Who agrees? Carol back as Ms. Marvel and Kamala with new original title

[The Cool Thatguy]

Really don't get the hate some people have for Carol using Captain. The girl earned it, has the strongest claim to it, and the only time Mar-Vell actually mattered was when he died....before many of us were born.

Captain Marvel is Carol Danvers. Not Mar-Vell, not Monica, not Billy Batson. I don't foresee us going backwards, and we shouldn't.

Honestly, that depends on the metric being used.

Because to be fair, Billy Batson was first.

In terms of pathos, the name compliments Genis far more than it does Carol.

But in terms of money made, Carol takes the cake effortlessly.

Not saying that Carol needs to change her name, mind, but saying she has the strongest claim depends on what metric is being used.

[ARkadelphia]

Really don't get the hate some people have for Carol using Captain. The girl earned it, has the strongest claim to it, and the only time Mar-Vell actually mattered was when he died....before many of us were born.

Captain Marvel is Carol Danvers. Not Mar-Vell, not Monica, not Billy Batson. I don't foresee us going backwards, and we shouldn't.

Oh, for silly names:

Professor Marvel.

Marvel Red.

Marvel X.

Executive Marvel.

Ensign Marvel.

Kid Marvel Jr.

Immortal Marvel

[marhawkman]

Really don't get the hate some people have for Carol using Captain. The girl earned it, has the strongest claim to it, and the only time Mar-Vell actually mattered was when he died....before many of us were born.

Is it hate or just mild dislike? Yeah, saying "I don't like it. " isn't the same as hating it...

I don't like Carol as "Captain Marvel"... she used to have her own identity... I see it as a deterioration of the comic book genre.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Is it hate or just mild dislike? Yeah, saying "I don't like it. " isn't the same as hating it...

I don't like Carol as "Captain Marvel"... she used to have her own identity... I see it as a deterioration of the comic book genre.

Agreed. I think Genis has a better claim in terms of internal logic, but Carol's pulled down millions. I imagine she earned Marvel more in one weekend than Genis earned the company in his entire career.

[Panic]

Really don't get the hate some people have for Carol using Captain. The girl earned it, has the strongest claim to it, and the only time Mar-Vell actually mattered was when he died....before many of us were born.

I’ve stayed out of this stupid debate, but you really are being a **** here.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I'm happy pretending that CW2 never happened, personally

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

Back in the CW2 era, I liked the idea of Kamala dropping the name Ms. Marvel as a rebellion to Carol's current outlook. But outside of that specific era, I don't think there is a good reason to change it yet.

I'd prefer Carol as Binary or Warbird rather than Ms or Captain Marvel. So in a potential reboot I'd lean towards that.

Even if you bring back Mar-vell, they'd just share the mantle like Steve and Sam currently do.

[Digifiend]

Yeah, what's the problem with shared codenames? It's very common nowadays, here's a no-doubt-incomplete list:
Captain America (Steve and Sam), Wasp (Janet and Nadia), Valkyrie (Jane and Runa), Hawkeye (Clint and Kate), Aero (one from the New Agents of Atlas, the other an X-Men teen, Cannonball and Husk's sister), Nova (Rich and Sam), Spider-Man (Peter and Miles), Iron Fist (Danny Rand and Lin Lie, formerly Sword Master)...

and at DC:
Superman (Clark and Jon), Wonder Girl (Cassie and Yara), Robin (Tim and Damian), Green Lantern (eight characters at least), Flash (four characters), Green Arrow (Oliver and Connor), Huntress (Helena Wayne and Helena Bertinelli), Batman (Bruce and Jace), Batgirl (Barbara, Cass, and Steph), Wildcat (Ted and Yolanda), Doctor Mid-Nite (Pieter and Beth)...

Note that from that entire list only Huntress can't be disambiguated by real first name, given that they're both Helena. Also, one of the Flashes has the exact same real name as his cousin, Kid Flash, though both are known by nicknames.

[Ascended]

Honestly, that depends on the metric being used.

That's true. By rights, the name should be Billy's, as it was his originally, but that hasn't been the case since the....70's? I think he's been without it longer than he had it. And while he may have the best claim to the name spiritually, legally it's a whole mess that everyone is better off getting away from. I think it was a mistake on DC's part to try to keep the name attached to him when they didn't have the rights; its just compounded a problem and now their main competition has made CM a billion $$$ household name....which does DC no favors.

Genis....in-universe, he *might* have a claim to it. But Carol was using the "Marvel" moniker long before he came around. And 'Captain Marvel' isn't exactly a family name, it's a superhero codename created by a coincidence of language. But I do agree, his hat belongs in the ring.

