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  1. #1
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Default Musings on the Paradox of Mark Waid’s Impact on Superman

    Just some idle shower thoughts that I had this morning that I thought were fascinating:

    1. Despite Waid’s well know reputation for being old school about the Superman/Clark identity split, his portrayal of Superman in Kingdom Come arguably helped solidify the Byrne take that Clark is the real identity. In KC, a Superman who doesn’t have Clark repeatedly fails to make the “correct” choice. Only at the end once he embraces Clark again does he become more like the Superman we know.

    2. Furthermore it’s Kingdom Come that really emphasized Superman as a farmer, to the point that Clark retires back to the farm after his ragequit. Now I’m not sure what Waid’s perspective on Superman becoming a farmer again is, Chris Reeve was the one to establish Superman’s farmer roots and Waid’s hard-on for that take is also well-known, but KC is also meant to be a story where everything goes horribly wrong. Yet in the end we are clearly meant to be happy about Superman once more becoming a farmer again when he starts trying to rebuild Kansas after Parasite & Atom nuked it. Is that simply the best ending Waid could give this Superman after all his screw ups, or is the idea of Superman becoming a farmer again one that Waid loves dearly? I would say Waid, as an old school Pre-Crisis fanboy who loves emphasizing Superman’s intelligence and scientific knowledge in WF, is unlikely to view Superman slinking back to farming with his tail between his legs as a “good” ending… which only makes it funnier that

    3. Another big paradox is Waid hates the Kents being alive to see Clark becoming Superman, but his Birthright origin only further cemented the importance of the Kents being alive to guide Clark through his first steps! Now he’s been upfront that Birthright was a compromise between what he wanted to do and what he thought the mainstream would accept, but regardless his modern update of the origin still ended up conceding the argument there to Byrne.

    4. Final big paradox: Waid hates the Clois marriage, he wanted to get rid of it with Superman 2000, yet KC once again arguably solidified the importance of the marriage. Lois dying is part of what alienates Supes from humanity, and it’s not hard to draw a line from what Waid did in KC, to what the DCAU did with Lois dying and Superman turning evil, ultimately culminating in Injustice and the DCEU.

    Just fascinates me that Waid himself is arguably second in responsibility only to Byrne in rendering the status quo he wants untenable to the mainstream audience. Morrison is the one who actually went and created the status quo Waid wanted to see: single Clark, where Superman is closer to being the real identity, and the Kents die in his youth. Morrison wrote the Elseworld ending story for Superman in All-Star Superman that lets him go out as a hero, who uses his brains to defeat Luthor, and celebrates his Pre-Crisis lore. Instead Waid has been Byrne’s most loyal accomplice in terms of putting over the Post-Crisis foundation to a new generation. That’s amusing as hell to me and I’m sure would have him fuming if anyone pointed it out to him.
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  2. #2
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    This can all easily be explained by realisation that Waid is a mediocre writer. So what he actually wants to say and what he ends up writing sometimes do not match.

  3. #3
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    This can all easily be explained by realisation that Waid is a mediocre writer. So what he actually wants to say and what he ends up writing sometimes do not match.
    Is he though? I mean, give or take a few stories you don't like or certain characterizations you don't agree with, there's a reason some of his work is as lauded as it is.

    He wouldn't be the first writer to be inconsistent or change their view on things.

  4. #4
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HsssH View Post
    This can all easily be explained by realisation that Waid is a mediocre writer. So what he actually wants to say and what he ends up writing sometimes do not match.
    Quality aside, Waid’s big problem is that he’s shown a surprising willingness to bow to what the public perception of Superman is. Problem with that approach is that’s not what the greats do. O’Neil and Miller revolutionized Batman in part because their takes on him were in utter defiance of what Batman was supposed to be, the Adam West show. Likewise Grant Morrison made their mark acting in defiance to what public perception of Batman and Superman was. Their Batman embraced the Pre-Crisis stories that had previously been a source of embarrassment for Batman, and showed how they could could mesh with the post-Miller take. Their work with Superman in All-Star and JLA featured a Superman who was Uber powerful, and showed how he could be compelling, despite common consensus that an OP Superman can’t feature in good stories.

    Waid choosing to compromise is why I think his takes on the character have failed to revitalize Superman. He believes the Kents should be dead. He believes Superman is the real identity. If he truly holds hard to those views amongst others, then he needs to write a story with his views on the character at the center, and to hell with what the general public thinks. A good story will shift how people view a character anyway! He’s only got so many years left, he can’t waste his second chance here on halfway stuff like World’s Finest which is once again bowing to ideas he hates like living Kents for the sake of continuity. I hope his BL book is him finally just giving Byrne the finger and writing Superman in the status quo he wants, which is why it’s only a spiritual sequel to Birthright rather than a direct one. I doubt he’ll be able to make a fan of you, but he might do better when he’s writing about ideas he’s passionate for, rather than half-heartedly making allowances to the market.
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  5. #5
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vordan View Post
    Their work with Superman in All-Star and JLA featured a Superman who was Uber powerful, and showed how he could be compelling, despite common consensus that an OP Superman can’t feature in good stories.
    In fairness, Justice League is never really an example of writing Superman and All Star Superman was dying.

