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  1. #1
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    Default What Does Spider-Man Editorial Really Know About "Youth"?

    In light of the “fridging” one of Gen Z’s favorite superheroes, we need ask ourselves: What does Spider-Man Editorial really know about getting new younger readers?

    So I wrote an article!
    https://subatomicviewer.wordpress.co...g-about-youth/

    The major death that was teased in The Amazing Spider-Man #26 by writer Zeb Wells and editor Nick Lowe has been leaked on the internet. To everyone’s surprise, it is not Mary Jane, or her newly-introduced partner Paul, or any of their two children who will end up biting the dust. The character who will end up dying in this month’s second issue of The Amazing Spider-Man is none other than Kamala Khan AKA Ms. Marvel.

    While this “fridging” of a major Marvel female hero seems random and caught the internet off-guard, it has not fooled Spider-Man fans. The source of it can be traced back sixteen years to when the Spider-Man storyline One More Day (OMD) was first published. Every tone-deaf decision that occurred in a Spider-Man comic since OMD can be traced back to an editorial team that is out of touch with what young modern audiences want. Kamala’s upcoming death is no exception.

    THE SUCCESS OF MS. MARVEL

    Ms. Marvel is not just any ordinary new Marvel character. She is one of the most successful new Marvel heroes of the 21st Century along with Miles Morales. Her debut in 2013 was a mainstream hit. She has been called a Spider-Man of the 21st Century by several mainstream pundits and publications [1]. She has been especially successful with Millennials and Gen Z’s, as explained by IGN:

    Characters like Ms. Marvel speak to the drama of young adult life in the 21st Century in a way Spider-Man did in the ’60s and ’70s. She appeals to a newer and fast-growing segment of comic readers. These readers are younger than the stereotypical age 30-40 male reader. They’re less interested in traditional superhero stories.
    (Jesse Schedeen, 2014)

    Kamala was such an instant massive success that her creator, Sana Amarat, gave Barack Obama a personal copy of Ms. Marvel at the White House in March 2016 during Women’s History Month.

    Since then, Kamala went on to become a main character in the 2020 Avengers game, got her own Disney+ series set in the MCU, and will be a co-protagonist in the upcoming MCU film The Marvels.

    In short, anyone in-tune with younger audiences understands the success, appeal and importance of this character. You would therefore expect the older editors and writers at the Spider-Man Office – a group that has bragged for sixteen years how they are more in-tune with the minds of the “youth” than anyone else – to not be flabbergasted by the backlash to her death the way editor Nick Lowe seems to be.

    THE PROBLEM WITH KILLING KAMALA

    Ms. Marvel is undoubtedly coming back. A common rumor is that she will be reintroduced as a mutant (possibly with her MCU powers) prior to the release of The Marvels in November. Indeed, her inevitable revival is probably the reason Lowe and Wells thought this stunt would be acceptable.

    Even though it is temporary, her death in The Amazing Spider-Man #26 is still problematic for several reasons. Here is CBR user Huntsman Spider summarizing the problem better than anyone else:

    “The optics of killing off Kamala Khan/Ms. Marvel are the absolute worst at this time, given the ongoing tensions around greater representation and incorporation in the superhero genre of people and groups that aren’t typically included as main or important characters in mainstream superhero stories. The idea that, in spite of what Kamala represents to a lot of fans and readers who have seen her as an inspirational symbol, she can still be killed off in a book belonging to a more prominent hero with a long-established legacy and pedigree will likely not sit well with a good number of people.”
    (Huntsman Spider, 2023)

    The first major problem is that it will give racists ammunition for several months. Within hours of the leak, the leader of the ComicsGate movement Ethan Van Sciver has openly embraced these news. Several YouTube videos of ComicsGate members literally celebrating her death have also popped up. Even if we assume she will be back by fall, an entire summer of racists using Kamala’s death as ammunition is still unacceptable. Given the mass reach of social media and that internet time is a thing, an entire summer of online racism is more damaging in 2023 than in 2003. Marvel cannot afford empowering an online hate group for that long.

