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  1. #16
    Three Legged Member married guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaijudo View Post
    New 52 is an easy (and not incorrect) answer, but I'd argue that Identity Crisis changed the culture/tone of DC Comics that led to something like the New 52 being thought of as a good idea. And it's something it feels like it's only now really coming out of, unsurprisingly in the wake of Didio's ouster.
    That's an interesting point.
    I feel that Identity Crisis was when DC really went all-in on the dark & gritty crap that tainted it's characters all through the late 90's and 00's.

    I still think Crisis on Infinite Earths created as many headaches as it set out to resolve, and when it sold as well as it did all the wrong lessons were learned. Everything since has been some form of mop-up since this story with none of them having any sort of permanent effect.

    Zero Hour
    Infinite Crisis
    Final Crisis
    Metal
    Flashpoint
    Multiversity
    Dark Crisis

    Constant tweaks and re-sets making the DCU more and more inpenetrable to new readers (which is continually dwindling). Hell, the people in charge can't agree on what's canon and what isn't!
    "My name is Wally West. I'm the fastest man alive!"
    I'll try being nicer if you try being smarter.

  2. #17
    see beauty in all things. charliehustle415's Avatar
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    New 52 ruined an amazing continuity with legacy and a future.

    The icons were at the middle state while the young heroes were at the beginning stage and the legacy heroes were well a legacy where everything sprang up from.

    New 52 completely destroyed it

  3. #18
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    COIE.

    It's been almost 40 years and DC is occasionally still trying to "fix" damage done to some characters like Donna, the Hawks, Captain Marvel, JSA/Infinitors, etc.

    Flashpoint is of course #2 as they literally had a guide of what NOT to do (with COIE and its aftermath) and yet they made so many of the same mistakes. Except this time, editorial was apparently significantly worse so nobody was on the same page and if they were, the writer would leave/get kicked off and replaced with another person who had to be filled in on what was going on.

  4. #19
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    Flashpoint/New 52, easily.

  5. #20
    Mighty Member InfamousBG's Avatar
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    The New 52. It was awful. Anyone that says otherwise does not have a clue.
    "Life is too short so love the one you got cause you might get run over or you might get shot" - Sublime

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member Dr. Poison's Avatar
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    Like most have said, The New 52. It was like almost every book had its own continuity even though they were part of a shared universe.
    Currently(or soon to be) Reading: Alan Scott: Green Lantern, Batman/Superman: World's Finest, Fire & Ice: Welcome to Smallville, Green Arrow, Green Lantern, Jay Garrick: The Flash, Justice Society of America, Power Girl, Superman, Shazam, Titans, Wesley Dodds: Sandman, Wonder Woman, & World's Finest: Teen Titans.

  7. #22
    The King Fears NO ONE! Triniking1234's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cap808 View Post
    I'd say it was the last minute switcheroo of Hawk for Captain Atom as Monarch in Zero Hour. It ruined Hawk and Dove for decades.

    I also think if they'd have left Captain Atom as Monarch, it would've been perceived as a bigger threat, and Monarch could have possibly been a villain to this day.
    Armageddon 2001 was the Hawk/Captain Atom switch which thankfully was before my time. Zero Hour was when they said it was Monarch's/Hawk's fault but then made Parallax-Hal the real villain at the last second.
    "Cable was right!"

  8. #23
    Ultimate Member Holt's Avatar
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    Identity Crisis.

  9. #24
    Extraordinary Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaijudo View Post
    New 52 is an easy (and not incorrect) answer, but I'd argue that Identity Crisis changed the culture/tone of DC Comics that led to something like the New 52 being thought of as a good idea. And it's something it feels like it's only now really coming out of, unsurprisingly in the wake of Didio's ouster.
    Quote Originally Posted by married guy View Post
    That's an interesting point.
    I feel that Identity Crisis was when DC really went all-in on the dark & gritty crap that tainted it's characters all through the late 90's and 00's.

    I still think Crisis on Infinite Earths created as many headaches as it set out to resolve, and when it sold as well as it did all the wrong lessons were learned. Everything since has been some form of mop-up since this story with none of them having any sort of permanent effect.

    Zero Hour
    Infinite Crisis
    Final Crisis
    Metal
    Flashpoint
    Multiversity
    Dark Crisis

    Constant tweaks and re-sets making the DCU more and more inpenetrable to new readers (which is continually dwindling). Hell, the people in charge can't agree on what's canon and what isn't!
    Quote Originally Posted by Holt View Post
    Identity Crisis.
    Another vote for Identity Crisis. I don't believe it's a coincidence that DC's Identity Crisis and Marvel's Avengers Disassembled both changed the trajectory for their respective universes for the worse. Incidentally, they were both published and released in the same year as well; 2004.

    The in-your-face ultra violence of the 90s went mainstream and all the try-hard/die-hard fanboys were given the keys to every kingdom/property.

    Who wasn't ruined by those books and the subsequent years?

  10. #25
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    Infinite Crisis

  11. #26
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    The Dark Knight Returns- it is the prime cause of the darkening of Batman and through Batman the rest of the DCU. It set the stage for the Batman vs Superman (and the other JLAers) scenarios that have been done to death. And everytime they "correct" Batman since that story the character reverts to the "goddamn Batman" persona again.
    I think this is it..
    "People’s Dreams... Have No Ends"

  12. #27
    Extraordinary Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Clark View Post
    The Dark Knight Returns- it is the prime cause of the darkening of Batman and through Batman the rest of the DCU. It set the stage for the Batman vs Superman (and the other JLAers) scenarios that have been done to death. And everytime they "correct" Batman since that story the character reverts to the "goddamn Batman" persona again.
    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I think this is it..
    I blame Watchmen for that, more than anything. TPTB at DC, from Geoff Johns, to Didio and others are obsessed with that book for some reason. And had been trying for years to integrate it into the DCU proper. The Before Watchmen series, Rebirth, Doomsday Clock. Decades after the 1985 run and several years after the Z. Snyder movie. There was no resurgent wave to capitalize on. Just fanboys turned pro pushing it through.

    TDKReturns fits into that grunge, mean streets, cops and robbers mindset that Watchmen helped popularize. See also Frank Miller's Daredevil, Frank Miller's Sin City and Mirage TMNT.

    All striking the same vein of, 'the protagonist isn't a hero. He's a vigilante, an outlaw, a renegade'.
    Last edited by Doctor Know; 05-31-2023 at 11:51 AM.

  13. #28
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    To be fair,i prefer the outlaws and vigilantes to flying saviors.zoro over superman
    "People’s Dreams... Have No Ends"

  14. #29
    Astonishing Member Johnrevenge's Avatar
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    Flashpoint. It caused the biggest mess and damages in DC with new 52.

  15. #30
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by charliehustle415 View Post
    New 52 ruined an amazing continuity with legacy and a future.

    The icons were at the middle state while the young heroes were at the beginning stage and the legacy heroes were well a legacy where everything sprang up from.

    New 52 completely destroyed it
    Yeah they didn't NEED to destroy New Earth continuity to make New 52. ;-;

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