Another Helm's Deep Defense!

[Postmania]

I never really get tired of these threads

Edit: The situation has the following dumped into the Helm's Deep defense as in the movies but the named characters are not present and there are no elvish archers. So no Theoden, no Aragorn, etc. There are also no reinforcements from Gandalf coming. Those coming in will also have an awareness of the situation down to as much detail as anyone watching the movies and can try to raise morale as they can.

1) Team Action Heroes(?) which consists of

Dutch (Predator) and his team
Harrigan (Predator 2)
John Matrix (Commando)
John Rambo (Rambo movies)
Luc Deveraux (Universal Soldier)
Todd (Soldier)
John Kruger (Eraser)
Douglas Quaid (Total Recall)
Harry Trasker (True Lies)
Jason Bourne
Bryan Mills (Taken)
James Bond (Craig films)
John Wick (John Wick)
The Predators themselves from the first film, the second film, and Prey (2022)

Everything that they used in their movies is available to them. So every gun John wick has ever picked up and discarded, every suit, etc. Also for this group in particular I’m giving them a month to prep

2) Galadriel, Halbrand, and every Numenorean who fought alongside them from the series Rings of Power

3) Batman and his entire Batfamily (excludes anyone who is wildly outside of street level for some reason)

4) Agent Smith as of the second movie. He is allowed to take over folks but only up to a limit of 100, and when he hits the 100 limit he cannot make more even when he loses people and drops below 100

5) The Birds from The Birds movie

6) The Alien queen and her hive from Aliens

7) 100 T-800s along with those guns they were shown using in T2

8) 20 Abrams tanks with full crew from the US Army

9) MCU Quicksilver

10)
Team Foxverse X-men made up of:

Deadpool
Cable
Wolverine
Sabretooth
Toad
Mystique
Nightcrawler
Lady Deathstrike
X-23
X-24
Beast

11) Gabriel Yulaw (there is a giant mountain of bodies which he stands on and is deposited in front of the battlements where he is at)

Bonus modifier: Does it make any difference if the army at Helm's Deep is replaced by the army at the end of Return of the King for these scenarios?

[Captain Smith]

The attacking forces were about 10,000 estimated (at least in the film). I really don't see how the H2H folks like the Bats crew help much if the Orcs and human attackers push on. The good folks can probably hold tight areas for a bit before being overwhelmed.

The gun guys probably are more effective in holding passages but will run out of ammo. Now with a month to prep and unlimited supplies they can establish hard points that have to be assaulted under fire to be taken. Do Orcs care about casualties? The tanks can undertake the Orcs at a distance before they reach the walls, that might make a difference.

But some peak human H2H or mildly street level powered folks will defend areas but will be flowed around. The Orcs were flanked by large forces and that did it. So these folks will help them hold on until help arrives. That's still the solution.

If you want a hero you need some with area attack, aerial abiities. Of course, you could argue the fastest MCU Quicksilver can run around slitting throats. Could he do all the Orcs?

[Sharpandpointies]

It's JUST these guys, not them added to the normal defenders?

[Postmania]

It's JUST these guys, not them added to the normal defenders?

Let’s say it’s them at helms deep with the army but with all named characters and the elvish reinforcements missing. So no Aragorn, Theoden, etc and no elf archers. And no reinforcements from Gandalf. Let's also say that everyone coming in has an awareness of the situation (as much as anyone who watched the movies) and can try to raise morale by any means, just so we can add that element into things

[Sharpandpointies]

I'm going to be charitable, here, and assume you mean the Huorns also don't show up. Which makes me sad, because they make for a good thread.

So, if we're basically adding these forces onto the basic Rohirrim forces (and no Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas), I feel...

1) Team Action Heroes(?)

- This group, combined with the Rohirrim, basically murder all hell out of the enemy.

2) Galadriel, Halbrand, and every Numenorean who fought alongside them from the series Rings of Power

- *throws rocks, doesn't answer*

3) Batman and his entire Batfamily (excludes anyone who is wildly outside of street level for some reason)

- I feel the entire Batfamily should be able to hold choke points far better than the heroes of the story. However, they're looking at 10K enemies versus 3K plus the Batfamily. Granted, we're now into a 'Cassandra Cain against the Orcish Hordes of Isengard' (haha, blast from the past), however current Cass isn't nearly as dangerous as Post-Crisis Cass.