    If Ms. Marvel had to be reintroduced as a mutant, there is no reason she had to die for it. Plenty of characters went from non-mutants to mutants and vice-versa without dying. Quicksilver went from mutant to Inhuman without dying. Franklin Richards was introduced without powers and was retconned into being a mutant later, and then retconned back into a non-mutant. “Death” has never been a common denominator in the human-to-mutant or Inhuman-to-mutant conversion process of the Marvel Universe. It is one of the reasons why Kamala’s death comes off as cheap shock value.

    Even if Kamala “had” to die, why kill her in a Spider-Man book? A smarter option would have been to give her her own miniseries. Another option would have been to give her a prominent role in an X-Men title where she could be reintroduced as a mutant later this year. If for some odd reason it had to be a Spider-Man book, it would have made more sense to do it in Miles Morales. Miles and Kamala are close friends and teammates on the Champions, whereas Peter and Kamala have only interacted on a few occasions.

    If she “had” to die in The Amazing Spider-Man, maybe it could have worked if she was at least a major character throughout Zeb Wells’ first twenty-five issues. Instead, Kamala appeared in only twelve panels leading up to ASM#26.

    Another problem is where and how she dies. No one in the leaked panels has any connection to her. In other words, it appears that Kamala dies with none of her close ones by her side. No friend or family member appears to be there. No one else from her supporting cast seems to be there either. Miles Morales and the Champions are also missing. Norman Osborn is there, which is a strange choice given he is the character responsible for a female fridging from fifty years ago that inspired this one (more on this below). The closest civilian stand-in she gets besides Mary Jane (whom she also has no connection to) is maybe Paul – a character that isn’t even a character but a non-entity created by Wells simply to keep Peter and MJ apart, and who has become an internet meme, laughing stock, and symbol of laziness within the Spider-Man fanbase. If the Wells run will be remembered at all, Paul will become an example of everything to avoid in a superhero comic.

    The marketing leading up to this was remarkably tone-deaf. This entire issue was marketed months in advance as a celebration of the 50th anniversary of Gwen Stacy’s death. The problem is that anytime someone compares a comic death to Gwen’s, they imply permanence. Gwen’s death is one of the only deaths in comics that “can’t” be undone. It’s a taboo in the industry. It’s part of why racists are happy and have so much ammunition from this. It’s also why many Spider-Man fans were worried that Wells and Lowe would kill Mary Jane “for good”. Thus even if Ms. Marvel comes back, it was simply irresponsible for Lowe and Wells to send the message of permanence and to muddy the waters of her death like that for months in a row. They introduced doubt into the equation and did nothing to alleviate the fears but insist that it’s a good story. That isn’t good enough.

    Even more tone-deaf is the fact this issue will be released at the end of Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month. To offer an analogy, imagine if Marvel “fridged” Shuri’s Black Panther or Storm from X-Men in a February.

    The upcoming Fallen Friend mini further suggests that a core intent here was to make Peter Parker “sad” – a core theme found in the Women in Refrigerators trope.

    Regardless of how we look at it, this was a terrible decision on Marvel’s end.
    Last edited by Kaitou D. Kid; 05-20-2023 at 07:58 AM.

  2. #2
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    Part 2 and Conclusion!

    THE PROBLEM WITH SPIDER-MAN EDITORIAL

    To the rest of the world, the leak on May 16th was a shocking example of how out of touch a Marvel editorial team can be with their young, modern audiences. To Spider-Man fans, it was just another Tuesday in a world where an editorial team consistently makes decisions that alienate those audiences, but nonetheless brags about understanding those audiences better than anyone else.

    Sixteen years ago when this editorial team came in effect, Spider-Man was stripped of his marriage to Mary Jane. For the next sixteen years to present day, he has been continuously stripped of his maturity and competence. According to Tom Brevoort and his brain trust, the justification for all of this was that Spider-Man is about “youth”, and that all these decisions were made to appeal to new and younger readers. Spider-Man fans have consistently pointed out that Millennial and Gen Z readers are more likely to oppose One More Day and to demand a more mature depiction of Peter Parker, but Editorial always stood their ground that no one understands what new younger readers want better than they do.

    It is no coincidence that an editorial team this out of touch with their younger audiences would think they can get away with callously killing the Spider-Man of the 21st Century, Kamala Khan/Ms. Marvel, using one of the most misogynistic tropes in comic book history. It is because despite all their talk of how plugged in they are to the “youth”, they are more disconnected from that demographic than anyone else. If Editorial thought they could fridge this character with minimal backlash, they are clearly and inarguably out of touch with the “youth”.

