Frost back from shattering (though Jean was a suspect lmao), so was manipulating Kitty's dad. Heck, eating a star was a choice too, unless you go by the Rosenberg possession theory. Jean had agency as Phoenix, she just made human choices sometimes (and sometimes altruistic choices too).


Beyond agency, Phoenix is also Jean at her most beautiful, most terrible, most wild, most grown, most tempted, most complicated, most dangerous, most TRUE self.

[Daedra]

The reasons to amend and preserve Jean's legacy as Phoenix are numerous. First, Claremont created Phoenix as an extension and the ultimate realization of Jean's power and potential, which is why he and others still consider the two one and the same. Second, Claremont and Cockrum intended and fashioned her to be "the first female cosmic hero"—an important distinction that Jean, as the first X-Woman and an iconic character, deserves to have upheld. Third, beyond simply a "power up," this was an important statement made at the outset of the second wave of feminism—a statement that deserves to be preserved—which influenced and continues to influence the development of female comic book characters, from Storm to Scarlet Witch to Captain Marvel. Lastly, the way in which Jean was initially stripped of her power—essentially, by being abused and pushed to a post-traumatic breakdown that led to her suicide—was arguably morally, socially, and politically egregious and warrants rectification.

The last reason above is the one that resonates most with me. As much as I love and consider the Dark Phoenix Saga (DPS) to be both incredibly moving and a watershed moment in the comic book medium, I would be remiss to ignore its most troubling aspect: That is, its insensitive treatment of a victim of physical, sexual, and psychological abuse and trauma. In light of the MeToo Movement, which brought attention to the ways in which the abuse and mistreatment of women have historically been overlooked and palliated, this is a critical facet of the DPS that not only warrants attention, exploration, and rectification but should also be used to recontextualize the story and inform Jean's character as a whole. Lastly, I would wager this is one of the reasons why so many fans empathize with Dark Phoenix, despite the death and destruction she caused: She was violated, both in-story, by Mastermind and the Hellfire Club, and out-of-story, by those creatives who could not accept nor exhibit genuine creativity with a female character of such immense power.

As for Jean's agency and autonomy as Phoenix, the only times she lacked either were when Mastermind infiltrated and took control of her mind and later when the Shi'ar prematurely resurrected her. Before that, she saved all creation by repairing the M'kraan Crystal and, in the interim, saved the timeline by rewriting reality, illustrating that she is fully capable of being in control while manifesting her unlimited power and potential. As for her pre-Krakoa return (i.e., Phoenix Resurrection), that story can be viewed in several ways, including as a post-traumatic response and a general and understandable reaction to apotheosis. Ultimately, however, in all the stories in which Jean has lost control, whether due to abuse or manipulation, she has regained and asserted control over her power.

Lastly and generally speaking, I have observed four categories of fans who would rather Jean and Phoenix remain separated: Those fans that (1) associate the pairing with Jean's inevitable death, (2) those who have grown wary and weary of "the Phoenix Force" as a concept, (3) those who want their favorite character(s) to become Phoenix, and (4) those who resent Jean as Phoenix overshadowing and overpowering their favorite character(s). These all constitute valid and understandable reasons for hoping Jean and Phoenix remain distinct. However, I obviously disagree with them.

Jean made several choices as Phoenix, but I am not the type to buy into the "possession" retelling of the story. To me, agency doesn't mean perfectly in control and collected. Take Teen Jean for instance. She wanted Warren to shut up about going back to the past, and went a little bit dark, arguably out of control and lost from herself, in making him do what she wanted in that way telepaths can. That was agency and a choice made, albeit a bad one. So too was deciding to end herself on the moon, so too was bringing Emma Frost back from shattering (though Jean was a suspect lmao), so was manipulating Kitty's dad. Heck, eating a star was a choice too, unless you go by the Rosenberg possession theory. Jean had agency as Phoenix, she just made human choices sometimes (and sometimes altruistic choices too).