    Waid choosing to compromise is why I think his takes on the character have failed to revitalize Superman. He believes the Kents should be dead. He believes Superman is the real identity. If he truly holds hard to those views amongst others, then he needs to write a story with his views on the character at the center, and to hell with what the general public thinks. A good story will shift how people view a character anyway! He’s only got so many years left, he can’t waste his second chance here on halfway stuff like World’s Finest which is once again bowing to ideas he hates like living Kents for the sake of continuity. I hope his BL book is him finally just giving Byrne the finger and writing Superman in the status quo he wants, which is why it’s only a spiritual sequel to Birthright rather than a direct one. I doubt he’ll be able to make a fan of you, but he might do better when he’s writing about ideas he’s passionate for, rather than half-heartedly making allowances to the market.
    But yeah, I always had a good laugh that Waid's biggest Superman story was just kinda... an updated Man of Steel. I liked it a whole lot and it doesn't sound like time lined up with many opportunities (why he wasn't in for Michelinie or Bendis for examples are beyond me though) but otherwise it's kinda just writing Superman as a supporting character for the past few decades and still not doing anything particularly different.
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    I'm at least a C-Lister! exile001's Avatar
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    Please don't take this as an attack, but this all reads far more like "why isn't Waid writing the Superman I want" rather than "why isn't he writing the Supermen he wants."

    There's nothing offered here about how strongly he feels about "his" Superman or how that meshes with his being a professional and trying to tell the best story he can as opposed to just forcing his own dogma. It feels like you're filling in the rest by yourself.

    I'm pretty sure World's Finest is exactly the book he wants to be writing, as you can see that style evolve over his work the last decade or so, and he's getting to work within a nebulous continuity and era he adores with almost no restrictions on the characters he can choose. I think his joy and enthusiasm is palpable on every page.
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  7. #7
    Not a Newbie Member JBatmanFan05's Avatar
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    I am not a Birthright fan (part of it is the art, I should probably re-read it), but I agree with Waid on the marriage...that it should be the endgame for Clark/Lois, but not ever their "present" status quo. No wife, no son and dead Kents is always my personal preference.

    I think Waid's impact on Superman is Kingdom Come, another DKR-level story for Superman, with the same kind of high regard (the story overall, I mean..the opinions of Superman's role in DKR and Kingdom Come vary of course).
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    Please don't take this as an attack, but this all reads far more like "why isn't Waid writing the Superman I want" rather than "why isn't he writing the Supermen he wants."

    There's nothing offered here about how strongly he feels about "his" Superman or how that meshes with his being a professional and trying to tell the best story he can as opposed to just forcing his own dogma. It feels like you're filling in the rest by yourself.

    I'm pretty sure World's Finest is exactly the book he wants to be writing, as you can see that style evolve over his work the last decade or so, and he's getting to work within a nebulous continuity and era he adores with almost no restrictions on the characters he can choose. I think his joy and enthusiasm is palpable on every page.
    Yeah I'm guessing that Waid, as a professional, knows that when it comes to DC, he needs to stick to the versions of the characters he's given (unless it's an Elseworlds/Black Label story, like he's getting to do now with his 'Last Days of Luthor' book). Kingdom Come was meant to be a possible future for the then-contemporary DCU, and that included the modern Byrne Superman. Birthright was supposed to be a soft reboot/update for the same modern Superman, so there was a limit to how much it could deviate from the basics of that continuity.

    But through Birthright, Waid did make considerable headway in bringing Superman just that little bit closer to the Silver Age version, setting the stage for the rather amalgamated take on Superman that we have today.

  9. #9
    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by exile001 View Post
    Please don't take this as an attack, but this all reads far more like "why isn't Waid writing the Superman I want" rather than "why isn't he writing the Supermen he wants."

    There's nothing offered here about how strongly he feels about "his" Superman or how that meshes with his being a professional and trying to tell the best story he can as opposed to just forcing his own dogma. It feels like you're filling in the rest by yourself.

    I'm pretty sure World's Finest is exactly the book he wants to be writing, as you can see that style evolve over his work the last decade or so, and he's getting to work within a nebulous continuity and era he adores with almost no restrictions on the characters he can choose. I think his joy and enthusiasm is palpable on every page.
    This was prompted by him doing a recent interview with ComicPop where Waid once again expressed strong opinions that “Superman” is the real identity, the Kents should be dead, etc. He hasn’t changed his views, my point is that if Waid truly believes that status quo is how the character works best, he should seize the chance BL offers to write the character the way he wants to. Otherwise I don’t know why he keeps complaining about a status quo that he himself has only helped reinforce. I agree with Waid on certain points, but as an example where I differ is I think the love triangle with Lois is utterly pointless, and don’t agree with him that it’s essential.

