ASM #26 Preview

[Kevinroc]

Performance is about more than sales.

Everything surrounding this book is toxic. And all the articles about Amazing Spider-Man 26 calling it misogynistic and racist are exactly the opposite kind of PR that any company should want. When the only people cheering for what you are doing with this book are the comicsgate people, you really should think about what you're doing.

[NC_Yankee]

[QUOTE=Kevinroc;6490939]Performance is about more than sales.

Everything surrounding this book is toxic. And all the articles about Amazing Spider-Man 26 calling it misogynistic and racist are exactly the opposite kind of PR that any company should want. When the only people cheering for what you are doing with this book are the comicsgate people, you really should think about what you're doing.[/QUOTE
I did not read the comic nor will I read until Wells is gone. Why? I have reached the Acceptance Stage, where I realize things are not getting any better, so why waste my time and money being angry. At the same time I am not going to accuse him of being misogynistic and racist because those are dangerous charges which should not be thrown out without more evidence then what happened with Kamala. What is fair is critiquing the use of Kamala in Amazing as nothing more then a plot device to get a desired result. Why? She is NOT a Peter legacy character ( just like using Mephisto who is also a non Peter legacy character in OMD for exactly the same reason which is keeping Peter and MJ apart).

[Xenon]

It was confirmed by multiple sources that Disney/Marvel sabotaged the X-Men comics and media for a time to devalue it. They pushed the Inhumans hard as a replacement, and multiple mutant characters were retconned to no longer be mutants (Wanda, Pietro, Franklin, Squirrel Girl, etc.). Kamala was meant to be a mutant but they forced her to be an Inhuman instead. X-men characters were reduced in crossover media like Marvel vs Capcom, titles were cancelled or merged into other team books, and merchandise was restricted.

So many are assuming they’re doing it again with Spider-Man.

Maybe, but I legitimately think we just got a very poorly-conceived and executed story.

Yeah. Over on the Paul thread the letters column from 1 was posted and in it there's basically an entire paragraph telling people to give it a chance even though we know you hate the last couple of pages. For some reason they seem to have thougth they had something here. They did not. (for some reason that letter page causes peak anger for me and I don't understand why)

Watched Across the Spiderverse last night and man I enjoyed it and it frustrated me that an animated film can really understand the mythos of the character, but the main comic book can't. Either way, hopefully everyone enjoys the film and drops this book.

Yep. That was it. Spider-Verse shows repeatedly it understand how to make an entertaining Spider-Man story and it just makes me want to scream because the core of the franchise doesn't even get it.

I mean, they did tell readers that 20 years of story and character-building fans invested in were being completely erased when they did One More Day, and the book and fanbase has never truly healed from that decision…

It really hasn't. There are still people online who will cite they aren't buying Spider-Man because of OMD. HArd to fault them.

They've had enough time where they should have rethought everything they were doing.

Honestly? Marvel would be completely justified if they fired Wells and Lowe for their performance.

This is kind of the core as to why watching ATSV made me so mad. I understand you have to get people time to try and put out a good product, especially if you have a long subplot you're developing. But 26 issues is PLENTY. It's just inexcusable they're going to let this guy write another year of the book.

Long as Wells and Lowe make the Number 1 best selling MARVEL comic they're going nowhere.

This is the one thing they can hang their hat on, even if it's bad marketing gimmicks that are driving it.

But it's not the #1 selling book and the chart you're thinking of isn't units sold

Elaborate?

[Kevinroc]

I did not read the comic nor will I read until Wells is gone. Why? I have reached the Acceptance Stage, where I realize things are not getting any better, so why waste my time and money being angry. At the same time I am not going to accuse him of being misogynistic and racist because those are dangerous charges which should not be thrown out without more evidence then what happened with Kamala. What is fair is critiquing the use of Kamala in Amazing as nothing more then a plot device to get a desired result. Why? She is NOT a Peter legacy character ( just like using Mephisto who is also a non Peter legacy character in OMD for exactly the same reason which is keeping Peter and MJ apart).

When you get articles like these:

https://www.themarysue.com/absolutel...l-kamala-khan/

https://aiptcomics.com/2023/06/01/sp...ged-ms-marvel/

https://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/20...ala-khan-died/

I didn't say the creative team is misogynistic and racist, but this story is misogynistic and racist. I'm not going to sugarcoat what is going on.