    CONCLUSION

    It is now clear beyond all doubt to both Spider-Man fans and to pop culture at large that the Spider-Man Editorial Team does not know what “youths” want. They cannot claim they understand the Stan Lee Spider-Man comics or “essence” of Spider-Man better than anyone else. If they did, they would not have callously killed the character whose comics resemble the Lee/Ditko Spider-Man comics the most, and whose spirit resembled the spirit of Spider-Man the most. They cannot claim that a married Peter Parker with kids would be unappealing or “off-putting” to Gen Z readers, as they are the least qualified group of people to make that call. They cannot claim that One More Day is necessary or that it shouldn’t be undone, since One More Day is just a by-product of their disconnect with “youth” since the 2000’s.

    It is time for One More Day to be undone and for this editorial team to be displaced of their draconian control on this character.

  3. #3
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    A very solid article that breaks down a lot of the controversy nicely. I do find it so funny that Marvel is always talking about how Spidey has to appeal to the youth and that's why he can't be married. When most of my generation grew up with Married Spidey and loved the marriage. Then you have the fact that Spider-man will ALWAYS appeal to kids, regardless of what goes on in the comics. As long as there's cartoons and movies, Spidey will have younger fans. Those same younger fans? Are not reading ASM. While I'm sure there's some kids who may read it, if their parent already buys it or maybe they are just a fan, they're not the core demo buying ASM. They haven't been that core demo for a long, long, long time.

    People reading ASM are older people. I didn't start reading it monthly until I was a teenager myself. This notion that ASM has to be appealing to kids is just asinine at best, and it's dishonest at worst. Lying to themselves and the fans, telling the readers they don't know what they really want. Just shut up about the marriage already. Not gonna happen.

    Another thing, ASM may be selling well, but that group of older fans reading shrinks a little more each year. Sure, there's some kids who may jump into the comics, but they'll likely go for stuff they recognize like what they see in the games or Spider-verse movies. Which current ASM doesn't even remotely resemble. If they burn enough of those older fans, they can't just get them back or hope new fans take their place. Eventually pissing everyone off, just makes everyone hate you and not want anything to do with you anymore. It's just bad business all around.

  4. #4
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    Wow. You wrote a lengthy article on how everything they think is wrong and everything you think is right.

    That's ... really sad.

  5. #5
    Ultimate Member Johnny's Avatar
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    If they sacrificed a Pakistani teenager so two white people who already don't love each other anymore can remain separated, chances are they don't know much about "youth".

  6. #6
    Ultimate Member WebLurker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Wow. You wrote a lengthy article on how everything they think is wrong and everything you think is right.

    That's ... really sad.
    Let me get this straight; someone had a strong opinion on something, took the trouble to write out and explain why they feel that way point-by-point, and your first thought is to mock them just because you don't agree with them?

    Wow, that is really sad.
    Doctor Strange: "You are the right person to replace Logan."
    X-23: "I know there are people who disapprove... Guys on the Internet mainly."
    (All-New Wolverine #4)

  7. #7
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    Initially, I think the idea behind OMD/BND was a book written for a supposed target demographic which predominated in the 90s: a stereotype of the teenage white male consumer. This consumer is theoretically only interested in reading about a Peter that is young and single and free to date the next hot chick. Its why the women of 90s Marvel were 99% **** and ass. And they balked at the idea of writing something for an older audience.

    Now, I think they've totally abandoned that idea. The book isn't being written to appeal to anyone. Not the older fans. Not the zoomers. Not even this mythical teenage white dude (you think they'd be interested in reading about the umpteenth Peter-Mary Jane break-up saga?) No, they seem to be fully embracing rage bait as a sales tactic. They know readers will loathe what's happening and that's the target they're aiming for. It almost feels spiteful. The question is when all of this rage bait can go too far (as in the case with Kamala.)

  8. #8
    Mighty Member Malachi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Wow. You wrote a lengthy article on how everything they think is wrong and everything you think is right.

    That's ... really sad.
    Opinion, ever heard of it before? Ever read a newspaper?

