ASM #26 Preview

[Brian B]

Also, if the kids were what allowed him to track her, why would he get rid of them before he killed her? Also how did he know where to find....Kamala MJ? Like he teleports right to her, but how does he know where she is? HE clearly isnt' tracking actual MJ because then he wouldn't have killed the wrong girl.

So much of this story does not make sense because it is simply bad writing. That’s all there is to it.

[Toonstrack]

You just ignored everything else I wrote about how people can make choices that place them in situations where Stockholm Syndrome is a thing.

Making a sacrifice to become imprisoned still means you’re imprisoned. And there is a deluge of psychology written about how trauma survivors create codependent relationships with their captors to sustain their sanity. It is toxic and I’ve had to help people through it. What MJ went through is not empowering; it’s horrifying. A good counselor would absolutely step in and evaluate her “relationship”.

And it'd still be her choice. Like, by that logic she's been in a ton of traumatic experiences with Peter, she's could be considering him a mental safe space as a result of those experiences. Every character in this gd universe has ptsd. That doesnt mean none of them want to be in relationships or should be. And that CERTAINLY doesn't mean its Stockholm syndrome lol.

Attachments that supposedly allowed him to find her wherever she is ... yet which he hilariously didn't act upon for years ...

Yea he did. He hunted them constantly in the other world.

[Xenon]

She didn't tell him she betrayed him. She told him she'd moved on. It happens. But she didn't owe him any more than that. She's moved on plenty of times before in various other media. She's never been "waiting" on Peter like some puppy dog.

Yeah, she was tricked with the mother relsriobsh I with the kids. That appeals to her long time desires too and her selfless nature. She wanted to care for the kids, and she csnt do that with Peter, both in a metaphysical sense and in an in universe sense.

1) This is inaccurate. She's basically waiting around for Peter the first time she returns before they get married. She's also waiting around for him near the end of Big Time. It's happened multiple times.
2) Her moving on while he's fighting to save her and they're in a committed relationship is a betrayal, which is what she told him. You can think it's a justified betrayal, but it's a betrayal none the less. And a betrayal that's not justified at all.. Yes, she owes him more than just giving up on him for no reason. But even if she didn't, as a person who had finally gotten back together with someone she loved, why would she WANT to move on? That's not respecting her agency or character.
3) There's literally no reason she can't take care of the kids with Peter. She was pregnant once they've thought of this in the past. And again, if it was just about the kids, she could have just told him that. It's not justification to act like she did int he hospital.

[Kevinroc]

We're talking about a story where the villain can track MJ through time and space and attack her anywhere and then mixes her up with a random shapeshifter.

This is a terrible story.

[Knightsilver]

So much of this story does not make sense because it is simply bad writing. That’s all there is to it.

This in a nutshell. Trying to analyze the reasons for the characters actions is largely a pointless exercise because the writing isn't there to make it make any sense. The only reasonable explanation would be that"MJ" is a magical doppelganger...and the real MJ is somewhere else.

[Toonstrack]

She gave up on him. That is the exact opposite of how this character should act in this situation.

Usually when we have stories about lovers separated in this manner, we get stories from the man's perspective. Superman and Batman have both had stories where they were trapped in some magical realm with Wonder Woman (and there's a lot to unpack about that). Wonder Woman is their friend, their compatriot. And yet their love for their partner (Lois and Catwoman respectively) is so strong that the idea of being with another, even someone whom they trust, love, and respect, is completely off the table.

But you put MJ in this situation and, what? She gives up on Peter and loses faith in him and hooks up with a stranger? And it's okay? Why? Because she's just a supporting character? The whole thing feels misogynistic. "Women don't love their partners as much as men do" is the message they are sending with this.

(But oh, they are still playing coy as to the exact nature of their relationship.)

She didn't give up on him. She had other things to take care of. She started a new life because she had to. And that new life included this family.

Superman and Lois are married, nd therds been plenty of times they haven't been and they've been apart and she's started a life with other women. In for the man who has everything, he encisons a completely different life to his own and is with a completely different girl.

Batman litersllt still beats around the bush with Talia and Selina alternating to this day.

Your perspective on this is immensely skewed if you're not seeing that. You're seeing whatever message you want to see, they aren't saying anything about all women. They are saying something about one woman, and its consistent with how she's been portrayed. She absolutely would not have waited for years for Peter and you all know it. Mj has never been that type of girl. She's going to move on because she wants to live. She never outs her life on hold for anyone else.