I feel this is going to come down to a long-term siege, with all of the problems that entails. The Batfamily will survive, unless they fight to the end - they can escape via stealth - but the battle isn't going to be won.

4) Agent Smith as of the second movie. He is allowed to take over folks but only up to a limit of 100, and when he hits the 100 limit he cannot make more even when he loses people and drops below 100

- Really can't remember this guy's capabilities, but 100 people who are superhuman WILL make a difference. How much? Don't know.

5) The Birds from The Birds movie

- Shocking as it may be, I've never seen The Birds. Can't comment.

6) The Alien queen and her hive from Aliens

Yeaaaaah...this is a bad one for the Orcs. Assuming the Alien Queen is cooperating with the defenders, then 200 or so alien warriors and the Queen herself certainly make for a huge difference, and I totally see this group winning in a siege situation.

7) 100 T-800s along with those guns they were shown using in T2

- Ridiculously easy win for the T-800's.

8) 20 Abrams tanks with full crew from the US Army

- Ridiculously easy win for 20 Abrams tanks.

9) MCU Quicksilver

- I'm not 100% sure MCU version of this character adds enough to make the defenders win this one. Certainly he can deal with choke points and the like, that's not a problem. But outside of that, I'm not thinking he can break the siege. Guy did get tired, after all.

10)
Team Foxverse X-men made up of:

- No idea what Cable can do, so I'm not sure.

11) Gabriel Yulaw (there is a giant mountain of bodies which he stands on and is deposited in front of the battlements where he is at)

- Hilarious image that this is, I don't feel Gabe can out-and-out prevent the Uruk-Hai from killing everyone else. Granted, he's very likely alive at the end of it all, so I guess his side wins. Kind of.

Bonus modifier: Does it make any difference if the army at Helm's Deep is replaced by the army at the end of Return of the King for these scenarios?

Rather. The Rohirrim ran about 3 000 people. The army at the Black Gates, as I recall, ran about 5 000. That's now 5 000 versus 10 000, but the 5 000 are dug in behind fortifications. Plus they have (in general) better 'heroes' all around.

[Postmania]

I'm going to be charitable, here, and assume you mean the Huorns also don't show up. Which makes me sad, because they make for a good thread.

Huh. I forgot about this thread almost entirely despite posting in it. Looks like a fun read.

So, if we're basically adding these forces onto the basic Rohirrim forces (and no Aragorn, Gimli,

2) Galadriel, Halbrand, and every Numenorean who fought alongside them from the series Rings of Power

- *throws rocks, doesn't answer*

I had a feeling you would say this

3) Batman and his entire Batfamily (excludes anyone who is wildly outside of street level for some reason)

- I feel the entire Batfamily should be able to hold choke points far better than the heroes of the story. However, they're looking at 10K enemies versus 3K plus the Batfamily. Granted, we're now into a 'Cassandra Cain against the Orcish Hordes of Isengard' (haha, blast from the past), however current Cass isn't nearly as dangerous as Post-Crisis Cass.

I feel this is going to come down to a long-term siege, with all of the problems that entails. The Batfamily will survive, unless they fight to the end - they can escape via stealth - but the battle isn't going to be won.

Oh, I vaguely remember that thread now. Didn't she win because she could just endlessly stealth and take out troops until the end?

4) Agent Smith as of the second movie. He is allowed to take over folks but only up to a limit of 100, and when he hits the 100 limit he cannot make more even when he loses people and drops below 100

- Really can't remember this guy's capabilities, but 100 people who are superhuman WILL make a difference. How much? Don't know.

Probably the best way to describe him is just him in this scene but he can make more of himself up to 100 I would say. Although taking people over does seem to take a little time so he'll have to sneak in takeovers, but its a big battlefield.

6) The Alien queen and her hive from Aliens

Yeaaaaah...this is a bad one for the Orcs. Assuming the Alien Queen is cooperating with the defenders, then 200 or so alien warriors and the Queen herself certainly make for a huge difference, and I totally see this group winning in a siege situation.

They would also be able to grab some of the orcs with facehuggers and start expanding the hive I think

10)
Team Foxverse X-men made up of:

- No idea what Cable can do, so I'm not sure.

