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  1. #781
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venomsaurus View Post
    Ah yes, the good ol' "You shouldn't be allowed to discuss things you don't like because that means it's getting more coverage" argument.

    Because famously, just ignoring something bad makes it go away and fixes everything. We shouldn't try and address and give constructive criticism for things that bother us. Nope. Need to just keep our mouths shut and not say a thing.

    Cool story, bro.
    Yeah, because vitriolic ad hominem attacks on other fans really makes your criticisms sound constructive.

    Did I say you shouldn't be allowed to do anything? No, I did not. Carry on if that's your thing. I pointed out that from Marvel's perspective this dialogue you're having is 100% them winning. You aren't accomplishing anything but proving to them that if they tell these divisive and derisive stories it energizes readers. Energized readers drive sales.

    You're doing the very opposite of what you claim to want. You aren't changing anything. You aren't sending any message beyond "this puts eyeballs on our book." Which is exactly the point of the story in the first place.


    You want change? Put your money where your mouth is. Stop buying, stop reading. Stop feeding the trolls. Because Marvel editorial has all of you pegged. You'll hate read and rant online and all it does is bring more eyes on their book. You think they care about negative press? If that press leads to sold copies it is an absolute win for them. People WILL read this just to see what the fuss is about. And Marvel WILL keep doing this, because it works.

  2. #782
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Yeah, because vitriolic ad hominem attacks on other fans really makes your criticisms sound constructive.

    Did I say you shouldn't be allowed to do anything? No, I did not. Carry on if that's your thing. I pointed out that from Marvel's perspective this dialogue you're having is 100% them winning. You aren't accomplishing anything but proving to them that if they tell these divisive and derisive stories it energizes readers. Energized readers drive sales.

    You're doing the very opposite of what you claim to want. You aren't changing anything. You aren't sending any message beyond "this puts eyeballs on our book." Which is exactly the point of the story in the first place.


    You want change? Put your money where your mouth is. Stop buying, stop reading. Stop feeding the trolls. Because Marvel editorial has all of you pegged. You'll hate read and rant online and all it does is bring more eyes on their book. You think they care about negative press? If that press leads to sold copies it is an absolute win for them. People WILL read this just to see what the fuss is about. And Marvel WILL keep doing this, because it works.
    You are literally saying that by complaining, I'm giving them what they want, therefore I shouldn't complain. That this is all just feeding them. I agree they want engagement, but no one wants nothing but hate. Even big corporations know that it's better to have people happy with your work than hating on it. This isn't an ad campaign that pisses people off for a month and then gets people talking about your product virally. This is a long form story in one of the most popular and beloved super hero comics of all time. One that is getting negative press constantly and being decried as the worst run of the series vocally by many fans. That means something.

    I seriously doubt Zeb Wells set out with this run to piss everyone off. Is he ragebaiting a ton? Sure. But no one wants the world mad at them. He's made it pretty clear he's not happy with how everyone hates his run. So by making my displeasure clear, I'm conveying my frustration in a public space that doesn't hurt anyone.

    Also not buying the book, never have been. At most I read a free digital copy my friend gives me since he reads it. Up until recently I was just keeping tabs on it via articles/scans daily. I've not supported this book at all. So your argument goes down the drain there. I am still going to complain about a story I don't like. I am not supporting it with one cent.
    Last edited by Venomsaurus; 06-01-2023 at 08:00 PM.

  3. #783
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garlador View Post
    Maybe they shouldn’t have used Ms. Marvel to CELEBRATE AAPI month then.

    It’s just bad optics, like killing Black Panther or Storm in a random issue of Hulk during Black History Month.

    Or maybe, just maybe, there was no need to kill her AT ALL.
    When did we start caring about AAPI heritage month?

  4. #784
    Fantastic Member Man-Thing's Avatar
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    ...you for real right now?

  5. #785
    Fantastic Member Spidey_Legend's Avatar
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    Well depends. I don't know exactly what is done AAPI heritage month. Here in Argentina (for example) we don't have any of that of any ethnicity except 12 of October and that's more as a historic moment than for someone in particular.

  6. #786
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwing96 View Post
    Hi, first time poster here.

