Who agrees? Carol back as Ms. Marvel and Kamala with new original title

[ed2962]

That's not true. Incredible Hulk, Iron Man 2 and 3, Thor 2, GotG2, all of them were considered questionable-to-bad films. They all made a profit and have fans, I don't think Marvel has had a straight up flop yet (maybe Eternals?), but there were always movies that weren't great, that had people saying "the MCU is dead now!!!"

There have *always* been clunkers in the mix. Of the first three MCU movies, two of them are considered among the worst. And that's not to discount the unparalleled success the MCU has seen, what it's done is unprecedented and impressive beyond words. But let's not pretend that they only started making shaky movies after Endgame. The only difference is, we're not giving them a free pass anymore.

And I find the claim that Carol's film would have been just as successful if it had had Mar-Vell to be rather....not at all accurate. You gotta ignore a whole lot of stuff to make that claim. It's true that Carol struggled in the LCS when she became Captain, but everywhere else (except fox news I suppose) the move was celebrated and became a huge deal. Did Marv stay on the top of the trade charts month after month? Did he have legions of fans invading conventions dressed as him? Was he getting larger media attention and pushed as a poster child for a social movement? No. Carol did. She got all that and more when she became Captain.

I don't think any of us liked the forced, artificial push that Carol got. Marvel didn't try to make her A-list because of fan demand, but because they decided she was their best shot at having a high-profile female lead. And a lot of folks resented that, understandably. But despite some people not liking it, Carol becoming Captain was a huge moment that captured lightning in a bottle and became indicative of something bigger in the socio-cultural mix. This is what kicked off the diversity push of the 2010's, which led to, among other things, Kamala. Can't really denounce the importance all this carried or the impact it had, and the fact that Carol was the first female-led MCU film certainly didn't hurt her box office either.

Everyone forgets about the live action Inhumans...

[skyvolt2000]

I don't know how we got here because this is a completely different conversation but people are letting the insane run that was Phase 3 cloud their judgement. The MCU definitely had some misses prior to Endgame, i'm tired of people acting Phase 4 is the first time Marvel has had a miss. Not everything Marvel was pumping out back then was gold.

That is because you got folks wanting Marvel to DUMP everyone and toss out X-Men films and screw explaining where they were before Phase 1-3.

That is not how it works.

A Mar Vell Cap Marvel movie does not get a 10th of the attention Carol Danvers nor T'Challa nor Shang Chi got.

Who is going to dress up like him to show up at theaters?
Who is going to pay to take kids to see it?
Who is going to treat that movie like it was the prom or a huge event?

That was just Black Panther.

What is the tag line for Mar Vell???

Antman box office at best. Maybe hirer if Marvel invests in him before a second movie.

[gurkle]

The last couple of years of the MCU pretty much convinced me that they have no idea what to do with women characters, and that (as I mentioned in another thread) Ike Perlmutter got the blame for a problem that has barely changed at all since he was kicked off the movies.

Since I mostly hang out in the Scarlet Witch thread I'm mostly thinking about them turning one of their few long standing, popular heroines into a bloodthirsty villain because they considered her expendable. (If they thought they already had enough non-evil superpowered women, they're nuts, because they clearly have too few.) But then we have giving their top heroine a movie after she's already been killed off, introducing the female Thor to kill her off instantly, draining America Chavez of a personality, and more on topic, taking Captain Marvel out of the title of her sequel.

Captain Marvel was not a great movie, I don't think anyone claims it was, but it would not have made the money it did if it were as divisive as Doctor Strange 2 or Thor 4 were. They played it very safe and it was probably a mistake to not let Carol have a personality for most of the film, but Larson is a good actress and there was plenty of room for her to grow a personality in future installments, the same way people didn't know that much about Wanda or Vision before WandaVision. But at this point that feels like an outlier, and even if they did let Carol grow, they'd just reverse it in her next appearance anyway.

[9th.]

Well that's certainly not my opinion. Out of the 31 films produced, I'd only describe a handful as actually decent. I think the majority of Avengers: Endgame is a mess. But to the credit of Iron Man 2 or Thor, which were considered Marvel's weakest at the time, they at least still felt and looked like real films. They had solid cinematography, lighting, believable vfx. The MCU has been a mixed bag from the beginning, but I think that, with a few exceptions, the movies have continued to devolve over the years and have reached a new low.

To loop it back in with Captain Marvel, an empowering superheroine solo film is a concept I'm onboard with, it just sucks that they couldn't make it a good movie as well. You pick any Captain Marvel comic off the shelf, and the stuff Carol's doing in there will be 5x more entertaining than anything in the movie. The MCU plays it safe and does the bare minimum necessary to make money, doesn't feel like they care about anything else.

I can see your point, the MCU does have a formula that can be seen as a good or a bad thing. I think the most egregious example of that lately has been L&T. With that said I do think Eternals had a unique identity although I thought it was boring, I'd argue MoM does too and Werewolf by Midnight (not a film though).

[Ascended]

Everyone forgets about the live action Inhumans...