[Toonstrack]

1) This is inaccurate. She's basically waiting around for Peter the first time she returns before they get married. She's also waiting around for him near the end of Big Time. It's happened multiple times.
2) Her moving on while he's fighting to save her and they're in a committed relationship is a betrayal, which is what she told him. You can think it's a justified betrayal, but it's a betrayal none the less. And a betrayal that's not justified at all.. Yes, she owes him more than just giving up on him for no reason. But even if she didn't, as a person who had finally gotten back together with someone she loved, why would she WANT to move on? That's not respecting her agency or character.
3) There's literally no reason she can't take care of the kids with Peter. She was pregnant once they've thought of this in the past. And again, if it was just about the kids, she could have just told him that. It's not justification to act like she did int he hospital.

1. Just as many times if not more has she moved on and flat old told Peter if he cant keep up then it isn't gonna work.

2. Its not a betrayal. She didn't even know if Peter was alive. You keep dancing around this. How long should she have waited? Whats your answer?

3.peter is a mess who is late to everything, can't commit to being anywhere, can die on any given day and has to leave at all times because of his job. He is not a person to start a stable family with for kids who already are lacking stability.

[Kevinroc]

She didn't give up on him. She had other things to take care of. She started a new life because she had to. And that new life included this family.

Superman and Lois are married, nd therds been plenty of times they haven't been and they've been apart and she's started a life with other women. In for the man who has everything, he encisons a completely different life to his own and is with a completely different girl.

Batman litersllt still beats around the bush with Talia and Selina alternating to this day.

Your perspective on this is immensely skewed if you're not seeing that. You're seeing whatever message you want to see, they aren't saying anything about all women. They are saying something about one woman, and its consistent with how she's been portrayed. She absolutely would not have waited for years for Peter and you all know it. Mj has never been that type of girl. She's going to move on because she wants to live. She never outs her life on hold for anyone else.

Yes, she did give up on him. Her agency has been stripped away and she has been reduced to an object to make Peter sad. She's ended up with the exact opposite kind of life than she wanted (the kind of life her mother and sister had).

The depictions of women in this run are deeply problematic. Just saying otherwise doesn't make it untrue.

Because let's not forget that Felicia has been reduced to a consolation prize and she is totally cool with that.

[duke togo]

I've been reading Spider-Man since I was a child and have never stopped collecting. Even with the Mackie/Byrne run and even with OMD, but I'm officially done with this issue. Nobody reads like the characters they once were and it's simply been a frustrating experience. Why spend money to get upset? Doesn't make sense. I will say the art was fantastic, but I in good conscience can't give them any more of my money. I hope many of you stop giving money to this garbage, otherwise Marvel will never get the message. When Peter and MJ get back together, I'll come back as a paying customer. I might read an issue or two through "other" means, but that's it. Such a shame what this book has become and pretty crazy that Nick Lowe still posts on Twitter even though they are roasting him nonstop.

[Toonstrack]

Yes, she did give up on him. Her agency has been stripped away and she has been reduced to an object to make Peter sad. She's ended up with the exact opposite kind of life than she wanted (the kind of life her mother and sister had).

The depictions of women in this run are deeply problematic. Just saying otherwise doesn't make it untrue.

Because let's not forget that Felicia has been reduced to a consolation prize and she is totally cool with that.

You're treating her like an object by removing her choices because you dont like them. Thats you, not the story.

You not liking a woman's decision doesn't mean her choice now doesn't exist. She's been living a life independent of one man, and so you label her as an object for that man. Thats you, not the story. Shes moved on. Its Peter who hasn't.

Depicting a woman who has no life to live outside of one man, to the point where she sits and twiddle her thumbs for years in his absence until he gives her reason to live again, is far more problematic. And goes against everything this character has ever been. She has NEVER been like that.

[Venomsaurus]

What I'm curious about now is, where do Peter and MJ even stand? Because I really have no idea where their relationship even goes from here.

Just as of issue 19(Yes I know Joe Kelly wrote it, that doesn't make it magically non-canon, folks) she still seemed to HATE Peter. And we know it wasn't to protect him from Rabin or some such. In fact, we now know he did nothing, and she just hates him for no good reason. Paul did worse by helping committ genocide, and then when confronted about it punches Peter. Yet somehow Peter is the one she hates and is mad at. Okay. Cool. Sure.