Beyond agency, Phoenix is also Jean at her most beautiful, most terrible, most wild, most grown, most tempted, most complicated, most dangerous, most TRUE self.

Thank you guys, you really get the essence of Jean, You two make such a good points I don’t know how I would ever truly enjoy the boards without your contribution.

[jwatson]

The reasons to amend and preserve Jean's legacy as Phoenix are numerous. First, Claremont created Phoenix as an extension and the ultimate realization of Jean's power and potential, which is why he and others still consider the two one and the same. Second, Claremont and Cockrum intended and fashioned her to be "the first female cosmic hero"—an important distinction that Jean, as the first X-Woman and an iconic character, deserves to have upheld. Third, beyond simply a "power up," this was an important statement made at the outset of the second wave of feminism—a statement that deserves to be preserved—which influenced and continues to influence the development of female comic book characters, from Storm to Scarlet Witch to Captain Marvel. Lastly, the way in which Jean was initially stripped of her power—essentially, by being abused and pushed to a post-traumatic breakdown that led to her suicide—was arguably morally, socially, and politically egregious and warrants rectification.

The last reason above is the one that resonates most with me. As much as I love and consider the Dark Phoenix Saga (DPS) to be both incredibly moving and a watershed moment in the comic book medium, I would be remiss to ignore its most troubling aspect: That is, its insensitive treatment of a victim of physical, sexual, and psychological abuse and trauma. In light of the MeToo Movement, which brought attention to the ways in which the abuse and mistreatment of women have historically been overlooked and palliated, this is a critical facet of the DPS that not only warrants attention, exploration, and rectification but should also be used to recontextualize the story and inform Jean's character as a whole. Lastly, I would wager this is one of the reasons why so many fans empathize with Dark Phoenix, despite the death and destruction she caused: She was violated, both in-story, by Mastermind and the Hellfire Club, and out-of-story, by those creatives who could not accept nor exhibit genuine creativity with a female character of such immense power.

As for Jean's agency and autonomy as Phoenix, the only times she lacked either were when Mastermind infiltrated and took control of her mind and later when the Shi'ar prematurely resurrected her. Before that, she saved all creation by repairing the M'kraan Crystal and, in the interim, saved the timeline by rewriting reality, illustrating that she is fully capable of being in control while manifesting her unlimited power and potential. As for her pre-Krakoa return (i.e., Phoenix Resurrection), that story can be viewed in several ways, including as a post-traumatic response and a general and understandable reaction to apotheosis. Ultimately, however, in all the stories in which Jean has lost control, whether due to abuse or manipulation, she has regained and asserted control over her power.

Lastly and generally speaking, I have observed four categories of fans who would rather Jean and Phoenix remain separated: Those fans that (1) associate the pairing with Jean's inevitable death, (2) those who have grown wary and weary of "the Phoenix Force" as a concept, (3) those who want their favorite character(s) to become Phoenix, and (4) those who resent Jean as Phoenix overshadowing and overpowering their favorite character(s). These all constitute valid and understandable reasons for hoping Jean and Phoenix remain distinct. However, I obviously disagree with them.

Jean made several choices as Phoenix, but I am not the type to buy into the "possession" retelling of the story. To me, agency doesn't mean perfectly in control and collected. Take Teen Jean for instance. She wanted Warren to shut up about going back to the past, and went a little bit dark, arguably out of control and lost from herself, in making him do what she wanted in that way telepaths can. That was agency and a choice made, albeit a bad one. So too was deciding to end herself on the moon, so too was bringing Emma Frost back from shattering (though Jean was a suspect lmao), so was manipulating Kitty's dad. Heck, eating a star was a choice too, unless you go by the Rosenberg possession theory. Jean had agency as Phoenix, she just made human choices sometimes (and sometimes altruistic choices too).


