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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jbenito View Post
    It's basically Hickman's own comic universe via substack. He brought in Ewing and a few others to world-build it then recently had him come back in to write. I'm not a paid subscriber but I'm considering it because the art is really speaking to me: https://3w3m.substack.com/
    I actually did subscribe to Hickman *edit* substack for that but when all the character designs started to come out it lost all steam for me and subsequently i fell off substack. lol So i don't even think an assist from ewing can get me into that G.O.D.S thing. i wished he helped with the designs. I mean red is the first book in like ever where i was like "this book could really use a white woman." lmao. Lol to be clear i was thinking about women i liked that people would usually be like, especially me, there are a lot of white women on this team. like betsy, polaris, jean, could be thrown on red and actually have a unique space they only occupy. i can't think of another comic like that at marvel.
    Last edited by jwatson; 05-25-2023 at 06:26 PM. Reason: hickman's substack not ewing.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicoclaws View Post
    Totally agree with you about magic and science in media, and that it generally mixes weirdly with the concept of mutants. If magic is linked to spirituality, does it mean that mutants have another spirituality than humans, just because of a gene ?
    Personnally I LOVE the idea of mutant culture and even the Spark, now that I thought about it. But what I like about Krakoa is they're finding new ways because they're TRYING, not because it's innate in the X-genome.
    The idea of a mutant culture, as in a shared set of cultural norms, practices, traits, etc. based on the unique situation of being a mutant (a person born with a gene that grants them a random super power, something shared by several other people aswell), is actualy quite sound and can add some interesting fluff to the X-verse.

    However because of the limitation of the setting, the randomized super powers as source of identity and limitations in the ability/dedication of the writers to develop such fictional cultural elements in a way that they look/feel genuine, these should argubaly only be primarily intended as additional cultural quirks, rather than supersede the "human" cultures at the core of almost all X-men characters.

    Otherwise it hollows them out by removing well constructed and understood culture from them and replacing it with something with practically no substance.

    In this regard Krakoa is also somewhat of a a bad setting to create mutant culture, since it was never build "by" mutants but "for" mutants. Xavier basicly snapped Krakoa into existence, as this safe haven for mutants with all the wonderous new things and promises of comming greatness, which then dominated their way of life right away. As such it was practically forced upon them and then dictated how they were now supposed to be, rather than letting them develop in their own.

    It's an entirely artifical construct even in universe and the narrative in which is what constructed was seemingly never even meant to create anything lasting or fundamental in this regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicoclaws View Post
    I like your idea for circuits as biomachinery, and it could be/have been Hickman's endgame indeed BUT.
    I also like to think metatextually that mutants DO work better has a team (book) and they put that into a word/concept and expanded it to a community level. Like they thought "oh, why do X-solos kinda feel weird ? Oh because they work together way better !"
    That is indeed a major difference to say the Avengers or Justice League. The majority of X-men are primarily constructed as team characters with no previous solo outings, which means that's also where they are designed to work best, limiting their solo potential.

    However i would argue that having the X-men as part of the mutant community would be better than having them in charge of it, since it's restricts them too much and puts too much responcebility into their hands. Something that could also be said about the problem of the big school concept the movies introduced and comics copied.
    Last edited by Grunty; 05-24-2023 at 06:06 PM.

  3. #78
    Astonishing Member Micabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Based on X's.

    In humans witches are that thing and more likely to have innate magic because they have two x chromosomes.
    Men are half as likely to be born with innate magic because they have one x chromosome.
    So the x-gene turns everything on its head because now women who are mutant are xxx and men are xxy. The odds. ^_^
    But, which known mutant women are xxx, and which men are xxy, and how would we know the difference? Oh, did I just conflate the issue?
    Last edited by Micabe; 05-25-2023 at 12:00 PM.
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  4. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by Micabe View Post
    But, which known mutant women are xxx, and which men are xxy, and how would we know the difference? Oh, did I just conflate the issue?
    all mutant woman are XXX two x chromosomes and an x-gene, all male mutants are xxy because they have one x chromosome and y chromosome and an x-gene making the amount of x's 2 for men and 3 for women. But not all x's are created equal.
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  5. #80
    2023: The Year of Hellion Rift's Avatar
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    So you're saying the X-Men have extra chromosomes?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mungho View Post
    "Why doesn't Hellion use the Eye of Agametto to destroy Krakoa and save the mutants?"

