The Gotham War: Batman vs. Catwoman Crossover

[Morgoth]

And how everyone will be willing to have any relationship with Bruce, if he's completely gone mental? I mean, if he can't control Zur, that pretty much the same thing as Harvey and Two-Face.

[MAR420X]

one of the variants covers of batman 140 is a spoiler for batman 137.......

also seems like red mask story might not b done with the reappearance of the joker

[Frontier]

How this will even work with Batman and Robin? BnR is placed in a different time frame?

B&R about to be the only book starring Bruce people want to read .

[Vordan]

They keep doing this “Bruce pushes away the Batfamily” storyline and it’s gotten old. Either keep Bruce estranged from the other Bats for a long time, say 5 years minimum, or find something else to break as part of the inevitable NOTHING WILL EVER BE THE SAME event consequences.

How this will even work with Batman and Robin? BnR is placed in a different time frame?

Damian will side with Bruce I expect.

[TheKryptonMan]

It's always the nothing will ever be the same , except that it is .
I've actually grown tired of Catwoman with Batman . If they had actually gotten married when King was writing Batman , I would have been ok with it.
Or they could just live together as Bruce & Selina .
But now we're so far removed from that Wedding that never happened . That the best thing to do is break them up completely.
I'll pick up the main Batman book as always and just try to follow it that way.
Books are getting too expensive at $5 a pop , if not more .
It's ok when they have extra content to justify the price , but when it's just 20 pages like Spider-Man , I'll have to pass .

Here I was writing about Batman , when suddenly I started venting about Spider-Man , lol 😆
Well Chip did or does still work at Marvel .

[Morgoth]

I actually don't really get this pretty weird intention to destroy Bruce and Selina relationship. I would get it if DiDio was in charge, but, we have completely new leadership, with seemingly new mentality and approach, like it's happening with Dick/Barbara or Wally/Linda. There's no actual reason to try so hard to make them literally hate each other. I really don't understand what's DC's angle here.

[Drako]

Damian will side with Bruce I expect.

What Williamson said about BnR in the podcast a couple of days ago doesn't align with this solicit. It looks like Bruce is not a good place mentally, and Williamson talked like the Batman he is writing is healthy.

[Astralabius]

I actually don't really get this pretty weird intention to destroy Bruce and Selina relationship. I would get it if DiDio was in charge, but, we have completely new leadership, with seemingly new mentality and approach, like it's happening with Dick/Barbara or Wally/Linda. There's no actual reason to try so hard to make them literally hate each other. I really don't understand what's DC's angle here.

They didn't need to tear down Talia to push Selina as the new main love interest and yet they did.
Plus, lots of people were tired of batcat after King's run. I think by focusing on them so much and long he might have spelled their doom.

[Morgoth]

They didn't need to tear down Talia to push Selina as the new main love interest and yet they did.

Which reminds me, maybe their plan to reunite Bruce with Talia, because they will be a thing in Brave and Bold. Which is why they're tearing down Bruce/Selina relationship.

What Williamson said about BnR in the podcast a couple of days ago doesn't align with this solicit. It looks like Bruce is not a good place mentally, and Williamson talked like the Batman he is writing is healthy.

That's good, actually. There's at least an alternative for people, who are sick of what they're doing with Batman in his main books. Series about Bruce and Damian just being a Dynamic Duo and father and son is perfect opportunity to ignore everything else, and keep reading Batman. The same goes with Ram V.

[dietrich]

The usual process is to wait for the movie to a success before any synergy with comics I doubt this is anything to do with movie. I don't think the upcoming movies are influencing comics.

Prior to The batgirl movie Babs wasn't taking over Terry's post.
DC's past movies didn't sync up with the comics before they came out not sure why now suddenly they'd change.

If Gunn is a fan of morrison's Batman then Talia and Bruce would not be a couple. Talia and Bruce not being together is kind of a huge deal in that story and in Damian's narrative. It's a story about divorce and how it affects kids.

