The Cat is OFFICIALLY out of the bag now (ASM Spoilers)

[Celgress]

I told DC this about Superman and Flash's marriages. I would invest heavily in those titles if they reversed course and restored their marriages and families.

DC listened, and I've been true to my word. And the family adventures of the Superman and Flash family have been some of the BEST comics they've had in a very long time.

I couldn't agree with you more. Both Superman and the Flash comics are the best they've been in years since adding the family elements, IMHO. Sure, you have those who say Superman (I know far more about the Superman data than I do the Flash data) shouldn't have kids (his biological son Jon and now the adopted twins), be married, or even have a stable social support group/family beyond maybe Ma and Pa Kent but those arguments have proven hollow. Superman comic book sales are doing the highest numbers they have in at least a decade.

[Digifiend]

At least a decade? In other words, since Clark's marriage was erased in New 52? Only took them four years to bring it back - and of course it was when they did that he became a Dad.

[Garlador]

At least a decade? In other words, since Clark's marriage was erased in New 52? Only took them four years to bring it back - and of course it was when they did that he became a Dad.

Wally is my "DC's Peter" more often than not due to how similar their crap is (writers against his marriage, devil takes their love, wife suffers "miscarriage", made a pariah in the hero community, etc.).

Wally and everything he had earned was effectively wiped clean in 2011 with the New 52. He only got his marriage and kids restored in 2020 with Flash Forward #6, and even then Wally didn't get home to them until a year later. That was an agonizing 10 years for fans of their relationship, and it was clear the editors at DC fought against it tooth and nail until fresh blood took over.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/c...g?format=1000w
https://i.redd.it/smodv7w1puh41.jpg

OMD has certainly lasted longer at this point, but Peter and MJ have also bounced back and forth into a relationship since then multiple times. Wally and Linda had nothing. If Wally can rebound and get the happiness he deserves, I truly believe any hero at rock bottom can.

[Xenon]

Wally is my "DC's Peter" more often than not due to how similar their crap is (writers against his marriage, devil takes their love, wife suffers "miscarriage", made a pariah in the hero community, etc.).

Wally and everything he had earned was effectively wiped clean in 2011 with the New 52. He only got his marriage and kids restored in 2020 with Flash Forward #6, and even then Wally didn't get home to them until a year later. That was an agonizing 10 years for fans of their relationship, and it was clear the editors at DC fought against it tooth and nail until fresh blood took over.

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/c...g?format=1000w
https://i.redd.it/smodv7w1puh41.jpg

OMD has certainly lasted longer at this point, but Peter and MJ have also bounced back and forth into a relationship since then multiple times. Wally and Linda had nothing. If Wally can rebound and get the happiness he deserves, I truly believe any hero at rock bottom can.

Only actually once.

MJ was out of the book for a while during BND, then Slott started teasing the idea they would get back together near the end of Big Time, of course, he "got them together", but only so Otto could break them up, and they're never "together" on page before Otto takes over (in fact 698 implies Otto is the one to get them together). That doesn't count. Spencer getting them together in 2019 was the first time in 12 years, and it stuck for his whole three year run, but honestly that makes it worse that Wells broke them up again, especially when done so poorly.

[marvelprince]

I couldn't agree with you more. Both Superman and the Flash comics are the best they've been in years since adding the family elements, IMHO. Sure, you have those who say Superman (I know far more about the Superman data than I do the Flash data) shouldn't have kids (his biological son Jon and now the adopted twins), be married, or even have a stable social support group/family beyond maybe Ma and Pa Kent but those arguments have proven hollow. Superman comic book sales are doing the highest numbers they have in at least a decade.

The problem is that DC corrected previous sales disasters by doing stuff like this that was
Positively received. Sales on Amazing have been going up during this time, so why would Marvel feel the need to course correct? And personally, I don’t think those approaches are the one to take with Spider-Man and Marvel likely feels the same. Spider-Man more so than Batman and Superman have always been older, so advancing their stories with kids isn’t a big deal for them age wise. With SpiderMan and them wanting to keep him pegged at that right out of school age having him settle down and advancing his life moves counter to that.

[marvelprince]

The book isn't even out yet, so of course it won't be talked about on mainstream TV. Mainstream online pundits are already talking about it, though. And it's way worse than Sins Past.

