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  1. #46
    Astonishing Member Anthony W's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Why do beams shoot out Cyclops eyes. Come on now.
    Comics may be fantasy, but the catch is on some level readers want their fantasy to be believable as well. If Gotham is a hellscape all the time then what is the point?

    Marvel has this exact same problem with Hell's Kitchen. It has become nothing more than a wannabe Gotham at this point, which is hilarious because it's a NEIGHBORHOOD. All of this over one neighborhood?!
    Last edited by Anthony W; 05-28-2023 at 07:20 AM.
    "The Marvel EIC Chair has a certain curse that goes along with it: it tends to drive people insane, and ultimately, out of the business altogether. It is the notorious last stop for many staffers, as once you've sat in The Big Chair, your pariah status is usually locked in." Christopher Priest

  2. #47
    ♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦♦ Godlike13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Comics may be fantasy, but the catch is on some level readers want their fantasy to be believable as well. If Gotham is a hellscape all the time then what is the point?

    Marvel has this exact same problem with Hell's Kitchen. It has become nothing more than a wannabe Gotham at this point.
    Not really. It’s not a problem that there is a lot of crime in a fictional city created for a fictional man in a bat suit to fight crime in. That’s its point.

    You might like your fantasy to be believable to you, but fantasy by the very idea of it does not have to be believable. Gotham’s realism is an illusion. There to set the scene, not define it by what real people would do in a real city. Because again, Gotham is not real.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 05-28-2023 at 08:00 AM.

  3. #48
    Extraordinary Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Not really. Gotham is not real. It’s not a problem that there is a lot of crime in a fictional city created for a fictional man in a bat suit to fight crime in. That’s its point.

    You might like your fantasy to be believable to you, but fantasy by the very idea of it does not have to be believable. Gotham’s realism is an illusion. There to set the scene, not define it by what real people would do in a real city. Because again, Gotham is not real.
    It's not that there is a lot of crime it's that half the city get's destroyed every other even year or some crazy villain kills 100's of people every odd year. That's the fantasy breaker, writers being allowed to do stupid event after stupid event trying to be more violent and have larger stakes than the last.
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  4. #49
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anthony W View Post
    Why does anyone live in Gotham?

    Is it cheap? Is that it? By now it must be the cheapest city to live in the DC Universe.

    I can only imagine the discussions people have before moving there...

    Husband: Hey what if I told you that their was a place we could move to that was so cheap we could stop treating the Labrador retrievers like a kids and actually have real ones?

    Wife: Cleveland?

    Husband: Uhhh...no. What if I told you that this place would also allow you to quit your job and we would still be able to move out of this apartment and live in the suburbs in a house with five rooms and a two car garage!?

    Wife: I would think you're lying.

    Husband: It's...not Detroit.

    Wife: I didn't say Detroit. What is the catch?!

    Husband: ((whispers)) It's Gotham.

    Wife: What?

    Husband Sigh...It's Gotham.

    Wife: Oh my God! That city where that guy who dresses as a clown keeps killing people and getting away with it!?

    Husband: Oh come on! He doesn't get away with it! They always catch him....they just can't keep him behind bars! Besides you have a better chance of being struck by lighting than being killed by that guy.

    Wife: No.

    Husband: C'mon!
    But the tax credits!

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    It's not that there is a lot of crime it's that half the city get's destroyed every other even year or some crazy villain kills 100's of people every odd year. That's the fantasy breaker, writers being allowed to do stupid event after stupid event trying to be more violent and have larger stakes than the last.
    They can do anything they want to it. It’s fantasy. The scale of the crimes make no difference. You guys are picking and choosing what should and shouldn’t seem real, but none of it is actually real. That’s the show.
    You might be tired of it as readers, but Gotham is existing how it was created to exist. Writers keep writing Gotham being blow up and it’s made up people being killed because generally readers tend to like reading about Gotham being blow up and it’s made up people being killed.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 05-28-2023 at 08:26 AM.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    But the tax credits!
    And the schools!

    (I seriously want some joke about Gotham public schooling being freakishly advanced, with evidence being the freakish number of mad scientists who also have to have extremely esoteric literary knowledge.)
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  7. #52
    Extraordinary Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    They can do anything they want to it. That’s fantasy. The scale of the crimes are no different. You guy are picking and choosing what should and shouldn’t seem real, but none of it is actually real. You might be tired of it as readers, but Gotham is existing how it was created to exist. Writers keep writing Gotham being blow up and it’s made up people being killed because generally readers like reading about Gotham being blow up and it’s made up people being killed.
    Scale definitely matters, and repetition definitely compounds that.

