The Gotham War: Batman vs. Catwoman Crossover

[MajorHoy]

Kind of the same thing with Murderer/Fugitive.

Y'know, I wasn't regularly reading comic books when that first came out, but I did pick up a couple of issues and have never really had a burning desire to buy the tpb collections of that one.
(Despite the fact I normally like Brubaker's writing.)

[Frontier]

Y'know, I wasn't regularly reading comic books when that first came out, but I did pick up a couple of issues and have never really had a burning desire to buy the tpb collections of that one.
(Despite the fact I normally like Brubaker's writing.)

It probably depends a lot on your feelings of circa 2000's Batman but I thought it was a good story.

But that should've been the end of that kind of Batman.

[exile001]

Kind of the same thing with Murderer/Fugitive.

At least Rucka, Brubaker and Grayson spent three years building to Bruce's breakdown and executed it in a way that conceivably would push Bruce to breaking point (but not beyond).

What has Zdarky's done to build his run? Read some of Waid and Morrison's work?

[godisawesome]

Murderer/Fugitive also just has a killer main premise outside of the “Batman goes it alone!” stuff. I sort of feel like the estrangement from the family part of the story has always been it’s least popular/flat out unpopular element, while the actual frame-job, investigation, and denouement is generally very well liked.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

At least Rucka, Brubaker and Grayson spent three years building to Bruce's breakdown and executed it in a way that conceivably would push Bruce to breaking point (but not beyond).

What has Zdarky's done to build his run? Read some of Waid and Morrison's work?

That's the important thing, isn't it? having a proper buildup and coordination between writers so the story makes sense and not simply rushing everything because you want to fill a checklist while every writer does whatever they want.

For real, it seems like every writer who has taken over Batman in the past few years always write the same stories: Gotham is taken over and Bruce ahs to beat overwhelming odds, Bruce loses everything, alienates the family and hast to fight alone and a Joker story.

[Felipe Silveira]

Read he probably read, but he is writing. Problem is who didn't read it, and it's not his problem.

[MajorHoy]

Read he probably read, but he is writing. Problem is who didn't read it, and it's not his problem.

Not quite sure what you're saying here . . .

[Fergus]

And that’s partly why I think this is more about current creators and editorial being more disinterested in “finishing” (in their opinion) King’s story than hating the idea. I think that King’s story wound up being mildly but significantly more disassociated for the other books and creators than other major changes the Bat-family has had, and that only exacerbated the issues from how his run wound up truncated *and* had an ill-advised marriage fake-out when it came to the relationship. I think that of King had either not done the fakeout, or if his story had been more integrated into the other batbooks, or even if he’d just had more time (though he might have overstayed his welcome), the creators might be more inclined to keep Batman and Catwoman together.

Contrast this situation with when Damian showed up - Morrison got to finish a long run with the characters during which most of the other books got involved and other creators got a crack at Damian. That means that by the time Morrison was ready to put the toy back in its box, writers like Bryan Q. Miller, Paul Dini, Peter J. Tomasi and others had already integrated the character into their own stuff, both for their *and the audienceÂ’s proven amusement.* (I know some people were likely me and didnÂ’t like the brat until Miller wrote him in Batgirl.)

I think that creators and a decent chunk of the audience was quite simply deflated and irritated by KingÂ’s pacing of the relationship; if he hadnÂ’t done the fake-out, and creators had a period to write Selina and Bruce married when KingÂ’s run was still largely popular, I think it would be staying for a while at least.

King's story being disconnected isn't the reason why others haven't kept or finished what he started and while DC editorial and writers not caring is a factor it's not the obstacle preventing the couple from happiness together.
Using your example of Damian and Morrisons run as a contrast, as connected as Morrison's run was and as integrated as Damian had become when Morrison moved on other Batwriters ignored him.

He was removed from under the Batman editorial office. A lot of DC writers have carried on threads that Morrison started while not touching/reluctant to use Damian or continue the Batman and Robin partnership that Morrison set up.

Snyder and Zardarsky the two Bat writers who have leaned the most into Morrison's Bat run have working with another Robin/robintype.

After Damian came back to life, writers did pretty much the same thing they are doing with Bruce and Selina.

A number of writers have talked about wanting to use/requesting/pitching an idea for a Damian but were denied by DC. stating the character off limits preventing his use. This happened during rebirth and recently Infinite Frontier which is why he's not present in Gotham based titles like Nightwing, Batgirls and Batman.

All of which points to editorial interference to reset the Bat world to managements prefered narrative point.