I don't think you understand. They fridged Kamala Khan of all people - most successful new Marvel hero of the 21st century after Miles Morales, first brown/Muslim Marvel female hero who made the White House within 2 years of debuting, and who is already big enough have her own Disney+ show, be a co-protagonist with Brie Larson and be a main Avenger in the 2020 game - they fridged her in the most callous way possible and for shock value in another hero's book that she barely appeared in. And to make Peter "sad". And it happened in 2023, not 1993 or even 2003. And during AAPI month.

This is really bad. There is no sugarcoating how bad this is. It's remarkably tone-deaf. It's "could lose your job" bad. (And no, Kamala coming back doesn't change all this.)

Respectfully, this is still nothing. I’m online, and here is really the only place I see people talking about it. Most people have the good sense to know that they’re not actually fridging Kamala, and even the ones mad don’t reach near the levels of past controversies. You see a post, some outrage and then people move on. When Cap said Hail Hydra that was like a bomb online. People who hadn’t read comics since they were kids were freaking out. When they killed Peter Parker before Superior grown adults were actually crying. When Peter revealed his identity that created a larger discussion.

I think you’re reacting and what others to react like this Goliaths death in Civil War. Just another minority character put in the ground for shock value to highlight another characters story. But the planned specials and events and the little thing of her going to be appearing in a major movie tells me (and most of us) that Marvel has plans for the character. Really I’m surprised more people aren’t seeing that this is their opportunity to bring her back with changed powers to match her MCU counterpart. The fact that they’re doing this is in their biggest book just means they want to as much readers as possible to know about this.

And again, I really don’t want to get to the point where we don’t let characters experience the same tropes of the books like death/resurrection/retcons/etc because they are a minority. I hated the Sam’s run as Captain America started out with him being inverted with the rest of the heroes, but just cause I love that character leaving them out of story that all the others are experiencing is just as bad. Everything should be for the sake of the story.

[wleakr]

Only actually once.

MJ was out of the book for a while during BND, then Slott started teasing the idea they would get back together near the end of Big Time, of course, he "got them together", but only so Otto could break them up, and they're never "together" on page before Otto takes over (in fact 698 implies Otto is the one to get them together). That doesn't count. Spencer getting them together in 2019 was the first time in 12 years, and it stuck for his whole three year run, but honestly that makes it worse that Wells broke them up again, especially when done so poorly.

I honestly don't remember any "together" moments during Spencers run.

I vaguely remember an issue with a ring involved, but that ultimately went nowhere. Spencer kept Spider-man hopping from one disaster to the next until his run was done, so I never really viewed them as really being "together".

[Tendrin]

And again, I really don’t want to get to the point where we don’t let characters experience the same tropes of the books like death/resurrection/retcons/etc because they are a minority. I hated the Sam’s run as Captain America started out with him being inverted with the rest of the heroes, but just cause I love that character leaving them out of story that all the others are experiencing is just as bad. Everything should be for the sake of the story.

It's very annoying that when minorities are getting to share in the tropes, suddenly we're told that those tropes are bad, that they must be subverted or avoided, and that they're silly for even wanting to participate them in the first place.

[Xenon]

I honestly don't remember any "together" moments during Spencers run.

I vaguely remember an issue with a ring involved, but that ultimately went nowhere. Spencer kept Spider-man hopping from one disaster to the next until his run was done, so I never really viewed them as really being "together".

You're kinda right. There are a few scenes of them together but MJ was written out of the book for over a year IIRC due to her own ongoing, and there was of course plenty of Spider-man stuff for him to do. And since they didn't live together, she wouldn't naturally appear when he's at home and times like that.

[Kevinroc]

It's very annoying that when minorities are getting to share in the tropes, suddenly we're told that those tropes are bad, that they must be subverted or avoided, and that they're silly for even wanting to participate them in the first place.

If this were happening in a Ms. Marvel series or even a generic universe-wide crossover event, that would be one thing. But it's happening in the pages of Amazing Spider-Man. This isn't Kamala's story. This wasn't even advertised as Kamala's story. But now she's going to be a brown body for a white man who barely knows her to grieve over.

It's gross as hell.

The fact that she's going to come back sooner rather than later doesn't change this.

[Johnny]

The problem is that DC corrected previous sales disasters by doing stuff like this that was
Positively received. Sales on Amazing have been going up during this time, so why would Marvel feel the need to course correct? And personally, I don’t think those approaches are the one to take with Spider-Man and Marvel likely feels the same. Spider-Man more so than Batman and Superman have always been older, so advancing their stories with kids isn’t a big deal for them age wise. With SpiderMan and them wanting to keep him pegged at that right out of school age having him settle down and advancing his life moves counter to that.