    I think the big issue for many fans is that their relationship is not explicitly defined. I know ppl can say you need to read subtext but the fact that so many ppl across this platform and reddit are arguing what Paul and MJ are is b/c its not clearly defined which leaves ample room for debate (which I suspect is done on purpose). Also I refuse to believe the idea that everyone who can't read subtext is a moron so I really do blame the writing here. Perhaps Zeb never meant to delve further than he has in terms of showing their relationship on page but a single page where MJ confirms her feelings one way or the other would resolve the issue (and could have been done in this issue's flashback). I agree with the poster who said she chose to get to know Paul and came to trust him and built a tight bond that formed from trying to survive in the wilderness together. I can see how two ppl would grow close from that on top of raising two children together, essentially becoming their adopted parents. Some ppl have implied the scene where MJ and Paul are in the bedroom and there is a single bed to imply a romantic relation ship but given today's flashback it could just be a reference tied to that confession of who Paul really is and nothing more. I also saw someone pointing out that MJ chose to deny Peter a kiss but its possible that she denied kissing Peter b/c so much has changed in those 4 years that she is now committed to her family, so it isn't necessarily out of romantic love for Paul but because her life circumstances has changed so much. I mean its possible she is in love with Paul. I would argue odds are 50/50. Most of the supporting evidence for PaulxMJ could come strictly from ASM #25 but maybe also from the MJ/Black Cat mini where she says she doesn't care about him dating Felicia. But it could also not be the case based on text from ASM #4 where MJ seems to want to tell Peter something while at Oscorp but more importantly in ASM #9 where when Peter asks if she won't talk to him b/c she loves Paul so much but instead of confirming those feelings she shouts back its b/c of responsibility (maybe she meant towards her new family that she doesn't want to break up).

    Idk what the real answer is and I suspect that since Zeb plans to write 50 issues for his run, that the Paul and MJ relationship will actually be explored further towards the second half of his run as a B plot. What this arc did answer is why Peter and MJ are not together but that still leaves the question of what do they mean to each other in the present with MJ seemingly moved on and Peter trying to move on. Btw I feel terrible for Felicia as its clear she truly cares for Peter and accepts that he still carries a torch for MJ but chooses to accept that anyways. She is awesome. Who knows maybe at the end of this run both Peter and MJ will be drawn to each other again and it will turn into a story of how these two star crossed lovers will never stop loving each other. I'm speculating pretty hard right now. Anyways I see so much discourse on PeterxMJ and PaulxMJ and ppl either arguing about the relationship status or on how this status quo was created so I wanted to add my two cents. I really do feel if the writing was more clear, at least one of these two arguments would be put to rest but I suspect stirring up drama is a good way to keep fans engaged and buying their product (i.e. the ASM comic) as they know a majority of fans are invested in PeterxMJ.

    Great post. I hope to see you here frequently.

  7. #787
    Mighty Member Garlador's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by clonegeek View Post
    When did we start caring about AAPI heritage month?
    ... Seriously? What do YOU think my heritage is? Go on. Take a guess.

  8. #788
    Mighty Member Brian B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xenon View Post
    …I don't think this is as bad as Sins Past was when canon, but for me it's pretty close… It just doesn't respect what MJ has been shown to be life (stubborn, determined or want in her life. And I think because of the way she treats Peter (completley heartlessly) and how they were in a relationship when they went into that dimension, it feels like a total betrayal from her to me. I'v eposted hundreds of times in this thread obvious I've said it numerous ways, but ultimately that's what it comes down to for me. It's not about her being a nun, that's too extreme. And again it's like a double layered betrayal. If she had just had sex with Paul while they were in that dimension but came back to Peter when she was rescued you could almost make me ok with that. I still don't think she would do it, but it's closer. It's this combination of cheating and leaving that makes it really reach the Sins Past tier of bad to me (which also featured a woman in love with PEter just ignoring that she was in love with Peter to sleep with another man)….
    I agree, it’s not as bad as Sins Past or OMD. But, as you also basically acknowledge, that’s not saying a whole lot because this is so bad.

    I wonder what Well’s second year is going to bring us.

  9. #789
    Fantastic Member Spidey_Legend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    I agree, it’s not as bad as Sins Past or OMD. But, as you also basically acknowledge, that’s not saying a whole lot because this is so bad.

    I wonder what Well’s second year is going to bring us.
    I think a poor version of a Gang War.

  10. #790
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightwing96 View Post
    Hi, first time poster here.

