The Gotham War: Batman vs. Catwoman Crossover

[Felipe Silveira]

Dick "admitting" that Tim is a better detective than him............wrong
Nightwing 151 (2009) 003.jpg

[Bat-Meal]

Considering that she's Bruce's cousin, and met when they were kids from The Detective Comics, I have a hunch that while she does agree with Selina, Kate would not take her side, and directly confront Bruce like the other Batmembers. However, she may question him about his mission, and his morals before she leaves for The Outsiders.

I thought that was already done when she shot Clayface and started to work with her dad.

DC has a bad habit of repeating the same kind of storyline. Constantly. Like for Jason, its almost always going against Bruce.

I wonder if she'll tell Bruce to get therapy again.

[Konja7]

Dick "admitting" that Tim is a better detective than him............wrong
Nightwing 151 (2009) 003.jpg

Dick has already said he's the best detective after Batman in City Boy #4 this week.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

Putting those detective skills to good use to verify Selina's claims and Bruce's state would've helped to avoid needless conflict but we all know they don't care about that.

[Fergus]

Dick is no slouch but he has admitted Tim is better than him as a detective

Dick Grayson is in canon the World's 2nd greatest Detective. Dick says a lot of stuff when he's trying to make his bro's feel/look good. Doesn't mean it's true or that evidence from the comics/feats don't flat out show that he's objectively wrong.

Also this habit of having characters tell us how much better than them Tim is is just poor, cheap and disrespectful.

I've noticed this only happens with Tim. Writers don't tell us how Jason or Dick is the best/smartest Robin and might one day be better than Batman.

Writers don't go out of their way to have Bruce oe which ever character thinking how much better Damian is in comparison to the others Robins.

Show me and let me figure out how good he is. Don't have ever character that walks by parrot it.
It's such a hack move and readers can recognise over compensation when they see it.

I really hate that they make Dick say rubbish like that.

[Kyrielle]

Eh, the inciting conflict of this whole thing is basically a thought experiment a la the Trolley Problem. People vs property. Part of the premise is that people who are *already committing violent crimes* (assault at the minimum) are being diverted into non-violent property crimes. Resulting in a insanely massive drop in violent crime (nearly 75%), reducing death and injury. And yes, the premise is extreme and wildly unrealistic, but this is also a book that had a guy dressed as a bat who survived a fall from outer space by wearing his underwear on his face. So.

FWIW - I don't even mind that, it's just a reminder to myself that in the grand scheme of things, the current premise isn't *entirely* crazy pants. Is it a long term solution? Heck no. How do you enforce the no violence rule? No idea. What percentage of program graduates backslide back into violence or pull off one heist, retire and ride off into the sunset? Got me. Is thieving still a risky crime that may result in the un-armed thief being injured or killed? Sho'nuff.

But is it *really* more dangerous than working for Prof. Pyg?

Ultimately, I don't think it even matters since it's just being used to set up the core conflict: Batman's now black & white, zero policy on crime* (Zur) vs the bat family, who have all internalized Bruce's previous (somewhat) more nuanced and proportional policy to some extent. "Somewhat" because Bruce has always been on the more rigid end of the spectrum, but he's always had his empathy to soften the edges. It's probably not a coincidence that Damian who seems to be back in his empathy-challenged mode is currently on Team Zur.

*At least crimes that /he's/ not committing.

And, yeah, it's Team Zur. At this point, I'm thinking it's Bruce who is in his mental cage and Zur is on the outside roaming free. There is a world of difference between reading a summary of Batman 137 and reading the comic. The art is definitely carrying a lot of the story. Jimenez is an incredibly dynamic artist, but he's also deliberately drawing a Batman who is - to use a technical term - out of his freakin' gourd.

Again, why did Bruce develop this psychopath as a backup personality in case he was mentally compromised? How is *this guy* any better? I don't understand.

As for Team Fam, I think they are generally in character. I mean, after all these years and all these stories, you can find supporting material for almost anything. Does Babs being more hardline when it comes to what she deems right and wrong feel right, but she's also the one who recently manufactured evidence to send someone to jail and used to "appropriate" federal funds pretty regularly in the past. Tim being about the numbers and willing to see how it plays out also seems right. Dick being all "WTF Bruce?" checks out. Steph, Cass & Duke not really having much to do other than provide support and maybe carry some exposition? Unfortunately, not an uncommon occurrence. *sigh*

I have no idea what they are doing with Jason, which is probably by design.