The Flash was not a sales disaster, it sold better under Joshua Williamson than it did under Jeremy Adams, despite the latter brought back Wally, his marriage and kids with Linda and even gave him another kid. It was critically acclaimed and still didn't do as well as it did before. Superman's New 52 era was bad in general and the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship didn't fly. Giving him his marriage back as well as a son didn't make it a best-seller. Batman on the other hand was hurt by the non-wedding that's still felt to date. Either way those decisions are not made only based on sales, sometimes writers and editors can see if something isn't good for the characters whether it sells or not. I keep going back to this again and people keep ignoring it, the Clone Saga is the best example of a run that sold despite being a trainwreck. Even the finale of the 90s animated series mocked it. Just because something sells doesn't mean it's a good direction or leaves the franchise in a healthy place. And I'm not talking about "course correcting", I'm aware they will never give Peter a family, I'm talking about runs that sell and still end up badly damaging the characters in the process.

[Steven Caldwell]

If this character was not a diversity character, no one would even care she had died.
12 people on Twitter are mad.
Most people stopped reading the book a while ago.
That being said, the story stinks.

[marvelprince]

The Flash was not a sales disaster, it sold better under Joshua Williamson than it did under Jeremy Adams, despite the latter brought back Wally, his marriage and kids with Linda and even gave him another kid. It was critically acclaimed and still didn't do as well as it did before. Superman's New 52 era was bad in general and the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship didn't fly. Giving him his marriage back as well as a son didn't make it a best-seller. Batman on the other hand was hurt by the non-wedding that's still felt to date. Either way those decisions are not made only based on sales, sometimes writers and editors can see if something isn't good for the characters whether it sells or not. I keep going back to this again and people keep ignoring it, the Clone Saga is the best example of a run that sold despite being a trainwreck. Even the finale of the 90s animated series mocked it. Just because something sells doesn't mean it's a good direction or leaves the franchise in a healthy place. And I'm not talking about "course correcting", I'm aware they will never give Peter a family, I'm talking about runs that sell and still end up badly damaging the characters in the process.

The point is they were reestablishing from poorly received status quos for the characters. Superman needed a shake up and giving him a son and emphasizing him as a father helped sales. Flash is different case cause it was Barry’s book, but the poor status quo was Wally in limbo so they brought him back with his family. Spider-Man is never going to become a dad in the mainline books, it just Aint happening and the sales are going up so why would they need to change anything? I saw someone mention the Clone Saga using that as why sales shouldn’t equate to quality. Again as someone who was around then I think something to understand is that when Clone Saga launched it actually wasn’t terrible. It had a solid hook that had you invested in Peters story and lots of people were onboard initially. The problem is they didn’t know how to end it and they stretched it so long that nothing made sense.

[Kevinroc]

The point is they were reestablishing from poorly received status quos for the characters. Superman needed a shake up and giving him a son and emphasizing him as a father helped sales. Flash is different case cause it was Barry’s book, but the poor status quo was Wally in limbo so they brought him back with his family. Spider-Man is never going to become a dad in the mainline books, it just Aint happening and the sales are going up so why would they need to change anything? I saw someone mention the Clone Saga using that as why sales shouldn’t equate to quality. Again as someone who was around then I think something to understand is that when Clone Saga launched it actually wasn’t terrible. It had a solid hook that had you invested in Peters story and lots of people were onboard initially. The problem is they didn’t know how to end it and they stretched it so long that nothing made sense.

And ASM is in a terrible status quo again.

[Garlador]

If this character was not a diversity character, no one would even care she had died.
12 people on Twitter are mad.
Most people stopped reading the book a while ago.
That being said, the story stinks.

I’ve seen this story reported on NBC, MSN, Yahoo News… it’s not 12 irate fans on Twitter.

You’re partially right; if this wasn’t the most prominent Muslim superhero in western comics, the most popular Pakistani-American girl in fiction, the biggest break-out young hero for Marvel in ten year… yes, we’d ignore it. Heroes die and come back every month.

But how they did it and the outdated tropes a bunch of white guys used to fridge a brown Muslim girl in some other guy’s comic so a white hero she barely knows can be (even more) sad, on the anniversary of the LAST time they fridged a girl to boost Spider-Man comics, during AAPI heritage month… is shockingly, bafflingly, offensively tone-deaf.

Good Lord.