What major event in DC Comics history caused the most damage?

[JThree]

I am a little biased when it comes to Byrne's Superman stuff. That is genuinely one of my favorite runs for the character. But I get why it bothered some people.

For some reason I'm having a hard tine explaining, Byrne's reinterpretation lost the "heart" of Superman for me. Didn't always agree with some of his changes. Many new fans enjoyed Byrne's take on the Man of Steel, but it just wasn't the same, and many readers didn't know what stories still were canon and which parts were to be ignored. For me, Superman was always part of the founding of the Justice League, not just an emergency member during the time of Legends. Would have loved to seen Superman deal with the death of Supergirl longer with more lasting consequences to him, before her non-existence.

-jthree

[Gaius]

All this could have been easily resolved if they'd just inserted a bit of a time-skip into Perez' Wonder Woman...would that have hurt it too much?

Wonder Woman lost a lot by starting over from scratch in the "present day" vs. Superman and Batman being given their stories that took place in previous time. Diana was no longer on the same footing as Kal-El and Bruce were.

Not being presented on the same footing is a writer issue, not a continuity issue. She debuted around the same time as those two the New 52 and even before those two in the DCEU yet that did not stop those the World's Finest from being presented as more major focal points/importance. If you want an actual example about WW not being presented as an equal because she was a rookie direct your ire at Bruce Timm and the DCAU, not George Perez.

[JThree]

Continuity-wise, it's Crisis On Infinite Earths. The story and art are magnificent, but the "either/or" approach forever weakened the DCU. Every event since has been an attempt to change and/or undo COIE. Had an earlier event, say, Zero Hour or Infinite Crisis repaired the core areas of damaged continuity, things might be very different today. As of now, however, it's too late and COIE, even if it no longer "happened," is to blame.

As Jon Clark says above, TDKR did the most damage to Batman and to superhero comic book storytelling. It was always a "possible future," yet it's success led to Miller's characterization for Batman and Superman becoming more and more prevalent in comics and other media. It's a vastly-overrated story that is eclipsed by dozens of regular runs in Batman's long history. I'll also blame Watchmen for further popularizing the notion that superheroes only work for adult readers when they're deconstructed. Every nightmarish misstep in comics and film (Identity Crisis, Infinite Crisis, New 52, Nolanman, Snyder's garbage) in the last thirty plus years can be blamed on those two "masterpieces."

God Bless you sir. I always thought The Dark Knight Return did so much damage to the Batman franchise, when everyone wanted to bring that into the main mythos. Miller's pessimism (which was fine for a one time thing), took root in so much of DC. Shame. I miss the earlier 70's and 80's Neal Adams/Denny O'Neal stories. (Outside of the Adam West version, of course).

[Frontier]

Not being presented on the same footing is a writer issue, not a continuity issue. She debuted around the same time as those two the New 52 and even before those two in the DCEU yet that did not stop those the World's Finest from being presented as more major focal points/importance. If you want an actual example about WW not being presented as an equal because she was a rookie direct your ire at Bruce Timm and the DCAU, not George Perez.

Well, it didn't prevent her from kissing Superman either way I guess .

I guess it didn't really matter once they started associating her with the League again beyond the occasional "Black Canary was a JL founder." And they re-established Donna back as her little sister eventually anyways.

[Dataweaver]

Rebirth.

The chief damage it did was the death of, and eventual overwriting of, the New52 Superman. He was my Superman. Nothing since is very good in my opinion. The New52 hit peak Superman, finally settling on the right mix of stuff in 2011 after all those years, and just jettisoned it for almost the exact opposite in 2016 (Since then, things have settled down a little bit- Jon aging up helps a ton, but this Rebirth/Reborn guy still isn't my Superman.).

What do I want to see put back into place? Well, primarily, the New52 Superman.

Since the most I actually expect to see is for him to come back as some sort of villainous warped version of himself for a story arc in 2042 or so, I don't necessarily need a full restoration of him as the only Superman of the DC universe to have a presence in the line that exceeds my sadly low expectations.