I was going to just link a fight scene but apparently somebody made a video almost purpose made for explaining all that. Although a bunch of things seem more tech specific than general (their telekinesis example) iirc

Bonus modifier: Does it make any difference if the army at Helm's Deep is replaced by the army at the end of Return of the King for these scenarios?

Rather. The Rohirrim ran about 3 000 people. The army at the Black Gates, as I recall, ran about 5 000. That's now 5 000 versus 10 000, but the 5 000 are dug in behind fortifications. Plus they have (in general) better 'heroes' all around.

Oh sorry, I meant it the other way. The army of Mordor in that scene replaces the Uruk-Hai in this scenario

[Sharpandpointies]

I had a feeling you would say this

It's nice to be predictable.

It's kind of telling when any of my discussions re: Rings of Power open with 'By comparison, Jackson's stuff was awesome and super-close to canon in every way'.

Oh, I vaguely remember that thread now. Didn't she win because she could just endlessly stealth and take out troops until the end?

Yeah. I found it a little...optimistic, the issue being Cass needing to sleep at some point and Orcs having pretty decent sense of smell.

Probably the best way to describe him is just him in this scene but he can make more of himself up to 100 I would say. Although taking people over does seem to take a little time so he'll have to sneak in takeovers, but its a big battlefield.

Burly Brawl? Or a different fight? Will have a look.

They would also be able to grab some of the orcs with facehuggers and start expanding the hive I think

Absolutely, only I doubt that would happen a lot in the time this would take. Queen would need to lay eggs, eggs would need to hatch, gestation time is about a day or so, etc. This battle is going to be over by the time all of that happens.

I was going to just link a fight scene but apparently somebody made a video almost purpose made for explaining all that. Although a bunch of things seem more tech specific than general (their telekinesis example) iirc

Will take a look.

Oh sorry, I meant it the other way. The army of Mordor in that scene replaces the Uruk-Hai in this scenario

Ahahaha...okay, that makes a big difference.

Book-canon, the army at the Black Gate numbers at least 60 000, if not more (so minimum 6x the forces). It has the Nazgûl, sans Witch-King (obviously). And it has a whole whack of Olog-hai - Sauron's armed and armored Trolls who are smarter and more dangerous than the previous brutes.

Will consider this as well. It's going to change things. Lots.

[The Arbiter]

Is Team Action Hero allowed to suicide bomb the battlefield with Predator "nuke" technology? I could see a cloaked and angry Predator blundering far enough behind or into enemy lines and then flattening the bulk of the opposition in one tremendous fireball.

Smith is a legit superhuman Bullet Timer. 100 of him would smash through a nearly unlimited wave of orcs without much trouble. He could literally punch holes in them. I cant see the orcs getting past various choke positions with Smith on the prowl.

T800's are similarly invincible death machines that would terrify the orcs.

Tanks achieve an easy victory.

Yu Law cant be everywhere at once. He can beat up a LOT of orcs but Helm's Deep eventually gets overrun even if hes still managed to limp away with his life intact.

[Sharpandpointies]

Tanks achieve an easy victory.

My one issue with the tanks is the bonus round. In that, we have the Nazgûl at full power, and the people in the tanks are going to basically be getting hammered with the fear aura. This is not a good thing.

Other than that, yeah, they wreck everything.

[Postmania]

Is Team Action Hero allowed to suicide bomb the battlefield with Predator "nuke" technology? I could see a cloaked and angry Predator blundering far enough behind or into enemy lines and then flattening the bulk of the opposition in one tremendous fireball.

Gonna say no I suppose for the base scenario, yes for the bonus one

[Captain Smith]

What's the range of Nazgul fear? Their mounts could be shot out of the sky if their range is closer than the gun folks and especially the tank cannons and 50 cal BMGs. The Aliens - how many? They are not invulnerable and strong melee armed warriors will smash them with causalities.

The Birds - welcome lunch for the orcs. Is Galadriel a city smasher yet? The Terminators are the best of the lot if used wisely along with Quicksilver - go for the command structure and that will probably make the low level give it up.

[Sharpandpointies]

What's the range of Nazgul fear?

It starts messing with people's heads when they're so high they're out of sight. I grant you that to hit it at its fullest intensity they're going to need to get close, so...yeah, mounts can get shot down.