[Garlador]

When you get articles like these:

https://www.themarysue.com/absolutel...l-kamala-khan/

https://aiptcomics.com/2023/06/01/sp...ged-ms-marvel/

https://womenwriteaboutcomics.com/20...ala-khan-died/

I didn't say the creative team is misogynistic and racist, but this story is misogynistic and racist. I'm not going to sugarcoat what is going on.

I endorse this view. I truly doubt their intent was to make something that would be viewed as offensive. But they did. I too find the story flagrantly sexist and ignorantly racist in its handling.

[Majesty]

Regardless of their intent, they knew the decision would upset people. And again, used it to get people talking about the comic Kamala. Which is the first time Kamala (comic) has had this much traction in years.

Once more, they are depending on the relaunch issue. If it's good, people will more or less forget about the 'controversy' and say that Kamala is finally getting the 'respect' she deserves and invest in that.

If the relaunch issue is bad, then they'll be in trouble. So they've got a lot banking on this relaunch of Kamala Khan's comic book character.

[Garlador]

Regardless of their intent, they knew the decision would upset people. And again, used it to get people talking about the comic Kamala. Which is the first time Kamala (comic) has had this much traction in years.

See, this to me is a huge sign of how bad Marvel editorial is, because you know when the perfect time would be to get people jumping into a Kamala book? When she had her own CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED SOLO TV SHOW last year.

And that show didn't have her share the spotlight with two other main leads either. It was all about HER. A better editorial leadership would have had a killer book with top-tier talent on the racks the day Disney+ dropped the first episode. The fact they didn't is mind-blowing to me.

Once more, they are depending on the relaunch issue. If it's good, people will more or less forget about the 'controversy' and say that Kamala is finally getting the 'respect' she deserves and invest in that.

If the relaunch issue is bad, then they'll be in trouble. So they've got a lot banking on this relaunch of Kamala Khan's comic book character.

I think it's going to be a mixed bag. SO many Kamala fans (myself included) don't want her to just get rebooted for MCU synergy as a mutant with her MCU powers. It's not something we're interested in, especially if they start sucking her away from Jersey and forcing her into X-Men titles. And the problem with the X-Men team books is so many characters there struggle to stand out against the heavy-hitter characters. Characters as big as Storm get solo runs only once in a blue moon, despite how popular she is. Her MCU powers are already covered by characters like Armor. Many of us don't want her relegated to that when her street-level adventures and her Jersey friends and family are the highlight of the book, not her rubbing elbows with Jean Grey and Professor X.

That doesn't mean it can't still be good or well-written, but I think even a perfectly executed relaunch with amazing writing will still have an uphill battle because the whole enterprise feels so shallow and transparently corporate.

And even if they nail it, the stink of giving her the "Women in Refrigerators" treatment in 2023 is not going to go away (nor should it). Avengers #200 is still talked about as a legendarily bad comic, decades after Carol returned to the scene. It won't be forgotten, even if Kamala gets her footing back under her months or years down the line.

[Majesty]

See, this to me is a huge sign of how bad Marvel editorial is, because you know when the perfect time would be to get people jumping into a Kamala book? When she had her own CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED SOLO TV SHOW last year.

And that show didn't have her share the spotlight with two other main leads either. It was all about HER. A better editorial leadership would have had a killer book with top-tier talent on the racks the day Disney+ dropped the first episode. The fact they didn't is mind-blowing to me.


I think it's going to be a mixed bag. SO many Kamala fans (myself included) don't want her to just get rebooted for MCU synergy as a mutant with her MCU powers. It's not something we're interested in, especially if they start sucking her away from Jersey and forcing her into X-Men titles. And the problem with the X-Men team books is so many characters there struggle to stand out against the heavy-hitter characters. Characters as big as Storm get solo runs only once in a blue moon, despite how popular she is. Her MCU powers are already covered by characters like Armor. Many of us don't want her relegated to that when her street-level adventures and her Jersey friends and family are the highlight of the book, not her rubbing elbows with Jean Grey and Professor X.

That doesn't mean it can't still be good or well-written, but I think even a perfectly executed relaunch with amazing writing will still have an uphill battle because the whole enterprise feels so shallow and transparently corporate.