A monthly alternate universe ongoing comic book about the Superman of Earth 52 (Keeping him a hero) on his native world (Established to be there, New52 Superman included, by a panel in Doomsday Clock), picking up from the end of his last full appearance in on our universe, except he somehow doesn't die, and taking it from there.

Unfortunately, what Doomsday Clock called Earth 52 can't be called that in the post-Dark Crisis Multiverse; they've gone with Earth 52 being the “53rd Earth” briefly mentioned in the Dark Nights series, a world of a simian League. The New 52 spin-off Earth either needs another number (which is unfortunate, because “Earth 52” is such a fitting name for it), or it needs to be relocated to Hypertime, where a consistent numbering system doesn't exist and you can call it whatever you want. Personally, I'd go with either Earth-2016 (following the precedent set by Earth-1985 of numbering spin-offs of the Metaverse by the year it broke from them) or Earth-2011 (numbering it according to the year that the New 52 debuted). From here on out, I'm going with Earth-2011.

But that's not the main reason I'm commenting here. I'm actually here for the “except somehow he doesn't die” thing. What I'd do would be to pick up just before the DCYou initiative, and remove Superman: Lois and Clark from it. Superdad and his family never arrive on Earth-2011, and The Last Days of Superman doesn't end with the two Supermen teaming up to stop the threat. Nuperman stupid it himself, but still dies.

Bear with me. I know the whole point of your post is that you want him back; and in the context of Earth-2011, I agree with you. Remember, Superman didn't stay dead after Doomsday killed him. What I'd do next would be to continue the story with Superwoman, but gradually shift the storyline to Lana discovering that it might be possible to bring Superman and Lois back to life. And eventually, after considerable effort on her part, she finally manages the feat. Maybe even tie in that appearance that Dan DiDio inserted into his Sideways series of the “Jeans and T-Shirt” Superman lost in the Dark Multiverse, and have her venture into the Dark Multiverse to retrieve him.

I'd leave the rest of the DCYou initiative the same, with the exception of Titans Hunt; but aside from the Superwoman stuff, I'd make a hard break just before DCU Rebirth.

[The Darknight Detective]

God Bless you sir. I always thought The Dark Knight Return did so much damage to the Batman franchise, when everyone wanted to bring that into the main mythos. Miller's pessimism (which was fine for a one time thing), took root in so much of DC. Shame. I miss the earlier 70's and 80's Neal Adams/Denny O'Neal stories. (Outside of the Adam West version, of course).

I grew up on Bronze Age Bats comics and, judging by my avatar, was a huge fan of him. Yet, it's hard to say he and his franchise have suffered when he's at his most popular now and for a few decades, too.

[JT221]

God Bless you sir. I always thought The Dark Knight Return did so much damage to the Batman franchise, when everyone wanted to bring that into the main mythos. Miller's pessimism (which was fine for a one time thing), took root in so much of DC. Shame. I miss the earlier 70's and 80's Neal Adams/Denny O'Neal stories. (Outside of the Adam West version, of course).

The Dark Knight Returns did not damage the Batman franchise. Neither did Batman: Year One. People trying to ape a style they were not really have a propensity for did that.

Now The Dark Knight Strikes Again...THAT might have done some damage.

[All Star Superman]

God Bless you sir. I always thought The Dark Knight Return did so much damage to the Batman franchise, when everyone wanted to bring that into the main mythos. Miller's pessimism (which was fine for a one time thing), took root in so much of DC. Shame. I miss the earlier 70's and 80's Neal Adams/Denny O'Neal stories. (Outside of the Adam West version, of course).

You're welcome! I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with such an "unpopular opinion." It infuriates me that so many DC/comics documentaries mention "Frank Miller's dark reinvention of Batman" or attribute Batman's "rebirth" to Miller. All credit goes to O'Neil and Adams, without whom Batman might not have survived into the 80s for Frank Miller to deconstruct. For my money, the most faithful Batman outside of comics remains that of Batman The Animated Series, which is very much inspired by O'Neil/Adams and the other great teams of the 70s and 80s. I hope we've finally moved past Miller's influence on DC, but I won't hold my breath.