    But then you are just trolling. That's ... really sad.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Wow. You wrote a lengthy article on how everything they think is wrong and everything you think is right.

    That's ... really sad.
    Well... yeah. That's what humans do, y'know. They have an open exchange of dialogue about stuff.

    You're welcome to post your own thoughts if you disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by WebLurker View Post
    Let me get this straight; someone had a strong opinion on something, took the trouble to write out and explain why they feel that way point-by-point, and your first thought is to mock them just because you don't agree with them?

    Wow, that is really sad.
    He is basically saying "Protest but not like that".

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Wow. You wrote a lengthy article on how everything they think is wrong and everything you think is right.

    That's ... really sad.
    If you don't agree with him there's not need to be an a**hole to a guy just sharing his thoughts on a subject.

    Also, "Reductio ad absurdum"

  11. #11
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Please be respectful of other peoples' opinions folks, whether you agree with them or otherwise.

  12. #12
    Mighty Member Garlador's Avatar
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    Phenomenal summary. You got me to pop back up on the forums to respond.

    And I wonder if this is actually the final straw that causes Marvel to do some soul searching. I'm compiling reports and news articles to send their way after the official launch of the comic on May 31st (to give them the absolutely benefit of the doubt and have it all in context), but I'll be sure to add this summary to the message.

    Like most of us, we don't think for a moment that this "death" is going to stick for long, and she'll likely pop back up with MCU powers as a mutant for maximum MCU synergy. But it's worth repeating for those in the back, it's not the death that's the issue. It's how they've gone about it, the larger implications of what it means to people OUTSIDE of comics (the worst kinds of people are celebrating right now), and the sort of cultural and racial disconnect white writers and editors sacrificing their largest ethnic heroine at the alter of a white character's comic solely as a cynical stunt to boost sales goes beyond the pale of traditional "shocking deaths". It's offensive and unacceptable, and the most generous response I have currently is "never ascribe to malice what is better explained by [ignorance]."

    There should be conversations happening right now. This was irresponsible writing.

  13. #13
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spider-Tiger View Post
    Initially, I think the idea behind OMD/BND was a book written for a supposed target demographic which predominated in the 90s: a stereotype of the teenage white male consumer. This consumer is theoretically only interested in reading about a Peter that is young and single and free to date the next hot chick. Its why the women of 90s Marvel were 99% **** and ass. And they balked at the idea of writing something for an older audience.

    Now, I think they've totally abandoned that idea. The book isn't being written to appeal to anyone. Not the older fans. Not the zoomers. Not even this mythical teenage white dude (you think they'd be interested in reading about the umpteenth Peter-Mary Jane break-up saga?) No, they seem to be fully embracing rage bait as a sales tactic. They know readers will loathe what's happening and that's the target they're aiming for. It almost feels spiteful. The question is when all of this rage bait can go too far (as in the case with Kamala.)
    The funny thing though.... What does this type of person want in life? A sexy wife who's not only fun in bed but a great help in daily life too?

    I mean, some people have "happily married family man and father of two children" as a goal they aspire to. It's not a fate they dread, but their ambition in life.

  14. #14
    The Superior One Celgress's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnny View Post
    If they sacrificed a Pakistani teenager so two white people who already don't love each other anymore can remain separated, chances are they don't know much about "youth".
    You forgot that behind the scenes two middle-aged guys (a writer and an editor) must have thought this was a good idea...

    But, yeah, all this will do is make more fans angry namely fans of Ms. Marvel (of which I am one). Marvel Editorial already had Spidey fans angry about PaulxMJ and now they are slapping Ms. Marvel fans in the face by throwing her under the bus in a book where she has only been a bit player. I swear, aside from Pro Wrestling, American Comics is the industry in which those involved are most obsessed with "owning da fanboys and fangirls". No wonder an increasingly large percentage of the fanbase is becoming or has already become toxic.
    "So you've come to the end now alive but dead inside."

  15. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Wow. You wrote a lengthy article on how everything they think is wrong and everything you think is right.

    That's ... really sad.
    That's literally how a lot of people make a living, what on earth are you on about?
    harryosborn.net -Me rereading every single comic that has Harry Osborn in it, and also writing some articles.

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