The Gotham War: Batman vs. Catwoman Crossover

[godisawesome]

That what they have been trying. Except they wrote Damian out and put Babs in a support roles. But thats more or less what they went with. Batgirls didn't take off, Tim bombed hard, and Jason is just bouncing from brutal action book to brutal action with the ideas escalating and becoming more outlandish as they fail. Its apparently not that simple.

...And part of the reason why being a good comic editor is its own distinct skill, and its requirements can change form time to time.

It feels like what the books need *right now* is an editor who's got better "quality control taste" than what we have right now. Just someone with solid enough taste to look at a story and go "This is good," "This is bad, but can be better if you address these criticisms I'm giving you at the first draft stage," or even just "This doesn't sound good enough for production. Go back to the brainstorming board."

Clearly, some administration skill is also needed for any crossover like this one, but right now editorial seems only focused on scheduling rather than evaluating output.

[Godlike13]

I mean, they tried to shove all three Batgirls into the single book (which didn't really work, or at least creative team wasn't good enough), and they completely refuse to give Tim some other development except making him bisexual and focus his entire character on that, not to mention Fitzmartin's writing and Rosmo's art, adding also a nostalgic factor. No wonder it bombed, audience doesn't really want to see that, there was nothing about it which was appealing.
The better approach is trying different things, not just this comfort zone Bat-Office prefers to stay in, when it comes to Bat-Family. Tim, Jason and Batgirls can work, they proved that in the past. They just need some ideas, not another story about how cool it was to be a comic book fan in the 90s.

People said for years that they wanted the three Batgirls in a single book, which honestly wasn't a bad book. I don't see them individually selling better these days. While they have tried for years to give Tim some other development to no avail, so they swung for the fences and tried to make him more trendy and appealing for todays audience by making him bi. This is what gets me. People didn't think Tim series was going to bomb until it did, and now people are trying say of course it did. The popular thought was that Tim was a sure thing. Which i think a lot of people still believe. Tim, Jason and the Batgirls can work but its not just that simple with them anymore. They aren't just failing because of a lack of ideas.

...And part of the reason why being a good comic editor is its own distinct skill, and its requirements can change form time to time.

It feels like what the books need *right now* is an editor who's got better "quality control taste" than what we have right now. Just someone with solid enough taste to look at a story and go "This is good," "This is bad, but can be better if you address these criticisms I'm giving you at the first draft stage," or even just "This doesn't sound good enough for production. Go back to the brainstorming board."

Clearly, some administration skill is also needed for any crossover like this one, but right now editorial seems only focused on scheduling rather than evaluating output.

Even "good quality" fails though. Often its not enough to just be good. Characters like Tim and Cass who's general marketability has sunk, and have nothing going on outside of comics, need more then "good" to sell these days. And then how much is guaranteed more then good going cost, and if they spend that what's the upside or potential return look like, when there are other characters they can invest that in. Its more then just quality control.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

As someone that is interested in the "core" batfamily (The robins and Barbara plus Bruce and Alfred), the N52 was my ideal status quo for the characters, everyone had their little corner of the DCU; Dick was having solo adventures in Bludhaven, Jason and Tim were out of Gotham leading their own teams, Damian was Bruce's right hand and Barbara had her own slice of Gotham to have adventures in and only came in together for the mandated yearly crossover. But once the Eternals happened, the editorial decided to shift that focus and cram everyone into Bruce's shadow leading to the current bloat and directionless status quo. All the characters have their own niche and can sustain series on their own as long they are allowed to spread their wings and stand by themselves. That is why putting Jason on TFZ and Joker have been awful ideas, they keep tying Jason back to Bruce and repeating the same plot beats over and over. In contrast, WFA has been a success because even if the premise itself is around family, they are given their own space and proper dynamics with each member instead of being laser-focused on everyone's relationship with Bruce.

...And part of the reason why being a good comic editor is its own distinct skill, and its requirements can change form time to time.

It feels like what the books need *right now* is an editor who's got better "quality control taste" than what we have right now. Just someone with solid enough taste to look at a story and go "This is good," "This is bad, but can be better if you address these criticisms I'm giving you at the first draft stage," or even just "This doesn't sound good enough for production. Go back to the brainstorming board."

Clearly, some administration skill is also needed for any crossover like this one, but right now editorial seems only focused on scheduling rather than evaluating output.

I agree 100%, the biggest bane in DC right now is the lack of competent editors, there are just not proper filters anymore that guarantee that the stories being sold are the ones that deserve to be told. They approve anything the writers put on a pitch without a care for the quality.

[Aahz]

I agree 100%, the biggest bane in DC right now is the lack of competent editors, there are just not proper filters anymore that guarantee that the stories being sold are the ones that deserve to be told. They approve anything the writers put on a pitch without a care for the quality.

I think they actually go intentionally for the most out there pitches, to somehow getr attention from the readers without really considering how that effects the characters on the long run.