[All Star Superman]

The Dark Knight Returns did not damage the Batman franchise. Neither did Batman: Year One. People trying to ape a style they were not really have a propensity for did that.

Now The Dark Knight Strikes Again...THAT might have done some damage.

Considering there was technically no franchise before TDKR, you might be right. It would be more accurate to say that TDKR popularized Batman to the cynical, then post-modern late-80s crowd that wanted to see their childhood heroes deconstructed so that they were as miserable as they were. TDKR led to Batman becoming a franchise outside of comics that has been largely influenced by Miller's "vision" of Batman.

[Lightning Rider]

I feel like even the supposed low points of COIE still resulted in memorable, positive outcomes. Like Diana's history being wiped and Superman's Silver Age trappings getting thrown out still produced runs that rank up there with their best stuff. The JSA still had some great runs despite not having their own Earth. JLA: Year One is still a great origin story in and of itself. Barry died, but Wally as Flash became one of the most beloved characters of all time. The things that stayed broken, like Hawkman, Power Girl, and Donna's origin, could have been remedied with better writing or planning; they weren't inevitable.

The New 52 has screwed up some things that are only just starting to get undone. It took until basically just last year for the Flash family to get fully restored, this year for the JSA to come back and Superboy to get some love again. The YJ4 generation was nowhere to be found for the better part of a decade. Not to mention the bizarre mismatches in continuity book to book at the outset. It seemed far more destructive and indifferent to history.

[Anthony Shaw]

You're welcome! I'm glad to see I'm not the only one with such an "unpopular opinion." It infuriates me that so many DC/comics documentaries mention "Frank Miller's dark reinvention of Batman" or attribute Batman's "rebirth" to Miller. All credit goes to O'Neil and Adams, without whom Batman might not have survived into the 80s for Frank Miller to deconstruct. For my money, the most faithful Batman outside of comics remains that of Batman The Animated Series, which is very much inspired by O'Neil/Adams and the other great teams of the 70s and 80s. I hope we've finally moved past Miller's influence on DC, but I won't hold my breath.

This post is winning.

Give me Bronze age Batman over Miller Bats.

[Gaius]

Well, it didn't prevent her from kissing Superman either way I guess .

I guess it didn't really matter once they started associating her with the League again beyond the occasional "Black Canary was a JL founder." And they re-established Donna back as her little sister eventually anyways.

Yes, it didn't matter because as I said it's a writer issue, not a continuity issue. WW got morally lectured to and treated like an inferior during the buildup to Infinite Crisis when she had otherwise been around for 10+years in continuity and her book had been going on for 20 years real time. There's far more that goes into treating a character with respect than being the token woman on the JL or when they debut.

And Mark Waid is to blame for Wonder Woman romantically simping for Superman.

[Frontier]

Yes, it didn't matter because as I said it's a writer issue, not a continuity issue. WW got morally lectured to and treated like an inferior during the buildup to Infinite Crisis when she had otherwise been around for 10+years in continuity and her book had been going on for 20 years real time. There's far more that goes into treating a character with respect than being the token woman on the JL or when they debut.

By then I think they had established the Trinity were still a thing thanks to that Matt Wagner series (which wasn't very good from what I heard).

And Mark Waid is to blame for Wonder Woman romantically simping for Superman.

I feel like the kiss in For the Man Who Has Everything has more to do with it. Well, that and people shipping them. I'm not even sure if Kingdom Come was out by the time there was that crossover during Bryne's run where they kissed and Supes was into her, though she let him down gently.

[Stanlos]

This post is winning.

Give me Bronze age Batman over Miller Bats.

I second this. That Batman had a better suit, a better attitude, and DEMONSTRABLY greater skill. Today's has a sort of plot armour but that blue and grey one had earned victories and wasn't getting decked by ETRIGAN or DARKSEID.

[Cap808]

Armageddon 2001 was the Hawk/Captain Atom switch which thankfully was before my time. Zero Hour was when they said it was Monarch's/Hawk's fault but then made Parallax-Hal the real villain at the last second.

Yep. That was it. Thanks for the clarification. I'm going to blame it on all the trauma I suffered through both of those storylines.