Who agrees? Carol back as Ms. Marvel and Kamala with new original title

[Panic]

Actually iirc DC didn’t win, the court decided against DC, DC went for a second trial on slightly different grounds, Fawcett decided it wasn’t worth it and settled out of court.

[Ascended]

Not quite right. Fawcett didn't completely go under, but did stop publishing comics (they still did other magazines)

Actually iirc DC didn’t win, the court decided against DC, DC went for a second trial on slightly different grounds, Fawcett decided it wasn’t worth it and settled out of court.

Ah, thanks for the corrections. Like I said, it's a twisty tale and it's been a long time since I read about it. If all I got wrong was Fawcett losing the trial, then my memory is better than I thought.

Was the limbs-fall-off Captain Marvel a robot? I don't know if I knew that. I knew there was a limbs-fall-off CM but didn't know it was a robot. Weird.

Think there was at least one, maybe two other attempts to use the name too, before Stan got it?

[Dipter]

Agreed. I think Genis has a better claim in terms of internal logic, but Carol's pulled down millions. I imagine she earned Marvel more in one weekend than Genis earned the company in his entire career.

Money is quite a cynical unit of measurement, I don't view it as an accurate reflection of how much people like Carol, but rather how much they like the Marvel brand. Her film made a billion because it rode off the massive hype wave of Infinity War. Enthusiasm for Marvel movies was at an all-time high, and Carol was teased in the post-credits scene, which tricked audiences into believing her film was mandatory viewing before Endgame. It was a lie though, just a shady marketing trick, and her appearance in Endgame was a glorified cameo, so its financial success can't be attributed to her. Theoretically, if the MCU had put Mar-Vell in her place and used the same tactics, he would have been equally successful.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Money is quite a cynical unit of measurement, I don't view it as an accurate representation of how much people like Carol, but rather how much they like the Marvel brand. Her film made a billion because it rode off the massive hype wave of Infinity War. Enthusiasm for Marvel movies was at an all-time high, and Carol was teased in the post-credits scene, which tricked audiences into believing her film was mandatory viewing before Endgame. It was a lie though, just a shady marketing trick, and her appearance in Endgame was a glorified cameo, so its financial success can't be attributed to her. Theoretically, if the MCU had put Mar-Vell in her place and used the same tactics, he would have been equally successful.

Money is the only reason any of these characters were created, at all. And yes, Carol did benefit from the shared universe, but so has virtually every movie in the shared universe. And a shared canon is what Marvel comics is based around, and every character benefits from.

[Dipter]

Money is the only reason any of these characters were created, at all. And yes, Carol did benefit from the shared universe, but so has virtually every movie in the shared universe. And a shared canon is what Marvel comics is based around, and every character benefits from.

Money is the motivation behind creating these characters, yes, but they only make money if readers become attached and find them interesting enough to continue buying issues. The MCU has unfortunately created an environment where compelling and well-written characters aren't important as long as that recognizable logo is slapped on the poster. Characters benefit from the shared universe in comics, but the films have used their shared universe as a crutch to prop up some bland and uninspired stories that wouldn't stand on their own otherwise.

[ed2962]

There's an amusing scene in the Avengers/JLA crossover where everyone who was ever a member of both teams show up for the final battle. Someone says, "Thanks Capt Marvel!" And Monica and Billy are both on panel and say, "You're welcome!" at the same time.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Money is the motivation behind creating these characters, yes, but they only make money if readers become attached and find them interesting enough to continue buying issues. The MCU has unfortunately created an environment where compelling and well-written characters aren't important as long as that recognizable logo is slapped on the poster. Characters benefit from the shared universe in comics, but the films have used their shared universe as a crutch to prop up some bland and uninspired stories that wouldn't stand on their own otherwise.

The MCU wasn't built out of thin air with the wave of a wand. It was built with good actors and good stories

[Shadowedeyes]

Money is quite a cynical unit of measurement, I don't view it as an accurate reflection of how much people like Carol, but rather how much they like the Marvel brand. Her film made a billion because it rode off the massive hype wave of Infinity War. Enthusiasm for Marvel movies was at an all-time high, and Carol was teased in the post-credits scene, which tricked audiences into believing her film was mandatory viewing before Endgame. It was a lie though, just a shady marketing trick, and her appearance in Endgame was a glorified cameo, so its financial success can't be attributed to her. Theoretically, if the MCU had put Mar-Vell in her place and used the same tactics, he would have been equally successful.

Maybe, but I think it's equally not accurate to not consider that in addition to the connection to endgame, there was a lot of hype and attention given to the fact that it was also the MCU's first female led solo film. That is something that Mar-Vell would not have gotten, so I would be hesitant to think that it didn't play any role whatsoever and the Mar-Vell would have pulled the same numbers.

[skyvolt2000]

The MCU wasn't built out of thin air with the wave of a wand. It was built with good actors and good stories

And lets not forget before that movie-Carol had a run as Cap Marvel that well received. Kelly Sue DeConnick's run stayed among the top trade sellers on Amazon before that movie came out. Folks want to forget about that.