And even if they nail it, the stink of giving her the "Women in Refrigerators" treatment in 2023 is not going to go away (nor should it). Avengers #200 is still talked about as a legendarily bad comic, decades after Carol returned to the scene. It won't be forgotten, even if Kamala gets her footing back under her months or years down the line.

I think if they nail it and continue to nail it going forward ('going forward' in comic book terms these days is about 5-10 issues and 20 issues if we're lucky) of good storytelling and a solid comic book, then the controversy will become a minor blip. They'll talk about her being fridged but the bigger talking point will be how well her relaunch goes and how good the storytelling has gotten etc etc.

When you have all the eyes on you, what matters is how you respond. So if The Ms. Marvel relaunch is really good, that is the story that will take precedence. In time for her new movie coming out as well. I hope that everyone that is pissed about what happened to her, goes and supports her new comic and movie when it comes out. Especially if they're both good.

Again though, if they're bad, then it's going to cause this to snowball.

ie it's either going to be "You killed her off but brought her back with an even better story."
Or "You killed her off and brought her back with an even worse story, thus amplifying how terrible it was to kill her off in the first place!"

I don't want to compare it to Jason Todd because people WANTED him to die, but the relaunch of his character after death is probably one of the best pulled off in comics. I don't know if Kamala will get such a significant relaunch, but it'd be nice if the storytelling was great. At the end of the day, controversy or not, good stories that also sell, is what will matter the most. More emphasis is put on the 'sell' aspect. But yeah, I just want whatever her relaunch is to be good AND sell well. Because if it's great but doesn't sell well and winds up getting canceled that'd be far more heartbreaking.

[NC_Yankee]

[QUOTE=Majesty;6491081]Regardless of their intent, they knew the decision would upset people. And again, used it to get people talking about the comic Kamala. Which is the first time Kamala (comic) has had this much traction in years.

Once more, they are depending on the relaunch issue. If it's good, people will more or less forget about the 'controversy' and say that Kamala is finally getting the 'respect' she deserves and invest in that.

If the relaunch issue is bad, then they'll be in trouble. So they've got a lot banking on this relaunch of Kamala Khan's comic book character.[/QUOTE
You hit upon one of the problems: Marvel used ASM as a plot device to generate interest in a Kamala comic. Think about Happy Days being used to spin off Laverne and Shirley and Mork and Mindy ( of course Penny Marshall ( Laverne) and Robin Williams ( Mork) were brilliant comics so it worked). Of course there are notorious flops down through the years as well, so this stunt has no guarantee of success. Frankly I would rather see an effort put into a well written Peter comic where if someone is killed off it is meaningful and lasting ( see the Stacy’s Uncle Ben and Jean De Wolff).

[Majesty]

Regardless of their intent, they knew the decision would upset people. And again, used it to get people talking about the comic Kamala. Which is the first time Kamala (comic) has had this much traction in years.

Once more, they are depending on the relaunch issue. If it's good, people will more or less forget about the 'controversy' and say that Kamala is finally getting the 'respect' she deserves and invest in that.

If the relaunch issue is bad, then they'll be in trouble. So they've got a lot banking on this relaunch of Kamala Khan's comic book character.

You hit upon one of the problems: Marvel used ASM as a plot device to generate interest in a Kamala comic. Think about Happy Days being used to spin off Laverne and Shirley and Mork and Mindy ( of course Penny Marshall ( Laverne) and Robin Williams ( Mork) were brilliant comics so it worked). Of course there are notorious flops down through the years as well, so this stunt has no guarantee of success. Frankly I would rather see an effort put into a well written Peter comic where if someone is killed off it is meaningful and lasting ( see the Stacy’s Uncle Ben and Jean De Wolff).

We also can't forget the Jefferson's was a spin off of All in the Family.

[Kevinroc]

Regardless of their intent, the story is still perceived as racist and misogynistic.

Those are not things a company wants to be known for. Comicsgaters celebrating this is not something Marvel should want.

[Garlador]

I don't want to compare it to Jason Todd because people WANTED him to die, but the relaunch of his character after death is probably one of the best pulled off in comics. I don't know if Kamala will get such a significant relaunch, but it'd be nice if the storytelling was great. At the end of the day, controversy or not, good stories that also sell, is what will matter the most. More emphasis is put on the 'sell' aspect. But yeah, I just want whatever her relaunch is to be good AND sell well. Because if it's great but doesn't sell well and winds up getting canceled that'd be far more heartbreaking.