As for the whole "Eat the Rich" thing, I guess at least they are the victims this time around. Usually they are the flat out, terrible, no-good, irredeemable villains. ::waves at the Court of Owls and all the high rent apartment complexes that inevitably bar the doors to keep out the hoi polloi:: Class has always been a thing in the bat books but it always seems to be used as shorthand vs really grappling with it in any real way. I do think there is an interesting story comparing/contrasting Batman's vigilanteism as reaction to Gotham criminal system and Catwoman's version of a job-training program as reaction to Gotham's corrupt urban economic system. It's not THIS story, but it would be an interesting one.

Which brings me to "MY PARENTS WERE RICH!" This is true. But let's say we are going to accept the premise that this program indeed has reduced violent crime nearly 75%. If this program was in place back in the day, odds are high that Martha and Thomas Wayne wouldn't have been robbed at gunpoint/murdered. They'd likely still be alive. Now, odds are *ALSO* high that while they were out at the movies, someone would have stolen a buttload of cash and jewelry from the manor. Now, let's be real, no crime at all would be better - full stop. But between his parents being violently mugged and murdered vs someone cleaning out the family safe, I genuinely believe Bruce would choose the latter, all day every day.

Anyway, violent crime = very bad, non-violent crime = moderately better-ish, no crime = best.

[Fergus]

I


Huh. I don't think rich people need you defending them. They're rich enough to do that for themselves.

When did it become okay to feel justified to deem a certain demographic as not worth any consideration or not needing to call out negative stereotyping?

Rich people are still people

Not to mention, this is Batman. Majority of what we batman fans do on this forum is defend a rich man. We are literally doing it right now.

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

At least I can find solace in the fact this "event" is being lambasted everywhere.

[Bat-Meal]

I have no idea what they are doing with Jason, which is probably by design.

My best guess is that it's been decided by editorial that he should go back to being a villain, or an anti-hero that separated from the rest of the bats. I mean, Batman and Robin are against the rest of the Bat-Kids, but Jason is the only one so far to directly join Selina. To top it off he attacked Bruce and antagonised him, and by doing so caused several of the other Bat-Kids into a direct confrontation with their father-figure, when Dick's initial plan was just to talk to Bruce.

After this event the Bat-Family (besides Damian) is estranged from Bruce, but mostly not from each other as far as we know. Dick and Babs will still be a team in Nightwing, and Kate and Luke in Outsiders, plus there's no reason to believe Cass won't still be on good terms with the others. Not sure what Jason's status will be after this though.

[Morgoth]

The same as usual.
Jason has the same problem as Tim - DC doesn't know, what to do with him, and writers forbidden to do any radical moves for him, like becoming a villain, going full anti-hero route, retire him, move forward from his trauma, etc. There's no reason to believe it's going to change after that.

[Konja7]

When did it become okay to feel justified to deem a certain demographic as not worth any consideration or not needing to call out negative stereotyping?

Rich people are still people

Not to mention, this is Batman. Majority of what we batman fans do on this forum is defend a rich man. We are literally doing it right now.

To be fair, I think it's the first time I see so many people defending Batman in this forum.

It's been a lot more common to see people complaining about the way Batman treats the Batfamily members.

I guess this change really shows the reception of this event.

[failo.legendkiller]

How useless is this "who is the smarter Robin" discussion?

I don't know if I'm more fed up with the Multiverse or Zur-En-Arrh, it's a big fight.

I had much better expectations for Zdarsky's run. The first part has been a rollercoaster to me, solid issue alternated to a laughable one.
This Gotham War doesn't seem to improve the situation. Anyway I'll wait to definetly judge.

[Fergus]

How useless is this "who is the smarter Robin" discussion?

Utterly and yet DC writers can't help but keep telling us who they'd like us to believe is.

[Fergus]

To be fair, I think it's the first time I see so many people defending Batman in this forum.

It's been a lot more common to see people complaining about the way Batman treats the Batfamily members.