I think DC might just want to mix it up. They are just doing a bad job of it. Bruce and selina don't have to fight.

[godisawesome]

Talia’s unequivocal “she is a horrible person” turn was more a Morrison-specific maneuver with a character who’d always kind of been a bit of a shallow contradiction that Morrison saw potential as a Big Bad in *and* that Morrison felt justified in leaning in the greater substance of Talia that wasn’t just “sexy, exotic love interest” - and since she’d generally always been cool with her dad’s genocide, that made her Morrison-era characterization generally pretty acceptable, albeit disappointing for fans of the pairing or for fans who would want a more dramatic play-out of why she and Bruce could have been lovers and then broken up if she was always just a monster.

I’d argue Talia still sort of gets held back as a character in the lore because as good as Denny O’Neill was, his concept for her was overall pretty banal and limited; she either needs to lose the more sociopathic characterization required of serving her father faithfully and just become a neutral character (which they tried in the 90s but maybe sort of killed some of the interest in her given how little else there was to her at the time), lean into her villainy (which works off a villain but kills the intrigue of her relationship with a Bruce), or get overhauled into a character who changed drastically from a previously sympathetic character to a villain. (which no one’s done with her yet.)

Her “fall” as a love interest was simply coincidentally aligned with Selina’s ascension as a serious love interest again… though Selina’s had a major advantage by not being directly involved with mass murder plans for some time.

I suspect DC’s general desire to break Selina and Bruce up is a simple lack of interest and desire among editors and writers to execute a long term relationship between them that King spearheaded, but sort of botched.

The good news is that at least they’re not invoking magical bullshit to split them up after a generally approved get together. (So, not pulling a Spider-Man editorial…)

It’s just sort of annoying they feel the need to temporarily “salt the earth” with a Selina and Bruce for a while when we know that won’t last.

(I still say the smarter thing would be to have Bruce and Selina get married/“married,” then simply start a new cycle of them managing to make it work for a while, then having a fight and getting estranged for a while, then emotionally reconciling, then starting the whole thing over again. I feel like the two characters have enough similarities and differences to make that work, and honestly, Bruce being a rich kid with issues and Selina a loveable rogue with issues would make that entertaining.)

[dietrich]

Talia’s unequivocal “she is a horrible person” turn was more a Morrison-specific maneuver with a character who’d always kind of been a bit of a shallow contradiction that Morrison saw potential as a Big Bad in *and* that Morrison felt justified in leaning in the greater substance of Talia that wasn’t just “sexy, exotic love interest” - and since she’d generally always been cool with her dad’s genocide, that made her Morrison-era characterization generally pretty acceptable, albeit disappointing for fans of the pairing or for fans who would want a more dramatic play-out of why she and Bruce could have been lovers and then broken up if she was always just a monster.

I’d argue Talia still sort of gets held back as a character in the lore because as good as Denny O’Neill was, his concept for her was overall pretty banal and limited; she either needs to lose the more sociopathic characterization required of serving her father faithfully and just become a neutral character (which they tried in the 90s but maybe sort of killed some of the interest in her given how little else there was to her at the time), lean into her villainy (which works off a villain but kills the intrigue of her relationship with a Bruce), or get overhauled into a character who changed drastically from a previously sympathetic character to a villain. (which no one’s done with her yet.)

Her “fall” as a love interest was simply coincidentally aligned with Selina’s ascension as a serious love interest again… though Selina’s had a major advantage by not being directly involved with mass murder plans for some time.

I suspect DC’s general desire to break Selina and Bruce up is a simple lack of interest and desire among editors and writers to execute a long term relationship between them that King spearheaded, but sort of botched.

The good news is that at least they’re not invoking magical bullshit to split them up after a generally approved get together. (So, not pulling a Spider-Man editorial…)

It’s just sort of annoying they feel the need to temporarily “salt the earth” with a Selina and Bruce for a while when we know that won’t last.