    I think the big issue for many fans is that their relationship is not explicitly defined. I know ppl can say you need to read subtext but the fact that so many ppl across this platform and reddit are arguing what Paul and MJ are is b/c its not clearly defined which leaves ample room for debate (which I suspect is done on purpose). Also I refuse to believe the idea that everyone who can't read subtext is a moron so I really do blame the writing here. Perhaps Zeb never meant to delve further than he has in terms of showing their relationship on page but a single page where MJ confirms her feelings one way or the other would resolve the issue (and could have been done in this issue's flashback). I agree with the poster who said she chose to get to know Paul and came to trust him and built a tight bond that formed from trying to survive in the wilderness together. I can see how two ppl would grow close from that on top of raising two children together, essentially becoming their adopted parents. Some ppl have implied the scene where MJ and Paul are in the bedroom and there is a single bed to imply a romantic relation ship but given today's flashback it could just be a reference tied to that confession of who Paul really is and nothing more. I also saw someone pointing out that MJ chose to deny Peter a kiss but its possible that she denied kissing Peter b/c so much has changed in those 4 years that she is now committed to her family, so it isn't necessarily out of romantic love for Paul but because her life circumstances has changed so much. I mean its possible she is in love with Paul. I would argue odds are 50/50. Most of the supporting evidence for PaulxMJ could come strictly from ASM #25 but maybe also from the MJ/Black Cat mini where she says she doesn't care about him dating Felicia. But it could also not be the case based on text from ASM #4 where MJ seems to want to tell Peter something while at Oscorp but more importantly in ASM #9 where when Peter asks if she won't talk to him b/c she loves Paul so much but instead of confirming those feelings she shouts back its b/c of responsibility (maybe she meant towards her new family that she doesn't want to break up).

    Idk what the real answer is and I suspect that since Zeb plans to write 50 issues for his run, that the Paul and MJ relationship will actually be explored further towards the second half of his run as a B plot. What this arc did answer is why Peter and MJ are not together but that still leaves the question of what do they mean to each other in the present with MJ seemingly moved on and Peter trying to move on. Btw I feel terrible for Felicia as its clear she truly cares for Peter and accepts that he still carries a torch for MJ but chooses to accept that anyways. She is awesome. Who knows maybe at the end of this run both Peter and MJ will be drawn to each other again and it will turn into a story of how these two star crossed lovers will never stop loving each other. I'm speculating pretty hard right now. Anyways I see so much discourse on PeterxMJ and PaulxMJ and ppl either arguing about the relationship status or on how this status quo was created so I wanted to add my two cents. I really do feel if the writing was more clear, at least one of these two arguments would be put to rest but I suspect stirring up drama is a good way to keep fans engaged and buying their product (i.e. the ASM comic) as they know a majority of fans are invested in PeterxMJ.
    Very good post.
    I would hope that both relationships are explored more. It would be best for both scenarios and make it feel less 'temporary' and more like it's being invested in.

    Ultimately if MARVEL wanted to end the drama, they'd have pulled a Scandal Savage.




  11. #791
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Honestly my takeaway is that if they wanted to have her move on from Peter they should've made the time jump bigger (I don't think four years is enough) or doubled down on her losing any hope Peter would show up and come back for her. Like give her virtually every reason imaginable for her to believe Peter wouldn't be coming back for her.

    Of course for all we know she never actually moved on and she's just being vaguely close to Paul because of the kids that now don't exist.
    This is another thing. Like, I know we're pretty negative here thanks to OMD, but even OMD took pains to try and make Peter and MJ as blameless as possible in that situation. THey didn't just get divorced. They didn't just fall out of love or die, they retroactively erased the marraige. It didn't work, but there's some sense of good storytelling that holds them back from just going full out "**** MJ". Which they could do. They have total control. No one is stopping them. I really don't think that was ever the real intention here. I mean, as I posted in the MJ appreciation topic, in the Marvel Encyclopedia Mary Jane's subtitle is "The Webslinger's wife and one true love". I think the real intention here is just to create drama. When I remember that I do get a little more hopeful, because it really seems like the pro-OMD group within Marvel is smaller and smaller (like, all the main artists on the book have expressed pro-MJ sentiments). I' mnot fully convinced that OMD isn't considered a dead concept even within Marvel.

    i thik this is just an attempt to create drama. And because WElls isn't quite skilled enough, he's inadvertently causing damage because of a gap in appearance. like, they might be in the minority, but there are posters here who see no issue with it, they just think time is sufficient, MJ didn't do anything wrong, and her just breaking up with Paul and getting back with Peter is no big deal. Wells could have the same read. It's WRONG, but he absolutely could. I would expect that's really what's happening here more. I din't get to hear the podcast myself, but in a podcast recap thread from back in January, it was noted that WElls said he preferred to write stories about Peter and MJ "struggling to be together but not being able to or just fighting to get together". The problem may very well still be his execution, not his intent.

    Quote Originally Posted by GeorgiaDawg View Post
    The lack of affection and the fact that they just shrugged off the Paul mystery tells me this story is far from over.