I don't like Carol as "Captain Marvel"... she used to have her own identity... I see it as a deterioration of the comic book genre.

If she hadn't been a Marvel legacy/derivative in the first place, I'd agree. Had Carol been Warbird (or something) from the start, then I wouldn't like her going by Captain Marvel and would consider it a regression, same as I'd be bothered by DC's Cyborg wearing a red cape and changing his name to Super-Robot-Guy. But since Carol was a Marvel, spinning off Mar-Vell from the start of her heroic career (and the first to do so, I believe), I see it more as a promotion.

I’ve stayed out of this stupid debate, but you really are being a **** here.

Little bit yeah. And I do apologize for that. But this debate....it's a thing. I know Marv has some fans, and I mean no disrespect to them, but he wasn't exactly successful when he was alive, he's been dead for decades, Carol's made more bank with the name than all the rest combined (possibly including Billy) and there's zero reason for Marvel to bring Marv back for it. We all have our favorites that have fallen into limbo, so I feel for Vell's fans, but seriously, there's nothing to be gained from him taking the name back. And Carol going back to "Ms." Marvel seems....insulting. It was a feminist term when Carol first took it, but going from 'Captain' to 'Ms.' sounds like a discharge, not a return to form or anything at all positive. And 'Ms' hasn't been a war cry of feminism for a long, long time so there's no even a social/cultural benefit to it. It's just a woman being stripped of her rank for some dude almost nobody remembers, and even fewer people care about.

Yeah, what's the problem with shared codenames?

Not a lot, (though I don't care much for it, for various reasons) but the thread is about Carol losing the name, not sharing it.

[The Cool Thatguy]

That's true. By rights, the name should be Billy's, as it was his originally, but that hasn't been the case since the....70's? I think he's been without it longer than he had it. And while he may have the best claim to the name spiritually, legally it's a whole mess that everyone is better off getting away from. I think it was a mistake on DC's part to try to keep the name attached to him when they didn't have the rights; its just compounded a problem and now their main competition has made CM a billion $$$ household name....which does DC no favors.

How did Billy lose the name Captain Marvel, anyways?

I always thought that Marvel had the right since it was their name and all

Genis....in-universe, he *might* have a claim to it. But Carol was using the "Marvel" moniker long before he came around. And 'Captain Marvel' isn't exactly a family name, it's a superhero codename created by a coincidence of language. But I do agree, his hat belongs in the ring.

Well, Mar-Vell is his dad, and one could argue that he's still better remembered in space than on earth. Plus, though it's been long ignored, they did establish that Carol lost her emotional attachments to Mar-Vell after Rogue's mindwipe.

So in terms of character, it compliments him best.

In terms of money made...there's no contest.

[Ascended]

How did Billy lose the name Captain Marvel, anyways?

I always thought that Marvel had the right since it was their name and all

It's a weird and twisty tale, and I don't trust myself to get it entirely right. But if memory serves it goes like this. Billy was first published by a company called Fawcett, back in the early 40's. DC sued them for copyright infringement (Billy being too much like Superman), and won. Not long after that Fawcett went under. I think the legal fees from fighting with DC broke them but I might be wrong. For years, Billy and the other characters Fawcett had owned floated through copyright limbo. The "Captain Marvel" name/trademark was bought and sold a few times, separate from the character. Eventually Marvel Comics had the chance to buy the 'Captain Marvel' name in the....60's, I guess? Which, obviously, they did. I'm pretty sure Mar-Vell was created simply because Stan got ahold of the name and needed to attach it to someone. Then somewhere in the 70's, I think, DC bought the rights to Fawcett's characters, but of course the 'Captain' name was already long gone and no longer connected (legally speaking) to Billy. Due to the way trademarks work, DC could still call Billy "Captain Marvel" inside the story, but not in any marketing, like on covers or movie/tv titles. They used the "Shazam!" name for the title/s while still calling him Captain in the story until 2012 or so, when they finally stopped fighting reality and changed Billy's hero name to Shazam.

Once Stan had the name, along came Mar-Vell, who went through a handful of big revamps and reimagining and relaunches as Marvel tried to make the most of the name they bought. And it seems that despite playing a big role in a handful of classic stories like the Kree-Skrull War, and tussling with Thanos a few times, Marv didn't click with readers (at least for long). So they killed him off in the....early 80's? From there history kinda repeated itself, but within Marvel Comics, as the name was passed around again in an attempt to build it up as a brand. Some of the new Captains had ties to Mar-Vell, like Genis, some didn't, like Monica, but none of them were able to build up the franchise or sustain a solo (Monica never even got the chance, I don't think). Finally somewhere around 2010 or 2012, Carol took the name. She was Marv's first legacy with a long and storied history, and already a solid B-lister known as a semi-regular Avenger and friend to the X-Men.

