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  1. #91
    Focused Totality Psycwave's Avatar
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    Rachel has always definitely given me butch vibes. She might dress it up on occasion but I’m kinda shocked that folks haven’t seen her that way. I always thought that was the whole point of her character.

  2. #92
    Super Dupont Nicoclaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selene View Post
    Eh, this is the first time that she's been portrayed in such exaggerated "butch" undertones, and I'm talking more about her anatomy in that Grace Jones-ey suit and less so about her hair... Storm and Rogue also shared a similar fashion sense to Rachel's in the 80's, but neither of them inspired "butch" to me.

    Sorry if this offends folks, but I like this side of Rachel much more (irrespective of hair length).
    Rachel sported a mullet, which I find rather butch per se. She also wore a lot of leather jackets. She even rode motorbikes in one of the Cable series.

    The major time she really wore "femme" clothing was when she tried to emulate Marvel Girl, and she hated it.

    Why would your taste in character design offend anyone though ? I don't dislike that costume, way more in character (and still, leather sleeves) than her stint as Marvel Girl or Prestige.


    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    Rachel has come off as a tomboy but never as butch and if you see the trailer or google and they show it it's called the ultimatium: queer love. IF you watch the main ultimatium with the straight couples and then this one there is like no variety. and there is a scene of one of the girls in the trailer, the one i'm talking about basically fauning over how beautiful a woman is just on looks and i'm sorry but if i man was all gooey like that and acted like that i would find it just as off putting as i do rachel's behavior with Betsy.
    I don't understand, but the only "realtv" I watch is Drag Race (and the "real" is really a joke).
    Are you put off by someone gushing over their partner ?

    Also I thought "tomboy" and butch would be more or less synonymous, tomboy being applied to young girls (or trans boys but let's not get into that)

  3. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicoclaws View Post
    Rachel sported a mullet, which I find rather butch per se. She also wore a lot of leather jackets. She even rode motorbikes in one of the Cable series.

    The major time she really wore "femme" clothing was when she tried to emulate Marvel Girl, and she hated it.

    Why would your taste in character design offend anyone though ? I don't dislike that costume, way more in character (and still, leather sleeves) than her stint as Marvel Girl or Prestige.




    I don't understand, but the only "realtv" I watch is Drag Race (and the "real" is really a joke).
    Are you put off by someone gushing over their partner ?

    Also I thought "tomboy" and butch would be more or less synonymous, tomboy being applied to young girls (or trans boys but let's not get into that)
    Yeah proably best to just drop it. To me tom boy is a term for a girl or woman that traditionally dresses or acts masculine but is suppose to be straight. I mean the term in itself is inherently bad imo because it implies there is a feminine way for women to dress or masculine way for men to dress. Then there is the term stud, which is traditionally suppose to be some tall handsome prince charming looking dude. So the implication that a female turns into a stud and just happens to fit that exact image, seems like a weird term and also basically piegon holds a female into a type. Which as far as i know is different from trans where the person on the inside is the opposite gender but the outside doesn't match. I mean if i'm honest the only thing that confuses me about gender identity is the us, they, them, because i take certain words literally and because of that when i hear they i'm thinking plural so i usally just call someone by their name or chosen name because then i am identifying exactly who you tell me you are. But in general i don't like PDA but that's a personal thing for me, it doesn't bother me personally if others have PDA and like PDA but i personally for me am not that type of person and that's okay too. But someone fawning over a woman in the way rachel does, "oh she so beautiful, oh she so this, oh don't let anyone hit on this person, oh i'll field the calls" for me, imo, that is creepy behavior when i see it. Is it creepy in every situation? No. But the vibe i get from rachel is desperate and unsure of herself. I personally don't get why people play into what feels like tropes and that feels like what is happening to rachel. She literally went from the character she was visually to a "stud"
    Last edited by jwatson; 06-02-2023 at 07:16 AM.
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  4. #94
    Incredible Member Selene's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicoclaws View Post
    Rachel sported a mullet, which I find rather butch per se. She also wore a lot of leather jackets. She even rode motorbikes in one of the Cable series.

    The major time she really wore "femme" clothing was when she tried to emulate Marvel Girl, and she hated it.
    Like I said, I was talking more about her She-Hulk/Polaris, circa Muir Island Saga anatomy, i.e., broader shoulders, considerable difference in height compared to Elisabeth. This depiction of Rachel is unprecedented.

    Rogue has sported mullets and biker/punk attire, both in the 80's and the early 00's, -not to mention superhuman strength- it would be equally silly and forced to pull something similar to that on her. Just my two cents.
    Why would your taste in character design offend anyone though ? I don't dislike that costume, way more in character (and still, leather sleeves) than her stint as Marvel Girl or Prestige.
    Beats me, I made a remark on how the book shows the same flaws in execution with every issue a couple of pages ago, while fully recognising that I am only basing my input on online reviews, and that was enough to trigger a certain poster.