    And I definitely dispute that readers like the endless edgelord escalation.
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  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    Scale definitely matters, and repetition definitely compounds that.

    And I definitely dispute that readers like the endless edgelord escalation.
    It might matter in the sense that the stories become trite or boring, or that readers have become apathetic to it, but it doesn’t break any fundamental rules of its fantasy.

    And supply and demand, love them or hate them events sell.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 05-28-2023 at 08:40 AM.

  9. #54
    Extraordinary Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    It might matter in the sense that the stories become trite or boring, or that readers have become apathetic to it, but it doesn’t break any fundamental rules of its fantasy.

    And supply and demand, love them or hate them events sell.
    If it makes the stories boring and readers apathetic then yes it has broken the fantasy...that's pretty basic stuff, if the story has made its readers stop believing(which is what apathy is) then it's broken.

    And the fact that crappy events sell doesn't mean there is value to defending them if they are bad.
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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    If it makes the stories boring and readers apathetic then yes it has broken the fantasy...that's pretty basic stuff, if the story has made its readers stop believing(which is what apathy is) then it's broken.

    And the fact that crappy events sell doesn't mean there is value to defending them if they are bad.
    Not caring is an different thing then not being able to accept the fantasy. The stories aren’t trying to make readers believe in Batman or Gotham. Batman isn’t Santa Clause. The stories sell a fantasy for readers entertainment. Things might bore you that you no longer care, but questioning the validity of how many time they blow up their fake city is an entirely different thing.

    The fact that events sell means readers are interested by them.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 05-28-2023 at 09:34 AM.

  11. #56
    Extraordinary Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    Not caring is an different thing then not being able to accept the fantasy. The stories aren’t trying to make readers believe in Batman or Gotham. Batman isn’t Santa Clause. The stories sell a fantasy for readers entertainment. Things might bore you that you no longer care, but questioning the validity of how many time they blow up their fake city is an entirely different thing.

    The fact that events sell means readers are interested by them.
    There is belief, not in the "I think this is real" kind of thing but in the "I buy into the story being told" and with out that buy in the fantasy is broken. And the constant edgelord escalation is what causes people not to buy in, so yeah it is one and the same.

    And sales don't equal quality or interest. Worlds Finest for instance is head and shoulders above the writing in Batman, Detective or Dark Crisis but those books sold more because of habitual buying and collectors mentality.
    Last edited by thwhtGuardian; 05-28-2023 at 09:42 AM.
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  12. #57
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan2099 View Post
    Nothing about this suggests "EVENT!" to me. This seems to just be a Batman vs Catwoman story. I'm missing what's so special about this one.
    It has "WAR" in the title.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by thwhtGuardian View Post
    There is belief, not in the "I think this is real" kind of thing but in the "I buy into the story being told" and with out that buy in the fantasy is broken. And the constant edgelord escalation is what causes people not to buy in, so yeah it is one and the same.

    And sales don't equal quality or interest. Worlds Finest for instance is head and shoulders above the writing in Batman, Detective or Dark Crisis but those books sold more because of habitual buying and collectors mentality.
    That’s not how fantasy works. Readers don’t get to pick and choose what is and isn’t fantasy in a fantasy world. Batman comics ask readers to buy into their make-believe for entertainment. Not to actually believe their stories. The constant edgelord escalation, like it or not, has actually been proven to cause more readers to literally buy in.
    Last edited by Godlike13; 05-28-2023 at 10:27 AM.

  14. #59
    Extraordinary Member thwhtGuardian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Godlike13 View Post
    That’s not how fantasy works. Readers don’t get to pick and choose what is and isn’t fantasy in a fantasy world. Batman comics ask readers to buy into their make-believe for entertainment. Not to actually believe their stories. The constant edgelord escalation, like it or not, has actually been proven to cause more readers to literally buy in.
    It's how storytelling works, if the writer can't convince a reader to buy in and believe and care about what is going on then they have broken or in some cases entirely failed to even build a fantasy for the readers to get lost in.

    And buying a book isn't the same as buying into a story.
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  15. #60
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    I mean, I think there's something to be said for how repetitive the major Bat-storylines have been in the past few years and the diminishing return in quality and enjoyment as a result.

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