I guess this change really shows the reception of this event.

Depends on the story and what's he's done to the Family in that story. but usually we defend him and sympathise with him.

+ this site has more vocal bat fam posters so at times they drown other voices.

[Frontier]

Eh, the inciting conflict of this whole thing is basically a thought experiment a la the Trolley Problem. People vs property. Part of the premise is that people who are *already committing violent crimes* (assault at the minimum) are being diverted into non-violent property crimes. Resulting in a insanely massive drop in violent crime (nearly 75%), reducing death and injury. And yes, the premise is extreme and wildly unrealistic, but this is also a book that had a guy dressed as a bat who survived a fall from outer space by wearing his underwear on his face. So.

FWIW - I don't even mind that, it's just a reminder to myself that in the grand scheme of things, the current premise isn't *entirely* crazy pants. Is it a long term solution? Heck no. How do you enforce the no violence rule? No idea. What percentage of program graduates backslide back into violence or pull off one heist, retire and ride off into the sunset? Got me. Is thieving still a risky crime that may result in the un-armed thief being injured or killed? Sho'nuff.

But is it *really* more dangerous than working for Prof. Pyg?

Ultimately, I don't think it even matters since it's just being used to set up the core conflict: Batman's now black & white, zero policy on crime* (Zur) vs the bat family, who have all internalized Bruce's previous (somewhat) more nuanced and proportional policy to some extent. "Somewhat" because Bruce has always been on the more rigid end of the spectrum, but he's always had his empathy to soften the edges. It's probably not a coincidence that Damian who seems to be back in his empathy-challenged mode is currently on Team Zur.

*At least crimes that /he's/ not committing.

And, yeah, it's Team Zur. At this point, I'm thinking it's Bruce who is in his mental cage and Zur is on the outside roaming free. There is a world of difference between reading a summary of Batman 137 and reading the comic. The art is definitely carrying a lot of the story. Jimenez is an incredibly dynamic artist, but he's also deliberately drawing a Batman who is - to use a technical term - out of his freakin' gourd.

Again, why did Bruce develop this psychopath as a backup personality in case he was mentally compromised? How is *this guy* any better? I don't understand.

As for Team Fam, I think they are generally in character. I mean, after all these years and all these stories, you can find supporting material for almost anything. Does Babs being more hardline when it comes to what she deems right and wrong feel right, but she's also the one who recently manufactured evidence to send someone to jail and used to "appropriate" federal funds pretty regularly in the past. Tim being about the numbers and willing to see how it plays out also seems right. Dick being all "WTF Bruce?" checks out. Steph, Cass & Duke not really having much to do other than provide support and maybe carry some exposition? Unfortunately, not an uncommon occurrence. *sigh*

I have no idea what they are doing with Jason, which is probably by design.

As for the whole "Eat the Rich" thing, I guess at least they are the victims this time around. Usually they are the flat out, terrible, no-good, irredeemable villains. ::waves at the Court of Owls and all the high rent apartment complexes that inevitably bar the doors to keep out the hoi polloi:: Class has always been a thing in the bat books but it always seems to be used as shorthand vs really grappling with it in any real way. I do think there is an interesting story comparing/contrasting Batman's vigilanteism as reaction to Gotham criminal system and Catwoman's version of a job-training program as reaction to Gotham's corrupt urban economic system. It's not THIS story, but it would be an interesting one.

Which brings me to "MY PARENTS WERE RICH!" This is true. But let's say we are going to accept the premise that this program indeed has reduced violent crime nearly 75%. If this program was in place back in the day, odds are high that Martha and Thomas Wayne wouldn't have been robbed at gunpoint/murdered. They'd likely still be alive. Now, odds are *ALSO* high that while they were out at the movies, someone would have stolen a buttload of cash and jewelry from the manor. Now, let's be real, no crime at all would be better - full stop. But between his parents being violently mugged and murdered vs someone cleaning out the family safe, I genuinely believe Bruce would choose the latter, all day every day.

Anyway, violent crime = very bad, non-violent crime = moderately better-ish, no crime = best.

I don't think they need to go too hard on burglars per se but just the idea of them in general letting people commit crimes just bothers me.