  6. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rift View Post
    So you're saying the X-Men have extra chromosomes?
    I'm just counting X's. lol It's super tongue and cheek because of all the x's and o's. in the original post i was going to put the guy who head explodes gif, but i got lazy. It was just a bit of my inner hellion coming out. lol
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  7. #82
    Astonishing Member Galerion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaishwarya View Post
    That's my thing though...If o--:[A]:--o Tini wants to claim magic superiority then...he/she can look to Wanda whose magic is innate. Or Megan or Amanda or even Storm. As compared to someone like Kate.
    Personally, it was one of those things that should have been left on Tini's editing room floor (Hickman gave writers too much leeway in the early part of this era) And would have been best ignored now. Alas...
    There is this thing. Apocalypse is a fanatic. If he thinks something is better despite it clearly not being so then that's OK. That's what makes him a fanatic. But if you write a character like that then you also have to give him the eventual reckoning about the fact that he is indeed wrong. If you don't then it all rings hollow because you as reader already know he is wrong.
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  8. #83
    Mighty Member Taurean Sun's Avatar
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    So what is the difference between mutant magic, mutant circuits and mutant technology.
    Ororo Munroe is Twilight Sparkle in xmen red if that makes sense.

  9. #84
    Super Dupont Nicoclaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taurean Sun View Post
    So what is the difference between mutant magic, mutant circuits and mutant technology.
    Isn't mutant technology just krakoa/Forge inventions ?
    Mutant circuits is using mutant powers in combination to achieve something more than the sum of its part.
    Mutant magic is that applied to magic, so it has to have specific rules and rituals.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galerion View Post
    There is this thing. Apocalypse is a fanatic. If he thinks something is better despite it clearly not being so then that's OK. That's what makes him a fanatic. But if you write a character like that then you also have to give him the eventual reckoning about the fact that he is indeed wrong. If you don't then it all rings hollow because you as reader already know he is wrong.
    Problem is that Hickman, Howard and Duggan were all in on Apocalypse being justified in everything either because he ended up saving Arakko, or that human attitudes and refusal to die off* justified all his atrocities like the Bronze Age collapse; and that Cable should be grateful for all the horrors Poccy inflicted on his family because it made them stronger

    *incidentally, constantly retconning in older and older lost mutant civilisations kind of undermines the concept of mutants being the future as A) they’ve been around the whole time and B)mutant utopia after mutant utopia (all to some extent dependent on its members having the right powers/level of power) keep collapsing while the baselines keep multiplying and turning tool use into tech

  11. #86
    Super Dupont Nicoclaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king of hybrids View Post
    Problem is that Hickman, Howard and Duggan were all in on Apocalypse being justified in everything either because he ended up saving Arakko, or that human attitudes and refusal to die off* justified all his atrocities like the Bronze Age collapse; and that Cable should be grateful for all the horrors Poccy inflicted on his family because it made them stronger

    *incidentally, constantly retconning in older and older lost mutant civilisations kind of undermines the concept of mutants being the future as A) they’ve been around the whole time and B)mutant utopia after mutant utopia (all to some extent dependent on its members having the right powers/level of power) keep collapsing while the baselines keep multiplying and turning tool use into tech
    I don't think the writers mean that Apocalypse was justified. They just changed his reasons to make him more sympathetic and relatable (find his family). It kinds of undermine AoA and Cable's future though.

    I think Marauder's end was meant to retroactively explain the "ancient mutant civilisation" by making the Threshold come from Krakoa. The Threshold gets wiped out, but some survive (Xilo), and then them and their genetic codes make more mutants over the centuries.

  12. #87
    Mighty Member Taurean Sun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicoclaws View Post
    Isn't mutant technology just krakoa/Forge inventions ?
    Mutant circuits is using mutant powers in combination to achieve something more than the sum of its part.
    Mutant magic is that applied to magic, so it has to have specific rules and rituals.
    If memory serves me correctly want the Six considered mutant technology? And didnt doom also state that they too where mutant technology as they want in to the white hot room and condensed the primordial kirbons? Something he even stated the technopaths will love.


    So it seems mutant tech and mutant circuits are one and the same? And so is mutant magic?
    Ororo Munroe is Twilight Sparkle in xmen red if that makes sense.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taurean Sun View Post
    If memory serves me correctly want the Six considered mutant technology? And didnt doom also state that they too where mutant technology as they want in to the white hot room and condensed the primordial kirbons? Something he even stated the technopaths will love.


    So it seems mutant tech and mutant circuits are one and the same? And so is mutant magic?
    Mutant circuits are just considered a form of mutant technology, yes. Mutant magic seems to be different though, but still community/cooperation oriented. Its more about energies than powers specifically. Part of the problem with defining it or seeing it in action, IMO - with mutant circuits, you have to show the precise powers being used in combination, but mutant magic basically is just covens of mutants pooling their collective power. So fingers crossed we get more 'rules' for it, from Ewing. Its definitely something people are interested in learning more about, I think, its just very...vague and hazily written about so there's not many parameters established for it, and without that, its very hard to picture or speculate about.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicoclaws View Post
    Isn't mutant technology just krakoa/Forge inventions ?
    I recall mutant technology basicly refers to the idea of mutants using their super powers to immitate the functions of technological creations.
    Or more precisely what sapient beings who have no access to (what would be considered by real world standard) super powers would need to create machinery for.