So where do they even go now? Does she just automatically forgive him for whatever made up reason she hated him? Do her and Paul still try and make it work? Will Peter try and be her friend again? Because real talk, I don't see how they can still be friends right now. MJ treated him like dirt for a year for no good reason. Totally shut him out of her life. Even if her reason for being with Paul was for the kids, that doesn't mean Peter couldn't be a part of her life in one way or another. She just goes from hating him before this story arc, to desperately needing him and relying on him again as if he's still a friend. So which is it? Can she not stand him, or are they healing their relationship? This isn't typical will they/won't they storytelling. This is a basic question that should be answered. Because so far the characters are on real shaky ground and it feels like it's only getting more unstable.

Personally, I'd really like to see them try and just mend things. MJ admit she was pushing him away for no good reason and apologize. Peter admit he should have given her space when she said that's what she wanted. They both made mistakes.

I'm still of the theory that MJ convinced herself she loved Paul, desperately kept up the illusion, and with the kids gone it's now shattered and she'll have to confront how terrible she was to Peter and see if they can move on together. I'm not even saying romantically. Like, just being friends is gonna take some work after all this. That's how bad it is.

[Xenon]

She didn't give up on him, she just didn't wait an indeterminate amount of years to when he'd maybe come back.

Like the other guy said how king should she wait? Should she just become a nun and never love again waiting for one boy? That isnt MJ. Shes never had that disposition at any point.

Until she had reason not to. MJ knows PEter is never going to give up on her. She even says so in the hospital scene (contradicting herself) by saying she knows when Peter says he didn't waste any time at all trying to save her.

Wow. That's reaching. Peter is not a soilder, they were not face timing or writing letters or a wife waiting at home or husband waiting at home knowing their spouse is doing a service for their nation. The story is they were in a dimension, MJ felt the world needed Peter and would not leave him there to die so she choose to have him leave and her remain there. For peter the events in the real world went on in one week while it was 4 years for mj. So to use the comparison to war you would need to say a husband went away to war and it was one week for him but when he returned to his wife he realized 4 years had past and she waited for him for one with no knowledge, no hope, no pentagon to tell her where he is or that he is returning.

So it's really just a false equivalency.

It's not a false equivalency at all. You think every girlfriend got letters every week from their boyfriend in WWII? Let's go further back to the era of the crusades and the caliphate conquest of northern africa. You think those people who had no contact for years were justified sleeping around? And that's just real life, not a fantastical world where anythng can happen and her boyfriend is a genius with superpowers who ALREADY MADE A PORTAL ONCE.

So much of this story does not make sense because it is simply bad writing. That’s all there is to it.

Yeah sometimes i'm just asking questions to point out the dumb.

And it'd still be her choice. Like, by that logic she's been in a ton of traumatic experiences with Peter, she's could be considering him a mental safe space as a result of those experiences. Every character in this gd universe has ptsd. That doesnt mean none of them want to be in relationships or should be. And that CERTAINLY doesn't mean its Stockholm syndrome lol.



Yea he did. He hunted them constantly in the other world.

MJ falls in love with Peter by issue 150, when the only traumatic experience is their mutual friend dying, but she's pursuing Peter before that point. She also leave him after that point and plays the field for a while before coming back to him. She had freedom and choice when it came to Peter. She did not when it came to Paul. Well, outside of just waiting for Peter, which is the choice she would have made.

There's little evidence Rabin himself constantly hunted them in the other world. WHen he shows up he nearly kills them, and the whole reason they left where they initially were is because Rabin knew where they were. If he was finding them repeatedly they'd be moving repeatedly, but instead they treat their location as static. IF they're supposed to be moving constantly....well they needed to do a better job.

We're talking about a story where the villain can track MJ through time and space and attack her anywhere and then mixes her up with a random shapeshifter.

This is a terrible story.

I mean this is also correct and inexcusable. It'd be one thing if he was just fast and chased down who looked like MJ and was wrong. But he teleports right to...Kamala....who he thinks is MJ. I guess he has farsight or something? Badly done either way.

[mugen]

Yes they are. MJ would allow herself be trapped knowing how important Peter is to the world. Shed sent him first. That was a selfless act, and consistent with her character.

so consistent that once peter is gone she cries and begs peter to come back save her? and then out of nowhere she thinks he won't come to save her anymore? the same peter who seriously sacrificed his life for her... and i'm not talking about the hospital scene which completely ruins mj's character.

she cheats on peter with paul just because they are the last humans there is no logic it's just cliché and ridiculous just to be able to separate them again since OMD was implemented.