[Frontier]

People said for years that they wanted the three Batgirls in a single book, which honestly wasn't a bad book. I don't see them individually selling better these days. While they have tried for years to give Tim some other development to no avail, so they swung for the fences and tried to make him more trendy and appealing for todays audience by making him bi. This is what gets me. People didn't think Tim series was going to bomb until it did, and now people are trying say of course it did. The popular thought was that Tim was a sure thing. Which i think a lot of people still believe. Tim, Jason and the Batgirls can work but its not just that simple with them anymore. They aren't just failing because of a lack of ideas.

Even "good quality" fails though. Often its not enough to just be good. Characters like Tim and Cass who's general marketability has sunk, and have nothing going on outside of comics, need more then "good" to sell these days. And then how much is guaranteed more then good going cost, and if they spend that what's the upside or potential return look like, when there are other characters they can invest that in. Its more then just quality control.

I think ultimately it comes down to character mismanagement and bad execution screwing everybody over.

[AnakinFlair]

I liked the part where Tim told each of the family members how to defeat the piece of stolen tech they were facing, because he had studied them all.

Yeah, that part was great. The rest- not so much.

As for some other points that have been made-

Both Batgirls and Tim Drake can be successful in their own books. The problem they had was their creative teams. Batgirls wasn't that bad, but for the most part the artwork turned me off hard. Tim's book had the same problem, but it was compounded by bad writing. In theory, I don't mind that they made Tim Bisexual, but it feels like that's all they wanted to do with his character. Give the Batgirls a better art team. Give Tim a detective book where he can really use his skills. Heck, he doesn't even need to be in costume- make it him as a civilian running a detective agency. Make it a more realistic take like Gotham Central.

Also, they seriously need to fire their entire editorial team, as they obviously don't know what they are doing.

[dietrich]

People said for years that they wanted the three Batgirls in a single book, which honestly wasn't a bad book. I don't see them individually selling better these days. While they have tried for years to give Tim some other development to no avail, so they swung for the fences and tried to make him more trendy and appealing for todays audience by making him bi. This is what gets me. People didn't think Tim series was going to bomb until it did, and now people are trying say of course it did. The popular thought was that Tim was a sure thing. Which i think a lot of people still believe. Tim, Jason and the Batgirls can work but its not just that simple with them anymore. They aren't just failing because of a lack of ideas.



Even "good quality" fails though. Often its not enough to just be good. Characters like Tim and Cass who's general marketability has sunk, and have nothing going on outside of comics, need more then "good" to sell these days. And then how much is guaranteed more then good going cost, and if they spend that what's the upside or potential return look like, when there are other characters they can invest that in. Its more then just quality control.

Finally. As someone who browses older threads when bored. It's funny how people on this very site were sure Megan's solo was going to work. How after UL and FS they actually embraced her as someone who gets Tim and claimed he was back to his peak characterisation after UL.

This forum has multiple 'what to do with Tim' threads filled with people declaring that all DC needed to do was Make him Robin again, restore his relationship with Dick and give him back solo. He had a very long run 15-20 years ago so it's a lock. Forgetting that a lot has changed in that time. In and out of comics.

It's funny seeing some of the same posters making so many excuses and now saying Tim Drake Robin was always going bomb.

Fans were pumped when negan teased the solo in UL 10 and they were very pumped when it was announced. The covers and variants got people really hyped. There was some disappointment when the initial previews came out but people on this thread were still excited and majority said they'd give it a try esp since it's been so long coming. Moods changed again when solicits showed the artist was changing around issue 8 getting fan excitement back up again.

Re Gotham war

What a pointless and annoying event.

The only good part was this panel



That image of Tim absolutely zipping at light speed to 'comfort' Damian is hilarious. He might as well have been shouting deebs! deebs!!

Really trying to earn that Saviour moniker he adopts in the future. lol.

[dietrich]

As someone that is interested in the "core" batfamily (The robins and Barbara plus Bruce and Alfred), the N52 was my ideal status quo for the characters, everyone had their little corner of the DCU; Dick was having solo adventures in Bludhaven, Jason and Tim were out of Gotham leading their own teams, Damian was Bruce's right hand and Barbara had her own slice of Gotham to have adventures in and only came in together for the mandated yearly crossover. But once the Eternals happened, the editorial decided to shift that focus and cram everyone into Bruce's shadow leading to the current bloat and directionless status quo. All the characters have their own niche and can sustain series on their own as long they are allowed to spread their wings and stand by themselves. That is why putting Jason on TFZ and Joker have been awful ideas, they keep tying Jason back to Bruce and repeating the same plot beats over and over. In contrast, WFA has been a success because even if the premise itself is around family, they are given their own space and proper dynamics with each member instead of being laser-focused on everyone's relationship with Bruce.