(I still say the smarter thing would be to have Bruce and Selina get married/“married,” then simply start a new cycle of them managing to make it work for a while, then having a fight and getting estranged for a while, then emotionally reconciling, then starting the whole thing over again. I feel like the two characters have enough similarities and differences to make that work, and honestly, Bruce being a rich kid with issues and Selina a loveable rogue with issues would make that entertaining.)

King pretty much gave us Bruce and Selina married during his run. the only thing missing was paperwork.

I didn't find the time spent showing us the two together at home all that exciting. The complications and ethics of the two together while Selina was still carrying on with her nighttime activities was ignored sadly.

That conflict of interest imo could have been mined for some good story arcs. A double date with Clark and Lois is great but how do the JL feel about Bruce married to a known thief/ How the Wayne kids who fight crime every night feel about a stepmom who is robbing as they are fighting to stop robbers?

We might see Selina as a lovable rouge but how do the people who get physically injured every night stopping crime feel about her? Bruce doesn't view them as lovable as he hangs muggers from Gargoyels every night. maybe thebats who don't get any sex from Selina might view her differently.

I mean a few of them literally got ended in the line of duty. How does Selina feel about that? does it make her respect his mission more?

I have to say the fact that Selina stole her wedding dress felt like a piss take. She doesn't need to help Bruce save pennies by taking from the likely middle class owners of that shop.

I don't know what else having them get married could possibly have added. Bruce happy? I feel Bruce already is as happy as he can be with his family, his lover and without therapy.

Any additional peace and contentment honestly can only from Bruce facing his issues not from an external source.Bruce is already surrounded with love so the question of if marriage = a happier Bruce is no.

I liked Morrison's Talia. She had agency. Whatever she was doing, good or bad it was her making her own choices not being a Honey Pot for her father.

I never bought into this Morrison ruined Talia narrative. Talia co-signed and went along with a lot of her fathers and the LOA's exploits. These exploits include the training of kids from a very young age. She cool with weaponizing other people's kids but not her own? What does that say about her?
She also went along with that shady marriage in the desert so she has been involved in a plot to trick Bruce into having binding ties to her.

If you are going to do crimes and bad **** at least do it for yourself and for your own reasons. Nothing worse than saying she was made to do it against her will. That makes her a puppets and not much of a character.

Love interest only gets so much mileage both for Talia and for Selina.

Talia going full villain and owning it might be the thing that'll rekindle interest in her romance with Bruce that giving them a child together nuked. Superman editor told Tomasi that fans don't buy Superhero comics to read about happy families, going to fair and eating apple pies. They want them for punches.

I know fans of the Brutalia ship blame Morrison making her full bad for killing all possibilities of that ship sailing again but I feel that the real poison was giving them a kid in canon who is present and running around.

From what we know Bruce still loves her. He was happy and inlove waking up next to her and he still spoke about her with every time after so it's not like the narrative is pretending like the love is gone. I just don't see the draw in exploring that romance as is currently just like I don't draw in Bruce and Selina getting that piece of paper that says they are married.

[Frontier]

Honestly I don't see DC committing to Bruce in a stable relationship one way or another.

[godisawesome]

That’s why I think an on-again, off-again, but serious relationship would be the best idea - especially since I think that, if you’re keeping true to Selina’s MO as an independent anti-hero, it would make more sense for the rest of the family to find most of her activities highly tolerable or even a beneficial allied strategy… before some inevitable drama would arise in an organic way that some family members would take worse than others, and she’d split off for awhile.

About half the time, Selina is explicitly arrayed against genuinely greater villains, and not as competitors, but as her targets. And most of the other half of the time, she’s still targeting either people who can take it, or who are still morally objectionable. So it’s really hard to see why the family would have issues with her 95% of the time as long as, say, Jason could conceivably be on good terms with them while still killing people (even just ones who “deserve it.”)

