The Gotham War: Batman vs. Catwoman Crossover

[Frontier]

I liked the art!

The only thing fans can unanimously agree on .

[Stars & Stripes]

Ah, the rare story where Bluebird’s obscurity is to her benefit, because she’ll likely be not involved in this mess.

[marvelprince]

Good point there. Its definitely mentioned several times that Bruce is not at his peak at the moment. Their fight in next issue of Batman should be interesting, and Bruce not being himself both mentally and phisically is def gonna be a factor.
I guess Dick "wins" their sparring in Tom King's grayson run, as stated by Tom King. Tom also made an interesting convo on twitter when he ranked bat family by their martial arts skills and put dick above bruce and getting called out by Snyder and Tynion for being wrong lol.
Regardless I really think that Bruce at his peak beats Nightwing, but in this story it could go either way. That's just my opinion ofc.
Also its funny how this turned into who beats who. Goes to show how bad the story itself is.

I think it’s just natural for fans to wonder who beats who. And I know most people think it should be a draw or Bruce should win but Dick has beat him, Deathstroke handily who regularly challenges Batman and has just about every advantage. Him with a team of Robins should be something Batman fears not just runs through. Again, Dick has been doing this since he was a child.

This goes onto my larger issue with Nightwing at DC. On one hand they acknowledge his history and popularity and will put him alongside Bruce but when they want to do a Bruce against his family story he has to job and lose to him.

[regg215]

Gotta say this was better than I thought it would be.The batfamily actually believing that Bruce would be ok with letting crimes happen is just stupid though. I mean why on earth would the guy who's rich parents were gunned down in front of him, have a problem with just letting crimes happen to rich people? Gee I wonder why he is upset with letting some crimes just happen?

However, honestly I do think the characterization of the batfamily was on point with how they have been in the past years:

Blame bruce for everything including the rain in gotham- check
Have unrealistic expectations that batman will display moral flexibility against crimes- check
take all his tech, resources and guidance over the years for granted and straight up attack him- check

I used to love the batfamily but they became a self righteous group of hypocrites, who basically blame bruce for training them and act like he forced them into crime fighting when, all of them could simply just quit if that was the case. Instead they use his money, training, symbol and resources and take him for granted while blaming him for everything that goes wrong in their lives. if this story gets them taken out of bruce's books for a long while then I am all for it. Let Nightwing, Barbara, Tim and all the rest have their moral high horse of crime is ok if it happens to the right people in bludhaven or something like that and in their own books.

[Mantis-Ray]

Yeeesh this is such a bad part of this story



The fact that the Batfam barring Bruce and Damian, are willing to compromise people's lives just to keep continuing with this is pretty pathetic

[CPSparkles]

Good point there. Its definitely mentioned several times that Bruce is not at his peak at the moment. Their fight in next issue of Batman should be interesting, and Bruce not being himself both mentally and phisically is def gonna be a factor.
I guess Dick "wins" their sparring in Tom King's grayson run, as stated by Tom King. Tom also made an interesting convo on twitter when he ranked bat family by their martial arts skills and put dick above bruce and getting called out by Snyder and Tynion for being wrong lol.
Regardless I really think that Bruce at his peak beats Nightwing, but in this story it could go either way. That's just my opinion ofc.
Also its funny how this turned into who beats who. Goes to show how bad the story itself is.

Didn't see Snyder's response [didn't even know he chimed in] but Tynion didn't disagree with King's rankings or Dick beating Bruce. He just added that Tim was the best detective so he'd win if the quest was investigation/Brains.

Which...... okay, but is incorrect since Dick Grayson has and still is referred to as the 2nd Greatest Detective.
Seeley also agreed. Pretty much all the Rebirth bat writers agreed with the list with lobdell saying no comment.

I don't mind Dick and Cass being able to best Bruce. Jason also should give him a tough time.

Bruce is getting on and has had far too many broken bones and injuries to be performing at the rate he does.

[Anthony W]

Picturing Helena sitting in her apartment...her phone lights up with a dozen messages from the Bat-family telling her what's happening now between Bruce and Selina. She puts the phone down and says, "Nope. Not pulling the pin on that grenade" and goes about her day.

Then she goes to Baskin Robbins.

[phonogram12]

Depends on what you count as a "success," because the elephant in the room is that it's ultimately not really solving the problem of crimes being committed in the first place.

You mean crimes committed by people other than the Bat Family?

For the sake of the story working and so they don't immediately call Selina out on her BS, yeah, but it doesn't really feel true to the characters.

I can see a few of them seeing it from Selina's pov. Stephanie, Cass, Jason (obviously), and even Dick. As for Damien, I for one would be worried about whether or not I actually am on the right side of the debate if the spoiled privileged assassin backs my play.

Everyone always talks about it that way and negates all the good he's done or that he's not the only one who believes in the cause and that Gotham is a self-perpetrating criminal cesspool for story reasons. I don't see this suddenly ending all the real problems from Gotham because ultimately the Supervillains will find ways to act without henchmen like we're already seeing and the goons inevitably are going to goon.

I'm not saying he hasn't done any good. To say otherwise would be ridiculous. What I am saying is he didn't grow up with the kind of poverty Selina has and understand the reasons people turn to crime like she does. I'm not talking about guys like Bane or Joker. I'm talking about the guy just trying to feed his kid and get treatment for his sick wife.