I agree 100%, the biggest bane in DC right now is the lack of competent editors, there are just not proper filters anymore that guarantee that the stories being sold are the ones that deserve to be told. They approve anything the writers put on a pitch without a care for the quality.

Agreed. The fact that we got a Tim coming out and a new solo and it didn't occur to anyone that maybe the book should delve a little deeper or say something about the process. offer anything to readers that might be struggling with/going through /gone through the same was a huge ball drop. capitalise on it while you have the peoples attention.

They just sidestepped the story and phase their target demographic deserved and needed. went straight for domestic bliss phase.

For me, that was what made it a bad series and a struggle to get through the 10 issues. Not the creative team

[skyvolt2000]

Also, they seriously need to fire their entire editorial team, as they obviously don't know what they are doing.

Why would I fire them when I got Bat books in the top 20-50 every month?

If Tim, Cass and Step at their WORST can get me 10-18 issues.

Duke can get a token spot in the DC Black History annual.

Jace as Batman got me 18 issues.

Any ongoing I toss out gets at least 2 trades.

Not to mention Catwoman, Ivy and Harley books.

Why fire them?

Optic wise this franchise "appears" to be in better shape than others at DC.

I think they actually go intentionally for the most out there pitches, to somehow get attention from the readers without really considering how that effects the characters on the long run.

Well here is the thing-if the requirements to be a DC editor are the same as the one I saw for Marvel-that MIGHT explain some things.

Marvel had this listed-

1) A knowledge of comics. What is that really saying??? Is it saying you just have to KNOW who Batman and Nightwing are and that is it? If all you read was the main Batman and Nightwing book-is that good enough to get hired? If so then that would explain this-

Duke barely gets to talk as it is in most event, he’s a modern unfortunate example of a token. I was surprised they remembered he has powers in the earlier issues of the event despite him never using them ever, he’s not fit for Gotham if an aspect of himself has to be shut off all the time.

So if the editor wanted to do a story with Batman and light powered hero-are they going to ignore Duke and get Dr. Light?
Or worst it's you know what a comic is and that is good enough.

2) Pitching your own stories. Something we saw with the last Gwenpool mini-that was editor driven not Leah Williams-who was NOT pitching her.


We also have note what we see in the final product is NOT what was pitched at first.

Priest's The Hill was suppose to be 5 issues NOT 1.

[Hulkout42]

Here is how bad this was written and edited:

1) Tim shouting orders to the team about how to disable the tech, what is the problem there? The problem is that the Scarecrow/Joker Toxin is everywhere, the batfam has gas masks on as soon as it is loose bit Tim is immune? Alll so he can drop a very stupid one liner about holding his breath?

2) The meteor is 1000 ft long and will wipe out Gotham...i know comic book science should be taken with a grain of salt, but a meteor that size is a planet killer, and low and behold the JL is nowhere around to stop it but there is JT in a itty bitty plane saving the day.

3) Catwoman's "tragic" death...this must be a world record for the shortest time a character was killed and then brought back.

4) No one admits they were wrong about Selina's plan, no it all comes down to Bruce has to be made the fool here after he has lost his everything and brought back to being a loner with limited resources.

5) The expectation that people will be dumb enough to care about the 3 Jokers story line making a return after this **** show.

Frankly it took me a while but i now know what the purpose behind this event was, DC was jealous Marvel ruined their flagship character and wanted to show them up by doing the same.

They also must have thought they could do the same thing Marvel did to Black Panther and apply it to Batman, take his love, his home and his family away from him.

[Frontier]

I think I underestimated how much Zdarsky likes Tim.

[Aahz]

Batgirls wasn't that bad, but for the most part the artwork turned me off hard.

I also found the narrator of the boom extremly annoying.

To me Batgirls came of again as some kind of attempt, to appeal to the YA market, just that they sold it as floppies on the direct market, and not as YA OGN, where it might have actually gotten in the hands of the intended audience.

And I think this goes also for the Tim Drake Robin book.

[HsssH]

Problem with "just find good creative team" argument is that DC doesn't have many of those and many other franchises are in worse shape than Batman.

[Aahz]

Problem with "just find good creative team" argument is that DC doesn't have many of those and many other franchises are in worse shape than Batman.

I think in a lot of cases allready a mediocre creative team, and an editorial that prevents them from damaging the characters or from doing other really stupid stuff would a huge step up.

And for a flagship books like Batman and events you need top level creators, if those books create a lot of excitement I think this will also increase the sales of the other books a bit.
And with about 100K copies sold per issue on Batman they should have the money to put top tier talent on these books.


And they really need to teach their writers how to properly pace a comic. The only book I can think of that does this currently well is Worlds Finest, where you have even in the longer arcs something exciting, and at least some story concluding, in every issue, with a lot of the other books there are just to many issues where nothing happens and the plot doesn't progress.

[bat1987]

I think I underestimated how much Zdarsky likes Tim.

I can totally see Zdarsky setting the stage for Tim to take over as Batman at some point in this run.