And what comic book was being made for Antman? This successful comic that helped spawn 3 movies. Oh wait there wasn't a comic. It took more than a shared universe for Antman to sniff 3 movies while Wonder Woman can't.

That shared universe got us Eternals, Shang Chi, Blade (eventually) and others. Nobody cares about them being in a shared universe. They got made.

Still in better shape than DC. At least nobody at Marvel was hoping for failure of movies like we see at DC with Black Adam, Shazam, Blue Beetle and Aquaman 2. DC should have slaughtered Marvel.

[The Cool Thatguy]

And lets not forget before that movie-Carol had a run as Cap Marvel that well received. Kelly Sue DeConnick's run stayed among the top trade sellers on Amazon before that movie came out. Folks want to forget about that.

And what comic book was being made for Antman? This successful comic that helped spawn 3 movies. Oh wait there wasn't a comic. It took more than a shared universe for Antman to sniff 3 movies while Wonder Woman can't.

That shared universe got us Eternals, Shang Chi, Blade (eventually) and others. Nobody cares about them being in a shared universe. They got made.

Still in better shape than DC. At least nobody at Marvel was hoping for failure of movies like we see at DC with Black Adam, Shazam, Blue Beetle and Aquaman 2. DC should have slaughtered Marvel.

In Scott's defense, the poor bastard was being written by Nick Spencer.

NICK.

SPENCER.

[Dipter]

The MCU wasn't built out of thin air with the wave of a wand. It was built with good actors and good stories

I agree with you there. It started off strong, but they used the immense success of those early films as an excuse to try less. They've fully committed to a quantity over quality business model now, resulting in worse visual effects, boring camera work, and forgettable writing. And as long as they keep making consistent money, they'll never be motivated to change and improve, which is why its strange whenever fans point to box office earnings as proof that the MCU is still "good", as if the creative side of filmmaking doesn't matter at all.

[Digifiend]

Yeah, the MCU was consistently good up to Avengers Endgame. It's been hit and miss since.

[Ascended]

Yeah, the MCU was consistently good up to Avengers Endgame. It's been hit and miss since.

That's not true. Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2 and 3, Thor 2, GotG2, all of them were considered questionable-to-bad films. They all made a profit and have fans, I don't think Marvel has had a straight up flop yet (maybe Eternals?), but there were always movies that weren't great, that had people saying "the MCU is dead now!!!"

There have *always* been clunkers in the mix. Of the first three MCU movies, two of them are considered among the worst. And that's not to discount the unparalleled success the MCU has seen, what it's done is unprecedented and impressive beyond words. But let's not pretend that they only started making shaky movies after Endgame. The only difference is, we're not giving them a free pass anymore.

And I find the claim that Carol's film would have been just as successful if it had had Mar-Vell to be rather....not at all accurate. You gotta ignore a whole lot of stuff to make that claim. It's true that Carol struggled in the LCS when she became Captain, but everywhere else (except fox news I suppose) the move was celebrated and became a huge deal. Did Marv stay on the top of the trade charts month after month? Did he have legions of fans invading conventions dressed as him? Was he getting larger media attention and pushed as a poster child for a social movement? No. Carol did. She got all that and more when she became Captain.

I don't think any of us liked the forced, artificial push that Carol got. Marvel didn't try to make her A-list because of fan demand, but because they decided she was their best shot at having a high-profile female lead. And a lot of folks resented that, understandably. But despite some people not liking it, Carol becoming Captain was a huge moment that captured lightning in a bottle and became indicative of something bigger in the socio-cultural mix. This is what kicked off the diversity push of the 2010's, which led to, among other things, Kamala. Can't really denounce the importance all this carried or the impact it had, and the fact that Carol was the first female-led MCU film certainly didn't hurt her box office either.

[9th.]

I don't know how we got here because this is a completely different conversation but people are letting the insane run that was Phase 3 cloud their judgement. The MCU definitely had some misses prior to Endgame, i'm tired of people acting Phase 4 is the first time Marvel has had a miss. Not everything Marvel was pumping out back then was gold.

[Dipter]

I don't know how we got here because this is a completely different conversation but people are letting the insane run that was Phase 3 cloud their judgement. The MCU definitely had some misses prior to Endgame, i'm tired of people acting Phase 4 is the first time Marvel has had a miss. Not everything Marvel was pumping out back then was gold.

Well that's certainly not my opinion. Out of the 31 films produced, I'd only describe a handful as actually decent. I think the majority of Avengers: Endgame is a mess. But to the credit of Iron Man 2 or Thor, which were considered Marvel's weakest at the time, they at least still felt and looked like real films. They had solid cinematography, lighting, believable vfx. The MCU has been a mixed bag from the beginning, but I think that, with a few exceptions, the movies have continued to devolve over the years and have reached a new low.

To loop it back in with Captain Marvel, an empowering superheroine solo film is a concept I'm onboard with, it just sucks that they couldn't make it a good movie as well. You pick any Captain Marvel comic off the shelf, and the stuff Carol's doing in there will be 5x more entertaining than anything in the movie. The MCU plays it safe and does the bare minimum necessary to make money, doesn't feel like they care about anything else.