No, it was one of the people they were robbing! Because this was supposedly safer and less risky!

He literally did not fire the first (or any) shot. He wasn't even armed.

[Frontier]

Yeeesh this is such a bad part of this story



The fact that the Batfam barring Bruce and Damian, are willing to compromise people's lives just to keep continuing with this is pretty pathetic

Yeah, this should've been the last straw for most of them like it was for Batman.

You mean crimes committed by people other than the Bat Family?

I mean, if you really have a thing against vigilante's, I guess .

I can see a few of them seeing it from Selina's pov. Stephanie, Cass, Jason (obviously), and even Dick. As for Damien, I for one would be worried about whether or not I actually am on the right side of the debate if the spoiled privileged assassin backs my play.

A lot of people have pointed out why Jason wouldn't actually go along with this plan. He's not being written well here.

Cass would probably see Bruce's points unless Babs told her otherwise (which might've been what happened) but I don't think Babs would agree with this. Dick might be more open to it up until somebody died in the middle of a robbery.

Damian is clinical and practical. He's definitely very opinionated but I think he's talking sense here.

I'm not saying he hasn't done any good. To say otherwise would be ridiculous. What I am saying is he didn't grow up with the kind of poverty Selina has and understand the reasons people turn to crime like she does. I'm not talking about guys like Bane or Joker. I'm talking about the guy just trying to feed his kid and get treatment for his sick wife.

But he does understand that. He's tried to make an impact in that as Bruce Wayne. He knew exactly about Roland Garner's circumstances, which is why it hit him so hard that this botched robbery deprived a girl of her father.

He literally did not fire the first (or any) shot. He wasn't even armed.

But he was breaking into someone's home to rob them. She overreacted but under the circumstances it's not completely unreasonable, and it shows the issue with thinking turning people into thieves will solve anything.

[Morgoth]

You know, if Dick wasn't a billionaire now (or he's a millionaire, correct me if I'm wrong), it would be extremely funny to look at this conflict from the point of view of the narrative about confrontation between rich and poor, which Zdarsky and Howard try to push through Selina point of view.
In the sense that, on the one hand, insanely rich Bruce and Damian, and on the other, the rest of Bat-Fam.

[Felipe Silveira]

Everyone in Batfam is rich, none of them even care about work. Bruce kept them that way.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

You know, if Dick wasn't a billionaire now (or he's a millionaire, correct me if I'm wrong), it would be extremely funny to look at this conflict from the point of view of the narrative about confrontation between rich and poor, which Zdarsky and Howard try to push through Selina point of view.
In the sense that, on the one hand, insanely rich Bruce and Damian, and on the other, the rest of Bat-Fam.

Bruce is no longer a millionaire because you know, Selina robbed him and gave his assets to Lucius Fox.

Everyone in Batfam is rich, none of them even care about work. Bruce kept them that way.

Jason has been consistently shown as getting funding himself through robbing crime lords or through his brief stint as a soldier of fortune.

[Frontier]

Everyone in Batfam is rich, none of them even care about work. Bruce kept them that way.

Reminds me of this infamous scene:

[bat1987]

Didn't see Snyder's response [didn't even know he chimed in] but Tynion didn't disagree with King's rankings or Dick beating Bruce. He just added that Tim was the best detective so he'd win if the quest was investigation/Brains.

Which...... okay, but is incorrect since Dick Grayson has and still is referred to as the 2nd Greatest Detective.
Seeley also agreed. Pretty much all the Rebirth bat writers agreed with the list with lobdell saying no comment.

I don't mind Dick and Cass being able to best Bruce. Jason also should give him a tough time.

Bruce is getting on and has had far too many broken bones and injuries to be performing at the rate he does.

Cant find Snyder's response (I'm positive he chimed in and disagreed with tom's list, or at least with his placing of bruce and dick). Found Tynion's though
Screenshot_20230906_205204_Chrome.jpg

[phonogram12]

I mean, if you really have a thing against vigilante's, I guess .

I mean, if we're seriously treating all crimes as equal, absolutely.

A lot of people have pointed out why Jason wouldn't actually go along with this plan. He's not being written well here.

Cass would probably see Bruce's points unless Babs told her otherwise (which might've been what happened) but I don't think Babs would agree with this. Dick might be more open to it up until somebody died in the middle of a robbery.

As stated elsewhere, Babs has had a problem beating up criminals over petty theft. It kinda does seem like overkill. As for Cass, she literally murdered somebody once upon a time. If it's even across the board...

Damian is clinical and practical. He's definitely very opinionated but I think he's talking sense here.

Again, I'd really question the side that you're taking if Damien is on it.

But he does understand that. He's tried to make an impact in that as Bruce Wayne. He knew exactly about Roland Garner's circumstances, which is why it hit him so hard that this botched robbery deprived a girl of her father.

Clearly, the system has failed Roland and man, many other people. It's rather stubborn of Bruce to refuses to see that.

But he was breaking into someone's home to rob them. She overreacted but under the circumstances it's not completely unreasonable, and it shows the issue with thinking turning people into thieves will solve anything.

I don't imagine that Selina was naïve enough to tell the criminals that are working with her that this is an absolutely no risk venture. You take the steps to minimize the risk as much as you can, but nothing is 100%. Does it make what happened right? Absolutely not. But it's the same kind of risk you take being a rooftop vigilante, too.