[marhawkman]

Yeah, what's the problem with shared codenames? It's very common nowadays, here's a no-doubt-incomplete list:
Captain America (Steve and Sam), Wasp (Janet and Nadia), Valkyrie (Jane and Runa), Hawkeye (Clint and Kate), Aero (one from the New Agents of Atlas, the other an X-Men teen, Cannonball and Husk's sister), Nova (Rich and Sam), Spider-Man (Peter and Miles), Iron Fist (Danny Rand and Lin Lie, formerly Sword Master)...

and at DC:
Superman (Clark and Jon), Wonder Girl (Cassie and Yara), Robin (Tim and Damian), Green Lantern (eight characters at least), Flash (four characters), Green Arrow (Oliver and Connor), Huntress (Helena Wayne and Helena Bertinelli), Batman (Bruce and Jace), Batgirl (Barbara, Cass, and Steph), Wildcat (Ted and Yolanda), Doctor Mid-Nite (Pieter and Beth)...

Note that from that entire list only Huntress can't be disambiguated by real first name, given that they're both Helena. Also, one of the Flashes has the exact same real name as his cousin, Kid Flash, though both are known by nicknames.

In some version Paula Brooks/Nguyen used Huntress, but not current gen I guess.

[Geraldofrivia]

I am all for it. Carol will always be Ms Marvel plus this is probably to reboot her brand and start fresh. Plus both of them can share title if Kamala is back or Kamala could get a new Original name

[Geraldofrivia]

Immortal Marvel

Marvel Prime

Marvel Alpha

Marvel Uno

Marvel Woman

Agent Marvel

Colonel Marvel

Major Marvel

Marvella

Captain Sparkles

[Digifiend]

In some version Paula Brooks/Nguyen used Huntress, but not current gen I guess.

Yeah, she was Huntress in the golden age, but once Helena Wayne was introduced in the 70s, she was retconned as being Tigress, the name now used by her daughter, Artemis Crock.

It's a weird and twisty tale, and I don't trust myself to get it entirely right. But if memory serves it goes like this. Billy was first published by a company called Fawcett, back in the early 40's. DC sued them for copyright infringement (Billy being too much like Superman), and won. Not long after that Fawcett went under. I think the legal fees from fighting with DC broke them but I might be wrong. For years, Billy and the other characters Fawcett had owned floated through copyright limbo. The "Captain Marvel" name/trademark was bought and sold a few times, separate from the character. Eventually Marvel Comics had the chance to buy the 'Captain Marvel' name in the....60's, I guess? Which, obviously, they did. I'm pretty sure Mar-Vell was created simply because Stan got ahold of the name and needed to attach it to someone. Then somewhere in the 70's, I think, DC bought the rights to Fawcett's characters, but of course the 'Captain' name was already long gone and no longer connected (legally speaking) to Billy. Due to the way trademarks work, DC could still call Billy "Captain Marvel" inside the story, but not in any marketing, like on covers or movie/tv titles. They used the "Shazam!" name for the title/s while still calling him Captain in the story until 2012 or so, when they finally stopped fighting reality and changed Billy's hero name to Shazam.

Once Stan had the name, along came Mar-Vell, who went through a handful of big revamps and reimagining and relaunches as Marvel tried to make the most of the name they bought. And it seems that despite playing a big role in a handful of classic stories like the Kree-Skrull War, and tussling with Thanos a few times, Marv didn't click with readers (at least for long). So they killed him off in the....early 80's? From there history kinda repeated itself, but within Marvel Comics, as the name was passed around again in an attempt to build it up as a brand. Some of the new Captains had ties to Mar-Vell, like Genis, some didn't, like Monica, but none of them were able to build up the franchise or sustain a solo (Monica never even got the chance, I don't think). Finally somewhere around 2010 or 2012, Carol took the name. She was Marv's first legacy with a long and storied history, and already a solid B-lister known as a semi-regular Avenger and friend to the X-Men.

Not quite right. Fawcett didn't completely go under, but did stop publishing comics (they still did other magazines) and stopped renewing their trademarks. That freed up Captain Marvel when it lapsed. Another publisher grabbed it first (a robot hero who would SPLIT! his limbs) but Marvel paid them off after creating Mar-Vell in 1968. In 1971, DC licenced Billy from Fawcett, but had to call the comic Shazam! instead of Captain Marvel. The character was still called Captain Marvel until 2011 though. His codename became Shazam when he was reintroduced in the New 52. DC bought Fawcett's comic characters outright in the 80s, shortly before they did go out of business.