    Heck neither Peter or Mary Jane seem concerned with how Paul even exists if he isn’t from this dimension but Rabin is. Clearly the MJ drama is the equivalent to click bait rather than good story telling at this point. The hype just doesn’t match anything here. Even angry Ms Marvel fans are conceding she’ll be back as a mutant and are just pissed with how this happened.

    I genuinely have never experienced this level of negativity or online apathy. Post OMD got negative but there seemed to be more posters on forums who were positive compared to the social media and forum circuits today.
    As someone not reading comics at the time I don't think anything compares to OMD. The furor of OMD reached far and wide. I knew all about OMD before I had ever read a single Spider-Man comic, and I knew it in detail. It was on other social forums I was visting at the time, youtube reviews, random websites, I dont' think anything has reached that level. But this is the biggest furor I've seen since starting reading comics. It feels most similar to Dying Wish (the superior take over) but as I've noted int he past, there were a lot more people willing to keep an open mind about that one. People just feel done here. I think the Spencer run just changed the dynamic too much.

    I dont' think there's anymore tot he Paul Mystery. Honestly he could be written out at this point and never appear again, though I doubt we're that lucky. But the lack of affection SHOULD BE SOMETHING.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroBG82 View Post
    Y'all do realize that every time this thread grows a page, every time you post about how much you dislike Plot A or Character B, every time you debate whether a thing is in character or not Marvel takes that as a sign of engagement with the story, right?

    This is exactly what they want. Exactly why they keep telling stories like this. If you truly hate it, not buying it or reading it isn't enough.

    Let the discussions die, stop replying in the threads. Stop being engaged in the story exactly the way they want you to be.

    My takeaway from this thread? This run in a MASSIVE success. It shouldn't be, but it clearly is.
    Eh, not all attention is good attention. We're mad now, we'll tucker ourselves out eventually, lol. Just remember to drop the book people. Ignore it going forward until restitution is offered.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venomsaurus View Post
    Issue 9 is one of the few holdout points for me as well to try and stay even a teensy bit positive in this sea of negative I'm feeling from this arc. Though my issue there is that Wells isn't a reliable narrator for this story really. It feels like he's just kinda making it up as he goes, so that could be a huge moment, or it could just be him giving us false hope. I choose to remain on the positive side. It FEELS like a very, very important moment. Like, a definitive one for where their relationship is at, so I'm really hoping we see it expanded upon later down the line.
    I'm right there. There's only like three interactions between Peter and MJ in this whole run before this arc, and it's the most distinct one and it's the most MJ centric story of the run prior to this arc. It FEELS important. But.....the otehr issues Wells has shown makes it impossible to trust he's following his own story logic. I mean. those kids, lol.


    This is the most frustrating angle to it all. The vagueness. This kind of wishy-washy are they aren't they boning storytelling is just maddening. It's like Schrodinger's Ship. The lack of clarity just makes everything more nebulous and frustrating.

    All I need is just one sentence. Just one. That's all. Something akin to "I stayed with him for the kids, but I always loved you." That's it. I'm not asking for the world. Just something that puts out the dumpster fire that is Mary Jane Watson 2023.
    She doesn't even have to say it to him, lol. She can just tell Paul. Whatever. I just need to hear it.

    Like I was thinking about his earlier today, adn the funny thing is you could have everything the smae but a couple scenes in 25 and attitudes about this situation would be radically differnt.

    Scene 1: MJ promises the kids that they'll all be a family forever in an attempt to bond with them.
    Scene 2a: Paul in response says he's flattered, but he's gay, MJ responds that she's taken anyway, but they can pretend for the kids.
    -or-
    Scene 2b: Paul attempts to come on to MJ, but she rejects him apologetically, saying they have to pretend for the kids, because she loves another man and it wouldn't feel right, she couldn't even enjoy it. Paul accepts this due to his own guilt, and tells MJ about his past.
    Scene 3: Paul was checking on the kids and realizes that they aren't totally natural, MJ doesn't care, and asks what they need. Paul theorizes that because they're related to symbology, they might need to be kept in a situation that would be most healthy and common for kids their age, that old nuclear family.

    Done. MJ's beehavior is 90% explained. Then when she reconciles with Peter she explains she was cruel to him to try and get him to not love her since she thought she was committed to the kids, and cries about it. And done. Now the situation isn't MJ being heartless and cheating, it's MJ making a sacrifice for the greater good. It turns it into a tragedy and turns her into a character we want to root for and to find a way out for. And you get the same effect up through 26. She would have stayed with them for the kids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian B View Post
    I agree, it’s not as bad as Sins Past or OMD. But, as you also basically acknowledge, that’s not saying a whole lot because this is so bad.