    With the basic example mentioned on pannel being the fast ball special.

    Essentialy because Collosus has super strength he can immitate the function of a catapult/trebuchet when throwing objects and because Wolverine is a small angry harry guy with super sharp blades, super endurance and a healing factor, he can immitate the function of a cassowary being launched by a catapult at someone.

    Joke aside. Another example could be that if someone (human or many species of aliens) want to create electricity they would need produce something like a dynamo. A technological device which produces electricity via the application of movement energy. Meanwhile there are mutants who can create electricity from nowhere which could then be put directly into a system.

    The extremes of this idea were allready visible in X-men when forged turned Caliban into a part of his protective suit to use him as mutant detector, or how Sinister build his space ship in SOS using various cloned mutants to create functions on his ship like shields, engines, teleportation, etc. which are normaly filled by machine creations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicoclaws View Post
    Mutant circuits is using mutant powers in combination to achieve something more than the sum of its part.
    Sounds about right.

    Using the above example about electricity. Since the electricity creating mutant might not be able to perfom that feat 24/7, it would make sense to find a mutant who has the power to store and release electricity. The first charges the second up for a while and the second releases the electricity consistently over several hours, giving the first time to recover.

    This can then for example be expanded with a third mutant who can create worm holes, allowing the electricity to be transfered over longer distances in a short amount of time and a fourth mutant with telepathy who can then connect the other 3 in order to coordinate the production, storage, release and transference to be become "perfectly" synchronized. Hence a circuit.

    With enough mutants this process can then be copied multiple times, resulting in a full blown power grid with no need for reactors/generators, long distant cables, computers to regulate the flow and so on.

    However neither the idea of using super powers to immitate the functions of technology, nor combining them to create the function of more complex machinery are really new or even unique to mutants or Marvel comics in general. Just look at the cartoon franchise Avatar: The Last Airbender and its sequel series.

    Rather the labeling feels to me like it was part of an attempt to "mystify" them as being more special than special, OR at least make it look like they considered themself that as part of an overarching theme.

    After all, Xavier's and Moira's plan for Krakoa was created under the theme of rejecting "human technology", because it leads to AIs and Sentinels, who will cause the unpowered humans to become post humans, who will then cause mutants to lose and so on.

    So with such an ideology at the center of their nation and being constantly confronted with the idea of being more special and mystical via "mutant technology", "mutant circuits" and "mutant magic", it would certainly create a stronger incentive for "common mutants" to seek out fullfilling the "purpose" their powers give them rather than do something else.

    A mutant with electricity power might easily feel pressured into becomming a generator rather than an accountant who just happens to have elecricity powers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicoclaws View Post
    Mutant magic is that applied to magic, so it has to have specific rules and rituals.
    This too seems to be what is intended.
    Mutants basicly using their powers to synergize with certain forms of magical spells and powers that complement them. However because that isn't unique to mutants either, it once again feels like an attempt at "mystifying" them.

    Which would also explain how the "X", which just happens to be icon of the X-men super hero team of mutants is suddently the most superior magical sigil.

    It makes more sense that Apocalypse just made that one up as form of proganda.
    Last edited by Grunty; 05-26-2023 at 06:43 AM.

  15. #90
    Astonishing Member Micabe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king of hybrids View Post
    Problem is that Hickman, Howard and Duggan were all in on Apocalypse being justified in everything either because he ended up saving Arakko, or that human attitudes and refusal to die off* justified all his atrocities like the Bronze Age collapse; and that Cable should be grateful for all the horrors Poccy inflicted on his family because it made them stronger

    *incidentally, constantly retconning in older and older lost mutant civilisations kind of undermines the concept of mutants being the future as A) they’ve been around the whole time and B)mutant utopia after mutant utopia (all to some extent dependent on its members having the right powers/level of power) keep collapsing while the baselines keep multiplying and turning tool use into tech
    I concur... Did we all not just witness the ascension of a mutant nation called Krakoa, straight through to its ruination within three-story arcs? This, all while baseline human groups like Orchis were free to leisurely develop and perfect technology capable of self-replication and counteracting nearly any mutant ability given time and durability?



    Last edited by Micabe; 05-26-2023 at 04:00 PM.
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