She defends Paul and stays with him knowing the truth about him, that he helped his father genocided everyone and he's sorry for that lol because where a genocide is comparable to the death of uncle ben so paul reminded him of peter...

[Kevinroc]

You're treating her like an object by removing her choices because you dont like them. Thats you, not the story.

You bot liking a woman's decision doesn't mean her choice now doesn't exist.

Depicting a woman who has no life to live outside of one man, to the point where she sits and twiddle her thumbs for years in his absence until he gives her reason to live again, is far more problematic. And goes against everything this character has ever been. She has NEVER been like that.

The story removed her choices, and you pretending it didn't is straight up gaslighting. She literally got stranded in another dimension with the son of her captor and the story gave her a couple of kids to look after even though we know this is not the life MJ wanted. And the kids were so inconsequential that they were just removed without a second thought.

MJ was reduced to an object to make Peter sad. Felicia was reduced to an object to try to cheer Peter up. Kamala was reduced to a corpse just so they could fake out the audience into thinking MJ had died.

That is how this run has depicted the women who have appeared in it.

[Xenon]

You're treating her like an object by removing her choices because you dont like them. Thats you, not the story.

You not liking a woman's decision doesn't mean her choice now doesn't exist. She's been living a life independent of one man, and so you label her as an object for that man. Thats you, not the story. Shes moved on. Its Peter who hasn't.

Depicting a woman who has no life to live outside of one man, to the point where she sits and twiddle her thumbs for years in his absence until he gives her reason to live again, is far more problematic. And goes against everything this character has ever been. She has NEVER been like that.

Is there any choice they can publish that's too far? Like If next Issue MJ picked up a machine gun and murdered a bunch of innocent bystanders would it be ok to call that out of character?

You're not giving any respect to her character, you're just insisting wihtout reasoning or logic to back you up that she did it therefore she chose it. Like where's the line for "out of character" for you?

What I'm curious about now is, where do Peter and MJ even stand? Because I really have no idea where their relationship even goes from here.

Just as of issue 19(Yes I know Joe Kelly wrote it, that doesn't make it magically non-canon, folks) she still seemed to HATE Peter. And we know it wasn't to protect him from Rabin or some such. In fact, we now know he did nothing, and she just hates him for no good reason. Paul did worse by helping committ genocide, and then when confronted about it punches Peter. Yet somehow Peter is the one she hates and is mad at. Okay. Cool. Sure.

So where do they even go now? Does she just automatically forgive him for whatever made up reason she hated him? Do her and Paul still try and make it work? Will Peter try and be her friend again? Because real talk, I don't see how they can still be friends right now. MJ treated him like dirt for a year for no good reason. Totally shut him out of her life. Even if her reason for being with Paul was for the kids, that doesn't mean Peter couldn't be a part of her life in one way or another. She just goes from hating him before this story arc, to desperately needing him and relying on him again as if he's still a friend. So which is it? Can she not stand him, or are they healing their relationship? This isn't typical will they/won't they storytelling. This is a basic question that should be answered. Because so far the characters are on real shaky ground and it feels like it's only getting more unstable.

Personally, I'd really like to see them try and just mend things. MJ admit she was pushing him away for no good reason and apologize. Peter admit he should have given her space when she said that's what she wanted. They both made mistakes.

I'm still of the theory that MJ convinced herself she loved Paul, desperately kept up the illusion, and with the kids gone it's now shattered and she'll have to confront how terrible she was to Peter and see if they can move on together. I'm not even saying romantically. Like, just being friends is gonna take some work after all this. That's how bad it is.

My initial theory still works. She loves him too much to be his friend and not be with him. So she pushes him a away to not break up the family and cause the kids more trauma. She treats him like dirt to try and convince him to move on, then is angry with him for still loving her and ruining her plan. That's why she almost breaks at the end of 9, she's too emotionally drained to keep up the facade. Easiest route to go, you never have to use Paul again, it gives her an ok but not amazing excuse for acting bad. Gets them back together fast if Felicia is not in the way.

And while i'm hesitant to put any meaning behind any subtle cues in this book, the scene at the end of 9 is not subtle and makes no sense unless MJ is not happy with her situation. And her face in both 1 and 19 are clearly meant to imply conflict and unhappiness seeing Peter. It's all right there for them to do, they just have to do it instead of BSing us for another year.