I think Jason Todd is a much different case, because he was dead a LOOOONG time. Nearly 16 years, if I remember correctly. If Jason had popped back up alive and well within 6 months, it would most certainly NOT be regarded as fondly, and the story actually worked pretty well because readers truly believed he was dead for good. He also came back so radically different from before that it was basically a reintroduction to a completely new person entirely (one that was outright VILLAINOUS at the start).

Regardless of their intent, the story is still perceived as racist and misogynistic.

Those are not things a company wants to be known for. Comicsgaters celebrating this is not something Marvel should want.

This is THE most important thing I want to emphasize. Bad stories come and go all the time. Why am I here, back on this forums, after years of casually lurking and reading comics? Because it's a story that OFFENDED me. Because I had to see if others found it as offensive as I did. Because this was a case where it went beyond a "bad story" and instead emboldened hateful bigots and misogynists in ways I hadn't seen in a very long time. Because I think this story isn't just bad; it's HARMFUL.

I had to vent about it, analyze it, discuss it. Because, being completely blunt, this story is UNACCEPTABLE, and if this was allowed to happen without protests at their offices, then Marvel editorial needs a shakeup.

[Xenon]

I endorse this view. I truly doubt their intent was to make something that would be viewed as offensive. But they did. I too find the story flagrantly sexist and ignorantly racist in its handling.

I think my only issue here is how these complaints let them dodge the real issue with all the bad writing in the book. The "offensive" undertones are a result of bad writing and bad editing, but by focusing on that aspect the only thing we're going to get from them are surface level platitudes instead of addressing the root issue.

Regardless of their intent, they knew the decision would upset people. And again, used it to get people talking about the comic Kamala. Which is the first time Kamala (comic) has had this much traction in years.

Once more, they are depending on the relaunch issue. If it's good, people will more or less forget about the 'controversy' and say that Kamala is finally getting the 'respect' she deserves and invest in that.

If the relaunch issue is bad, then they'll be in trouble. So they've got a lot banking on this relaunch of Kamala Khan's comic book character.

To talk about something besides MJ or the kids for a moment, this is a stupid plan by them.

Killing a character to generate hype for them has becom too common place to effectively generate hype. You're right that the controversy has gotten more people to pay attention to Ms. Marvel, but then what? Death and REbirth of Superman worked because it was early in the cyclical cycle, but also because they had the successor storyline for people who were interested to pick up on. What are people who saw this supposed to do? Buy a memorial book? Buy her resurrection arc in three months? I don't see it.

Honestly I think Kamala's moment has passed, butchered by poor handling (aka bad editors), pushing her too hard, and some bad luck (If the Avengers game was more successful she may have gotten a boost). I think she can persist as a B-list character, she's got a distinct personality and is fairly unique, but any solo series is going to have to accept some low numbers to keep going.

[NC_Yankee]

I think my only issue here is how these complaints let them dodge the real issue with all the bad writing in the book. The "offensive" undertones are a result of bad writing and bad editing, but by focusing on that aspect the only thing we're going to get from them are surface level platitudes instead of addressing the root issue.



To talk about something besides MJ or the kids for a moment, this is a stupid plan by them.

Killing a character to generate hype for them has becom too common place to effectively generate hype. You're right that the controversy has gotten more people to pay attention to Ms. Marvel, but then what? Death and REbirth of Superman worked because it was early in the cyclical cycle, but also because they had the successor storyline for people who were interested to pick up on. What are people who saw this supposed to do? Buy a memorial book? Buy her resurrection arc in three months? I don't see it.

Honestly I think Kamala's moment has passed, butchered by poor handling (aka bad editors), pushing her too hard, and some bad luck (If the Avengers game was more successful she may have gotten a boost). I think she can persist as a B-list character, she's got a distinct personality and is fairly unique, but any solo series is going to have to accept some low numbers to keep going.

Black Cat comes to mind. Lots of critical acclaim, but not lots of books sold.

[HowardtheDuck95]

Yeah, I’d been watching this mess for months and it’s the reason I made an account. As someone who’s read Spider-Man since roughly 2001, and Ms Marvel since the first trade of it, it really just feels depressing to see this hit such a low. It really does feel like something’s got to give with the Post-OMD status quo finally. Like the floor has fallen out from under it.