    I wonder what Well’s second year is going to bring us.
    Yeah being better than the worst Spider-Man story ever and the former worst Spider-Man story ever is....well about as low a bar as you can cross.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey_Legend View Post
    I think a poor version of a Gang War.
    The Beetle/Robertson weedding seems like the intended big lynchpin of the run, honestly. Randy proposes in issue 1, after all. I think this stuff Wells just lost control of thorugh some bad ideas.

  12. #792
    Astonishing Member Majesty's Avatar
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    "Allow me to reintroduce myself my name is-"

    https://twitter.com/CassieComics/sta...99831953686528

  13. #793
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    Quote Originally Posted by Majesty View Post
    It's really amazing how the "Mary Jane is Peter's SOULMATE" crowd want to diminish the time Peter also spent time away for about a 3 year span and was going to marry someone else. Funny that.

    The ones also screaming the loudest about "choice being taken away" from Mary Jane don't want to mention how Sara WOULD have married Peter had her memories not been altered/erased. You want to talk about choice being taken away? Talk about that. Because that's an actual example of it.

    Mary Jane didn't choose to be trapped in an alternate world. Just as Sara didn't choose to be lost in time. But Mary Jane chose to be with Paul when she could have kept everything platonic.

    Sara and Peter chose to be with one another, Peter chose to marry her. Sara didn't choose to have her memories taken away. Peter didn't choose to have them taken away from her.

    So if you want to talk about Spider-Man romances that involved marriage where someone's choice was actively taken away, there you have it.

    People keep on trying to theorycraft SOME WAY that Paul is lying or SOME WAY that Mary Jane's memory has been altered to convince themselves why she'd pick Paul over Peter or how she could fall in love with someone other than Peter. And they get up on their high horses about misogyny and things of that variety and how 'offensive' it is.

    But I mention Sara Bailey and she's treated like she doesn't matter when she actually had choice and memories taken away from her against her will. And had those choices not been taken away against her will, she and Peter would have married. And the problematic nature of Peter being able to keep his memories but she gets hers taken away in order to avoid getting married, is glossed over and barely mentioned at best. But Mary Jane actively makes her own choice and suddenly "What misogynism behind such a decision!!!" Seems it only matters when it's certain characters but not all.

    But go off I guess.

    The reality is this. Despite the "soulmate" crowd. Intervention needed to happen to prevent Peter from marrying someone else he'd fallen in love with. Active choice was taken away from her so she could 'conveniently' forget him in order to prevent them from being married. To top it all off he was allowed to keep his memories, whereas she wasn't. She wasn't given the choice. She wasn't given the option. It was just taken from her. If you really wanted to go off about choice being taken away, that'd be your actual version of it.

    Replace Sara with Mary Jane in the same situation and I guarantee you all heck would be breaking loose on this forum. If Mary Jane and Peter got trapped in time, fell back in love full-time, and Peter was about to propose to her. And then they were transported back to modern time with Mary Jane having no memory of their time together or no memory of her loving Peter(against her will, mind you), whereas Peter had to keep his memories. I could only imagine the hellstorm that it would create.

    But it happens with Sara and it's "Well it was a first time writer.." and "eh.. not really that meaningful.."

    I see.
    ... But you are talking about a character who has only appeared in three issues ever ... more than a decade ago ... and those not even of the main Spidey book ...

    A character who was only even in a relationship with Pete for one of those issues ... whom even most Spidey fans probably have not the faintest knowledge of ... who was created specifically for that one story, to give it the outcome you described ...

    The real-world context is so drastically different, why would you expect people to be talking about her and MJ the same? That's not even a little reasonable.

    I'm also not sure how citing another example of a woman that Pete wasn't allowed to marry is supposed to nullify anyone's beef with editorial fiat that Pete can't get married again...?

  14. #794
    Spectacular Member Dark-Jacket's Avatar
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    I somehow wish internet existed when MJ became more popular than Gwen Stacy and Marvel tried and changed Gwen so she looked more like MJ.
    Meltdown from fans would have been nuclear. ^^

    As I said earlier we are passionnante about MJ because she always was a compelling character with or without Peter. People wouldn't react so badly if they managed to create another love interest which worked organically.
    Last edited by Dark-Jacket; 06-02-2023 at 03:56 PM.

  15. #795
    Uncanny Member Digifiend's Avatar
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    True. But wasn't it even stated in-universe that Gwen was copying MJ when she got her bangs?
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