I was thinking Marvel Studios. Inhumans was made by, who was it, ABC?

[KurtW95]

A Mar Vell Cap Marvel movie does not get a 10th of the attention Carol Danvers nor T'Challa nor Shang Chi got.

Could've had a Ms. Marvel movie and actually included Mar-Vell in a similar manner to EMH and not kill him off but still have him there to give Carol her origin and be her love interest. I remember people thinking Jude Law was going to be him and that would have made way more sense than Yon-Rogg. Though EMH used Mar-Vell's Ultimate design, the way they handled Carol should 100% have been used as a blueprint to introduce her in the MCU.

And Shang-Chi's character and story were pretty much rewritten from scratch. Not a fan of how they handled him.

[marhawkman]

Could've had a Ms. Marvel movie and actually included Mar-Vell in a similar manner to EMH and not kill him off but still have him there to give Carol her origin and be her love interest. I remember people thinking Jude Law was going to be him and that would have made way more sense than Yon-Rogg. Though EMH used Mar-Vell's Ultimate design, the way they handled Carol should 100% have been used as a blueprint to introduce her in the MCU.

And Shang-Chi's character and story were pretty much rewritten from scratch. Not a fan of how they handled him.

Yeah, Mar-vell doesn't need to die, just.. not hang out on Earth...

[Force de Phenix]

Everyone forgets about the live action Inhumans...

You're comparing a public network tv show made by Iron Fist's show runner (also a flop) to a multi-million dollar movie with an Oscar-winning cast and director and an actual marketing campaign.

[9th.]

You're comparing a public network tv show made by Iron Fist's show runner (also a flop) to a multi-million dollar movie with an Oscar-winning cast and director and an actual marketing campaign.

I'm still mad about Iron Fist

[Agent Z]

And lets not forget before that movie-Carol had a run as Cap Marvel that well received. Kelly Sue DeConnick's run stayed among the top trade sellers on Amazon before that movie came out. Folks want to forget about that.

And what comic book was being made for Antman? This successful comic that helped spawn 3 movies. Oh wait there wasn't a comic. It took more than a shared universe for Antman to sniff 3 movies while Wonder Woman can't.

That shared universe got us Eternals, Shang Chi, Blade (eventually) and others. Nobody cares about them being in a shared universe. They got made.

Still in better shape than DC. At least nobody at Marvel was hoping for failure of movies like we see at DC with Black Adam, Shazam, Blue Beetle and Aquaman 2. DC should have slaughtered Marvel.

The only people hoping for the failures of those movies are petty fans who don't work at the studios. There is "should" about this. DC and Marvel aren't any more deserving of success than the other.

[Agent Z]

In Scott's defense, the poor bastard was being written by Nick Spencer.

NICK.

SPENCER.

Spencer is a good writer. He's not without his flaws and no writer is. But when he's good, he's good.

[Digifiend]

Everyone forgets about the live action Inhumans...

That was a TV show, not a movie though. And before Disney+, Marvel Studios didn't do TV shows.

I was thinking Marvel Studios. Inhumans was made by, who was it, ABC?

Marvel Television, which also made Agents of SHIELD and Agent Carter, which also aired on ABC. It's defunct now, they merged it with Marvel Studios, which led to the cancellation of all of it's shows (which also included the Netflix Defenders shows and some shows for Freeform such as Cloak and Dagger).

[ed2962]

You're comparing a public network tv show made by Iron Fist's show runner (also a flop) to a multi-million dollar movie with an Oscar-winning cast and director and an actual marketing campaign.

The pilot was released to theatres, although I do understand your point.

[ed2962]

That was a TV show, not a movie though. And before Disney+, Marvel Studios didn't do TV shows.
Marvel Television, which also made Agents of SHIELD and Agent Carter, which also aired on ABC. It's defunct now, they merged it with Marvel Studios, which led to the cancellation of all of it's shows (which also included the Netflix Defenders shows and some shows for Freeform such as Cloak and Dagger).

Sure but I brought it up because some people think that Marvel can just put their name on anything and it'll be a hit and that's not always the case. If anything I think the fact that show like Inhumans and Cloak and Dagger prove it seeing as it takes less effort to watch a TV Show vs leaving the house and paying money to see a film in a theatre.

[JudicatorPrime]

A Mar Vell Cap Marvel movie does not get a 10th of the attention Carol Danvers nor T'Challa nor Shang Chi got.

Who is going to dress up like him to show up at theaters?
Who is going to pay to take kids to see it?
Who is going to treat that movie like it was the prom or a huge event?

That was just Black Panther.

Which will always make me wonder "What If Marvel had chosen to keep Monica Rambeau as Captain Marvel?" We'll never know the answer to this, but I suspect Monica would have been an even greater box office draw if the right person was cast to portray her. But oh well.

Getting back to the original thread, as much as I wouldn't mind Carol taking up the title Ms. again (or Binary), I don't think it's in Marvel's best interest for her to, well, regress. Either she keeps the captain title, or you give her a new name altogether. Given the dearth of great franchise character-type names, I doubt that happens. So Captain Marvel it is.