Beyond agency, Phoenix is also Jean at her most beautiful, most terrible, most wild, most grown, most tempted, most complicated, most dangerous, most TRUE self.

I don't disagree. The whole point was Jean lacked autonomy in a sense during that story. It was mentioned Bishop/jean would be a problem because it happened during a time when Jean apparently lacked autonomy despite it being an AU. So if that is the barometer for her relationships it should be applied to all the moments she lacked autonomy unless there is a reason beyond that there is a problem with Bishop and Jean. So less directly about Jean being phoenix and more about the circumstance jean was in and how that informs her relationships.

Especially when in said story it was stated Jean/Bishop weren't suppose to happen, so it's not even like something Nate specifically set up. Felt very much like the "oh synch is now too old for laura" or "synch is only going after laura because of vault laura and if he does get with laura he is taking advantage because of the one he knew from the vault" but then if that's the case thor must be taking advange of jane since he is millions of years old or Logan must be the biggest creeper ever since he has more experience mentally than most the women he has been with.

[Gray Lensman]

I don't disagree. The whole point was Jean lacked autonomy in a sense during that story. It was mentioned Bishop/jean would be a problem because it happened during a time when Jean apparently lacked autonomy despite it being an AU. So if that is the barometer for her relationships it should be applied to all the moments she lacked autonomy unless there is a reason beyond that there is a problem with Bishop and Jean. So less directly about Jean being phoenix and more about the circumstance jean was in and how that informs her relationships.

Especially when in said story it was stated Jean/Bishop weren't suppose to happen, so it's not even like something Nate specifically set up. Felt very much like the "oh synch is now too old for laura" or "synch is only going after laura because of vault laura and if he does get with laura he is taking advantage because of the one he knew from the vault" but then if that's the case thor must be taking advange of jane since he is millions of years old or Logan must be the biggest creeper ever since he has more experience mentally than most the women he has been with.

The biggest problem with Synch and Laura is that it happened off panel. The age gap loses issue once one person is beyond the age any normal person can ever reach - you can't just shut down all romance possibilities for a character unless that's part of the character to begin with (someone out there has to be asexual), and the issue of projection was handled on page, with both characters struggling with it. The character with knowledge knowing that it isn't fair to the other to project their feelings onto the one who no longer has any memory of the relationship but struggling anyways is in many ways the human condition. If my wife died and someone who was basically her but without the memories of our relationship came into my life I don't know how I would handle it. I'd like to think I'd do the right thing, but I say that without the feelings of anguish and loss that would get in the way of sound judgement.

[jwatson]

The biggest problem with Synch and Laura is that it happened off panel. The age gap loses issue once one person is beyond the age any normal person can ever reach - you can't just shut down all romance possibilities for a character unless that's part of the character to begin with (someone out there has to be asexual), and the issue of projection was handled on page, with both characters struggling with it. The character with knowledge knowing that it isn't fair to the other to project their feelings onto the one who no longer has any memory of the relationship but struggling anyways is in many ways the human condition. If my wife died and someone who was basically her but without the memories of our relationship came into my life I don't know how I would handle it. I'd like to think I'd do the right thing, but I say that without the feelings of anguish and loss that would get in the way of sound judgement.

It could have also been written as " she's nothing like the laura from the vault, but yet i'm still drawn to her." as well. But there was a heavy leaning in on how and why and the many ways it would be manipulative or taking advantage of Laura for it to happen, before anything was written post vault. And if that's the case, before the story is written those same things should apply to others, too old, too skilled, too much experience, nexus of all realities so in a way connected to all incarnations of someone so advantage. Storm and them saw the future in Immortal so if she dates anyone she saw in that future she has future knowledge. i mean if it's applied equally it becomes ridiculous without knowing how it actually plays out.

[Kitty&Piotr<3]

Thank you guys, you really get the essence of Jean, You two make such a good points I don’t know how I would ever truly enjoy the boards without your contribution.

Wow, thanks Daedra!