However the real reason that BatCat can't get married is WB. WB wanted Damian. They forced DC to keep him around and keep him Robin.
King's changes and ideas were repeated rejected by WB. He kept posting everytime he arranged a meeting with WB to get approval for his many proposed 'status quo changes' but they always denied his requests.

If wB liked/was interested in BatCat together then DC wouldn't be able to break them up. They'd get the Damian Robin treatment. Officially and canonically together but never seen together or a story reveals they have a poly relationship.

[Frontier]

That's the important thing, isn't it? having a proper buildup and coordination between writers so the story makes sense and not simply rushing everything because you want to fill a checklist while every writer does whatever they want.

For real, it seems like every writer who has taken over Batman in the past few years always write the same stories: Gotham is taken over and Bruce ahs to beat overwhelming odds, Bruce loses everything, alienates the family and hast to fight alone and a Joker story.

Yeah, there's no real build up or momentum or meaningful breaks, it's just repetitive storyline after repetitive storyline.

At least the art is usually good?

[Drako]

Not quite sure what you're saying here . . .

That one got lost in translation cause of how portuguese and english are different and how we talk.
I'll spare you of the portuguese class, just ignore the first "Read".

[Vordan]

Yeah, there's no real build up or momentum or meaningful breaks, it's just repetitive storyline after repetitive storyline.

At least the art is usually good?

Both Bats and Spidey are zombie franchises at this point. Can’t grow, can’t change, can’t stop being published because they’re too popular and fund the line as a whole. So we just get rehashing of the beats: Batman driving off the Batfamily and then reconciling, Joker trying to constantly sink to lower depths, maybe Batman vs. Superman to rehash the DKR Obsession.

[thwhtGuardian]

Both Bats and Spidey are zombie franchises at this point. Can’t grow, can’t change, can’t stop being published because they’re too popular and fund the line as a whole. So we just get rehashing of the beats: Batman driving off the Batfamily and then reconciling, Joker trying to constantly sink to lower depths, maybe Batman vs. Superman to rehash the DKR Obsession.

The thing is, it doesn't have to be that way DC just has to get better writers and editors. For instance, Mark Waid's doing fantastic work with World's Finest illustrating that it's still possible to tell good stories.

[Frontier]

Yeah, I refuse to believe that you have to keep repeating the same overdone plots or stories, I just think we're stuck at a very creatively uninspired point for the main book.

[TheKryptonMan]

Both Bats and Spidey are zombie franchises at this point. Can’t grow, can’t change, can’t stop being published because they’re too popular and fund the line as a whole. So we just get rehashing of the beats: Batman driving off the Batfamily and then reconciling, Joker trying to constantly sink to lower depths, maybe Batman vs. Superman to rehash the DKR Obsession.

I've been reading comics since just before KnightFall and Death Of Superman .
The one plot that I never like is when it's Batman vs Superman . Really very very tired of that .
I know that DKR was very popular at the time it came out .
But really I think that Frank Miller is overrated when it comes to DC .
I think that outside of Year 1 for Batman , that his work is average . And his art isn't that good either.
He was better for DareDevil actually .

Actually when Rucka and Brubaker were writing Batman , I think that they were pretty good .

[Mr. White]

Both Bats and Spidey are zombie franchises at this point. Can’t grow, can’t change, can’t stop being published because they’re too popular and fund the line as a whole. So we just get rehashing of the beats: Batman driving off the Batfamily and then reconciling, Joker trying to constantly sink to lower depths, maybe Batman vs. Superman to rehash the DKR Obsession.

The thing is, it doesn't have to be that way DC just has to get better writers and editors. For instance, Mark Waid's doing fantastic work with World's Finest illustrating that it's still possible to tell good stories.

Yeah, I refuse to believe that you have to keep repeating the same overdone plots or stories, I just think we're stuck at a very creatively uninspired point for the main book.

DC is a business first and an "entertainment provider" second. Even though the provision of entertainment is its business.

It boils down to money/profits and "sure bets".

Waid doing great things on WF is 100% accurate. That said, it can be argued WF is an Elseworld's book and therefore, any risk of failure would be/have been isolated and won't affect the main book (i.e. DC's golden goose).

DC can afford to have people not purchase WF but if people stop buying Batman... then that's likely to have an adverse effect on the margins. Thus, they are less likely to take risks in the main title and more to the point, more willing to rehash old ideas/tropes because there's proof they sold. Even if that "proof" is dated.

Summary - money talks.

#myopinion


**On Spidey - that's why I find the character of Peter Parker frustrating and the least likeable of the Spider-people because Marvel has refused to let the character grow.

PP today is the same PP he was [x] decades ago - in terms of "where the character is". Just that the angle from which the character was looked at has changed a few degrees.