To be frank, ever since the supermajority of cases the Bats investigate have become murders and other violent crimes and Catwoman became more a strictly professional thief and sometime-vigilante rather than a conventional super-hero, the idea that she and Batman have some kind of “incompatibility” based off their professionals has taken a major hit. People who are serious about writing Catwoman never show her robbing someone the audience would feel bad about; people who are serious about the Batcharacters never show them seeking out non-violent thief’s and burglars. That’s why pretty much everyone is more likely to fight Jason than they are seriously confront Selina.

…And I’ll be honest, my main critical complaint against stubbornly keeping a character perpetually single in comics is that it tends to, at some point, lead to shitty writing from dudes who want to add some “sex appeal” to their book and proceed to write a sexist caricature of a forgettable female character, or screw up an established female character, or try to provoke “shipper wars” that no one wants, etc. A particular offshoot problem, specific to Batman and this story, is artificially manufacturing a story that no one is excited for and that likely relies on writing Batman in a vaguely elitist manner, or Catwoman in a vaguely stupid manner, and likely a bit of both.

That would change drastically if the element of the story was Bruce and Selina dealing with a relationship they periodically juggle between functional and dysfunctional; your romantically-inclined writer would have a previously established character for both heroes, and you’d have a reason as an editor to tell a writer who’s bad at writing romance to just forget about it, and a reason to have them both be separate and on their own.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

King pretty much gave us Bruce and Selina married during his run. the only thing missing was paperwork.

I didn't find the time spent showing us the two together at home all that exciting. The complications and ethics of the two together while Selina was still carrying on with her nighttime activities was ignored sadly.

That conflict of interest imo could have been mined for some good story arcs. A double date with Clark and Lois is great but how do the JL feel about Bruce married to a known thief/ How the Wayne kids who fight crime every night feel about a stepmom who is robbing as they are fighting to stop robbers?

We might see Selina as a lovable rouge but how do the people who get physically injured every night stopping crime feel about her? Bruce doesn't view them as lovable as he hangs muggers from Gargoyels every night. maybe thebats who don't get any sex from Selina might view her differently.

I mean a few of them literally got ended in the line of duty. How does Selina feel about that? does it make her respect his mission more?

I have to say the fact that Selina stole her wedding dress felt like a piss take. She doesn't need to help Bruce save pennies by taking from the likely middle class owners of that shop.

I don't know what else having them get married could possibly have added. Bruce happy? I feel Bruce already is as happy as he can be with his family, his lover and without therapy.

Any additional peace and contentment honestly can only from Bruce facing his issues not from an external source.Bruce is already surrounded with love so the question of if marriage = a happier Bruce is no.

I liked Morrison's Talia. She had agency. Whatever she was doing, good or bad it was her making her own choices not being a Honey Pot for her father.

I never bought into this Morrison ruined Talia narrative. Talia co-signed and went along with a lot of her fathers and the LOA's exploits. These exploits include the training of kids from a very young age. She cool with weaponizing other people's kids but not her own? What does that say about her?
She also went along with that shady marriage in the desert so she has been involved in a plot to trick Bruce into having binding ties to her.

If you are going to do crimes and bad **** at least do it for yourself and for your own reasons. Nothing worse than saying she was made to do it against her will. That makes her a puppets and not much of a character.

Love interest only gets so much mileage both for Talia and for Selina.

Talia going full villain and owning it might be the thing that'll rekindle interest in her romance with Bruce that giving them a child together nuked. Superman editor told Tomasi that fans don't buy Superhero comics to read about happy families, going to fair and eating apple pies. They want them for punches.

I know fans of the Brutalia ship blame Morrison making her full bad for killing all possibilities of that ship sailing again but I feel that the real poison was giving them a kid in canon who is present and running around.

From what we know Bruce still loves her. He was happy and inlove waking up next to her and he still spoke about her with every time after so it's not like the narrative is pretending like the love is gone. I just don't see the draw in exploring that romance as is currently just like I don't draw in Bruce and Selina getting that piece of paper that says they are married.

What do you think of the claims of Morrison's Talia leaning more into racism in her portrayal?