The Aliens - how many? They are not invulnerable and strong melee armed warriors will smash them with causalities.

There are about 200 of them, as I recall, plus the Queen.

If it were JUST 200 aliens, I'd say yes, they lose badly. But the scenario is dictating that the Rohirrim are there as well, so we have 200 aliens plus the same 3000 soldiers originally there. I figure that's enough - in a siege situation, with the defenders dug in - that the Uruk-hai aren't going to do so well.

Against the 60 000 army from the black gates with the Olog-hai, yeah, 200 aliens just isn't enough.

[Zagreus]

I'm curious to see if I can eke out a win for the Batfamily...

the current Batfamily would be, not that I'm super up on the most recent books, so I had to google this:

Bruce Wayne / Batman - leader
Cassandra Cain / Orphan
Tim Drake / Red Robin
Barbara Gordon / Batgirl
Harleen Quinzel / Harley Quinn
Richard "Dick" Grayson / Nightwing
David Zavimbe / Batwing
Katherine "Kate" Kane / Batwoman
Selina Kyle / Catwoman
Harper Row / Bluebird
Duke Thomas / The Signal
Jason Todd / Red Hood
Damian Wayne / Robin
Lucius Fox
Stephanie "Steph" Brown / Spoiler
Lucas "Luke" Fox / Batwing
Helena Bertinelli / Huntress
Minhkhoa "Khoa" Khan / Ghost-Maker
James Gordon
Elizabeth "Bette" Kane / Hawkfire
Ace the Bathound

Clayface is out because he's superhuman, It's lame to count Terry McGinnis because he's from a damn future continuity, Gotham Girl is also out because she has Kryptonian level powers! Azrael is currently dead (a shame, I liked him), so is Alfred, unfortunately. I'll just delete them from the list above (done). The internet lists "Julia Pennyworth" but that seems like BS as she's not going on missions with Batman. Deleted. Lucius Fox has tech-saavy that could be useful. He's old, but he stays.

This is a team of 20 Bat-agents. Will Batman kill orcs. I think he will. He, Dick, and Tim, may hesitate in the beginning, but Cass, Jim, Harley and Jason certainly won't. Some of these characters bring significant firepower with them as standard equipment, and Red Hood and Batwing have significant lethal options. Is it enough? Batman will quickly put together a strategy to save these people. I don't think he stays and fights the Orcs. But he does what he can to save those innocent families. That's what will motivate him.

If I remember the movie correctly, there's a back passage out of Helm's deep, another tunnel out through the back. What I think happens is that Batman and the others have a token force, lure the orcs in, sabotage the place with explosives, and sabotage the mountain valley to boot. Then they lead the people out through the back tunnel, under cover of copious smoke gas, and rig the Helm's Deep to explode, and probably set charges in the mountains to crush the orcs.

If I can think of it, Batman can come up with something better. A win for team Batman.

(Or Batman and the team lore the Uruk-Hai into Helms deep or the Mountain Valley beyond, set up an avalanche there, or flood an area with anesthetic gas, sonics, some combo of the above. With their skill and tech, and the Uruk's stupidity... this is team Bat, all the way. Especially since they have a back way out through the mountains...)

[Captain Smith]

They may be able to engineer an escape. I still opine that up to including peak humans carrying personal equipment will not survive 10,000 orcs unless you convince the orcs to give up the fight. As I said earlier, perhaps they could pull of a steathly attack to remove the Orcs' command structure, leading to a rout. There are historical cases of a few folks winning over thousands when the latter panic. Do orcs panic? Yes, when they lose their command structure.

[Zagreus]

They may be able to engineer an escape. I still opine that up to including peak humans carrying personal equipment will not survive 10,000 orcs unless you convince the orcs to give up the fight. As I said earlier, perhaps they could pull of a steathly attack to remove the Orcs' command structure, leading to a rout. There are historical cases of a few folks winning over thousands when the latter panic. Do orcs panic? Yes, when they lose their command structure.

Yeah, I was thinking of that one too.

I think the Orcs would be convinced they would be fighting "Bat-Wizards" from their perspective. They really can't take out the orcs directly, they'd have to use tricky Bat-tactics against the superior foe.

Anyway, I'd watch that movie. Batman (and Family) vs. Orcs.

Lol.