  5. #95
    Super Dupont Nicoclaws's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selene View Post
    Like I said, I was talking more about her She-Hulk/Polaris, circa Muir Island Saga anatomy, i.e., broader shoulders, considerable difference in height compared to Elisabeth. This depiction of Rachel is unprecedented.

    Rogue has sported mullets and biker/punk attire, both in the 80's and the early 00's, -not to mention superhuman strength- it would be equally silly and forced to pull something similar to that on her. Just my two cents.

    Beats me, I made a remark on how the book shows the same flaws in execution with every issue a couple of pages ago, while fully recognising that I am only basing my input on online reviews, and that was enough to trigger a certain poster.
    So...
    - "butch" is not necessarily a physique, it's more about the look. A petite woman can be butch. A femme woman can be very fit. She-Hulk is considered more femme than butch.
    - I absolutely don't see "she-hulk anatomy" for Rachel here. She has broader shoulders with the suit, which has shoulder pads, as many suits have. Her present actual super hero costume show much thin shoulders. In fact, the space costume you posted show her more muscular than this one.
    - I always assumed Rachel was rather tall, maybe because she was always next to Kitty XD
    - Early Rogue was indeed sporting a rather butch face and hair, but her looks went way more "femme" afterwards.

    and I'm sorry but you're coming off rather ignorant and disingenuous in your misuse of "trigger" or "offense" but I prefer to assume you're actually interested in what you're saying.
    I suggest you find a definition of "butch", it's rather interesting. Maybe read Stone Butch blues.

  6. #96
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rnap22 View Post
    For me its her jealousy with regards to Saturnyne. It seems unfounded since she hates Betsy. I read that line of Saturnyne wanting Betsy to come crawling back like an employer wanting an employee begging for their job back. Saturnyne has always wanted Brian. I think its odd that she would be interested in Betsy because she is CB unless Saturnyne just has CB fetish.
    I think the jealousy of Saturnyne plays a part but there is LITERALLY no love loss between Rachel and Saturnyne. Sat spent the entire first 45 issues of Excalibur trying to kidnap and imprison Rachel for her own gain. Add the trying to seduce and rape Brian and her obsession with the Braddocks, and you have a woman who is all set with her girlfriend spending ANY time with Sat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicoclaws View Post
    So...
    - "butch" is not necessarily a physique, it's more about the look. A petite woman can be butch. A femme woman can be very fit. She-Hulk is considered more femme than butch.
    - I absolutely don't see "she-hulk anatomy" for Rachel here. She has broader shoulders with the suit, which has shoulder pads, as many suits have. Her present actual super hero costume show much thin shoulders. In fact, the space costume you posted show her more muscular than this one.
    - I always assumed Rachel was rather tall, maybe because she was always next to Kitty XD
    - Early Rogue was indeed sporting a rather butch face and hair, but her looks went way more "femme" afterwards.

    and I'm sorry but you're coming off rather ignorant and disingenuous in your misuse of "trigger" or "offense" but I prefer to assume you're actually interested in what you're saying.
    I suggest you find a definition of "butch", it's rather interesting. Maybe read Stone Butch blues.
    Rachel has always been queer coded. Claremont always had an endgame of Rachel and Kitty, but wasn't allowed to do anything with it because of the CCA. Rachel since arriving in 616 has looked more genderqueer in her day clothes than most others. Yes Storm and Rogue also had more punk gender-pushing attire in JRJr days, but not like Rachel. And throughout Excalibur Rachel was sexy but with a tomboy / BDSM flair. Red leather everything, mullet, more muscular build in comparison to Meggan and Kitty, "boy" clothes. Only during her time as Marvel Girl did Claremont try to make her more femme and the inexperienced hero (which still makes no sense. I mean her not knowing how to walk in heels after those Phoenix costumes???) and still not being comfy in those clothes. Once she came back that Schism costume SCREAMED lesbian. Moreso than this one, especially with the pixie cut.

  7. #97
    Astonishing Member Kingdom X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    I think the jealousy of Saturnyne plays a part but there is LITERALLY no love loss between Rachel and Saturnyne. Sat spent the entire first 45 issues of Excalibur trying to kidnap and imprison Rachel for her own gain. Add the trying to seduce and rape Brian and her obsession with the Braddocks, and you have a woman who is all set with her girlfriend spending ANY time with Sat.



    Rachel has always been queer coded. Claremont always had an endgame of Rachel and Kitty, but wasn't allowed to do anything with it because of the CCA. Rachel since arriving in 616 has looked more genderqueer in her day clothes than most others. Yes Storm and Rogue also had more punk gender-pushing attire in JRJr days, but not like Rachel. And throughout Excalibur Rachel was sexy but with a tomboy / BDSM flair. Red leather everything, mullet, more muscular build in comparison to Meggan and Kitty, "boy" clothes. Only during her time as Marvel Girl did Claremont try to make her more femme and the inexperienced hero (which still makes no sense. I mean her not knowing how to walk in heels after those Phoenix costumes???) and still not being comfy in those clothes. Once she came back that Schism costume SCREAMED lesbian. Moreso than this one, especially with the pixie cut.
    Yes to all of this.

    Also some of y’all got some stuff to unpack. Even *if* Rachel was depicted as a little more masc presenting in this book, why is that a problem? Like others have mentioned she’s never been an overly feminine character with exceptions few and far between.

    Lastly, I don’t know how she could come off as creepy when she’s talking about her girlfriend who also spend the entire issue fawning over her and showing her off.

  8. #98
    Astonishing Member CGAR's Avatar
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    Rachel has always come off butch femme to me.

    So how she appears here tracks IMO

    I do dislike that they make her taller than Betsy though.

  9. #99
    Focused Totality Psycwave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    I think the jealousy of Saturnyne plays a part but there is LITERALLY no love loss between Rachel and Saturnyne. Sat spent the entire first 45 issues of Excalibur trying to kidnap and imprison Rachel for her own gain. Add the trying to seduce and rape Brian and her obsession with the Braddocks, and you have a woman who is all set with her girlfriend spending ANY time with Sat.
    I always forget about Saturnyne chasing Rachel back in those days. Kind of makes me hope they get to go back to Otherworld in the future cause I'd love to see that stand-off. Betsy and Rachel really do have so many connections to play off of.

  10. #100
    Braddock Isle Jbenito's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycwave View Post
    I always forget about Saturnyne chasing Rachel back in those days. Kind of makes me hope they get to go back to Otherworld in the future cause I'd love to see that stand-off. Betsy and Rachel really do have so many connections to play off of.
    I find the whole dynamic of Rachel's powers making Saturnyne irrelevant as OmniMaj fascinating. I'd love to see that stand-off too.
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  11. #101
    Amazing Member Iatet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwatson View Post
    I've mentioned this before and agree. I like what is being done with Askani, i like what is being done with betsy, i do not like with no reasoning the visual of rachel is somehow turning into the tall, statuesque figure, that looks good on betsy arm. It just doesn't read as rachel or visually look like rachel and there isn't any real reasoning for it, well i guess there doesn't have to be one, but i find it makes the relationship the least interesting thing for me and i was hopeful but this feels like Rachel is literally just being turned into who should be with betsy not the characters melding together because they are a couple. And the forced jealously from rachel just seems weird. i don't think the "i'll pick up" was cute in regard to tony calling.

    It feels like a visual stereotype. I think that's what the basis of my issue is.
    I find it funny that Betsy is 5'11, and Rachel is 5'6" Yet, Rachel is taller than Betsy? Lol.

    This is Betsy Braddock, WITHOUT HEELS.
    I know those two Cosplayers, and Gillykins is the Psylocke, and is the same height in Real life as Betsy in comic. Rogue is only 1 inch shorter than Rogue would be in life.

    I despise when people draw her so short, lol. /end rant.
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  12. #102
    Amazing Member Iatet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CGAR View Post
    Rachel has always come off butch femme to me.

    So how she appears here tracks IMO

    I do dislike that they make her taller than Betsy though.
    I just posted that below, lol. It's a super pet peeve of mine.

  13. #103
    Astonishing Member Askani's Flame's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Psycwave View Post
    I always forget about Saturnyne chasing Rachel back in those days. Kind of makes me hope they get to go back to Otherworld in the future cause I'd love to see that stand-off. Betsy and Rachel really do have so many connections to play off of.
    Aside from similar powers:
    - Saturnyne is/was obsessed with controlling or owning them
    - both suffered at the hands of Mojo for months
    - both have had their minds and bodies twisted and experimented on
    - both have spent time traveling the multiverse
    - both have died

  14. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kingdom X View Post
    Yes to all of this.

    Also some of y’all got some stuff to unpack. Even *if* Rachel was depicted as a little more masc presenting in this book, why is that a problem? Like others have mentioned she’s never been an overly feminine character with exceptions few and far between.

    Lastly, I don’t know how she could come off as creepy when she’s talking about her girlfriend who also spend the entire issue fawning over her and showing her off.
    Im just going to be honest. This post feels like an example of gaslighting. What exact stuff would people have to unpack? Why would stating the obvious mean there is a personal problem with it? Why is the bigger topic being ignored where Rachel is being turned into an acceptable stereotype that is specifically presented to the public as this is what a gay female couple should look like to have any sort of notoriety. Why doesn't the community seem to have a problem with it? Those are some things i think a lot of people need to unpack in themselves if they are looking for true representation and equality. Why did Rachel need to visually become a stud? Also personality wise she kind of comes of like the hollywood personality type for a stud. i think that is a great question.
    Last edited by jwatson; 06-03-2023 at 05:38 AM.
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  15. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Askani's Flame View Post
    Aside from similar powers:
    - Saturnyne is/was obsessed with controlling or owning them
    - both suffered at the hands of Mojo for months
    - both have had their minds and bodies twisted and experimented on
    - both have spent time traveling the multiverse
    - both have died
    And, all of this amounts to what? It's opposites that attract, or so I've heard...
    Last edited by Micabe; 06-03-2023 at 07:31 AM.

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