    Do that Elseworld story with the way you think Superman should be, and who knows? Maybe it will be popular enough to affect the mainline just like DKR or KC did.
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  10. #10
    Father Son Kamehameha < Kuwagaton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat39 View Post
    Yeah I'm guessing that Waid, as a professional, knows that when it comes to DC, he needs to stick to the versions of the characters he's given (unless it's an Elseworlds/Black Label story, like he's getting to do now with his 'Last Days of Luthor' book). Kingdom Come was meant to be a possible future for the then-contemporary DCU, and that included the modern Byrne Superman. Birthright was supposed to be a soft reboot/update for the same modern Superman, so there was a limit to how much it could deviate from the basics of that continuity.

    But through Birthright, Waid did make considerable headway in bringing Superman just that little bit closer to the Silver Age version, setting the stage for the rather amalgamated take on Superman that we have today.
    I've always gotten the impression that the experience of writing Superman surprises some people. Like they can write a hundred issues of some other character and then with Superman it feels like a rental. A short story that talks directly to the reader and hits some common beats. Which is cool when they put a personal touch on it but awkward on the rare occasion that they trashed some other writers who actually broke ground.

    Waid could be like Byrne or Jurgens in a way because they're huge silver age/Legion fans, and there's just a difference between what they like and what they write. But with comments about who has or hasn't done it right, it gets a little awkward to consider that he hasn't done *his* Superman in all these years
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  11. #11
    Astonishing Member DochaDocha's Avatar
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    KC was just dystopian enough for me to feel like it wasn't a primer on Superman, more like "If X, Y, and Z go wrong, then maybe this could happen." If I had to guess, Waid was just playing within the confines of Elseworlds parameters and unintentionally turned things he didn't like into gospel for many.

    As for Birthright, my theory was that there was some editorial pressure to incorporate Smallville elements, particularly the design of Ma and Pa.

    Overall, I agree that there's some irony here. Waid's gotta live with some of the unintended consequences of his work. If you don't want to deal with fans' making the "wrong" interpretations, your best bet is not to put stuff on the page that would plant the ideas in their minds. Waid probably didn't invent the Lois-Dies-Superman-Goes-Crazy cliche, but he cemented it in the eyes of many. You could say something similar about Superman/Wonder Woman.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuwagaton View Post
    I've always gotten the impression that the experience of writing Superman surprises some people. Like they can write a hundred issues of some other character and then with Superman it feels like a rental. A short story that talks directly to the reader and hits some common beats. Which is cool when they put a personal touch on it but awkward on the rare occasion that they trashed some other writers who actually broke ground.

    Waid could be like Byrne or Jurgens in a way because they're huge silver age/Legion fans, and there's just a difference between what they like and what they write. But with comments about who has or hasn't done it right, it gets a little awkward to consider that he hasn't done *his* Superman in all these years
    Is it though? I mean, Waid may be a fan of the Silver Age Superman, but he also knows that the Byrne Superman (or some variation of him) is what most modern fans/readers are used to, and that he needs to deliver on that expectation.

    Plus, again, Waid's Birthright set the stage for the return of Silver Age elements to the Superman mythos in a big way, including the return of Kara Zor-El Supergirl and a more traditional depiction of Krypton. So in that sense, he definitely made his mark on the character, even though his efforts were soon overshadowed by those of Geoff Johns and Grant Morrison.

  13. #13
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    I think we as fans tend to over examine these things way more than the creators do. 1) KC was written at a time when DC really had a stick up their ass about not referencing the pre-Crisis Superman in any way, shape, or form. And all but came right out and said that KC was supposed to be the future of the then DCU. 2) Waid doesn't have complete autonomy to do whatever he wants with someone else's property. He wanted to use Hal and Barry in KC and was flatly told no. He was also told he had to give Superman the pony tail despite the actual comics themselves removing it later that year. He still had work within the parameters the company gave him. My understanding was that BR was supposed to be an Ultimates style universe. Didio, in one of his "brilliant" ideas, forced him to make it canon in the mainstream universe.
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    I think Waid *is* a great writer, but somewhat proves that the “telephone” nature of continuity writing isn’t some limit on artistic skill and conceptualization anymore than it’s a guarantee of quality.

    Given prompts and parameters from other people, Waid showed an artist could just as easily be inventive and creative as they would be if given free reign if they have the skills and chose to do so.
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    Invincible Member Vordan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I think Waid *is* a great writer, but somewhat proves that the “telephone” nature of continuity writing isn’t some limit on artistic skill and conceptualization anymore than it’s a guarantee of quality.

    Given prompts and parameters from other people, Waid showed an artist could just as easily be inventive and creative as they would be if given free reign if they have the skills and chose to do so.
    Oh damn you just reminded me of something else Waid said in that Pop interview - he thinks he works better when given restrictions and prompts over getting free rein. That’s something I had forgotten. Put his career in a new light, perhaps even though he feels strongly about certain ideas that are at odds with the mainstream, he thinks he can do better work writing within the limits of what Byrne made as opposed to starting over from scratch? But then he was also on board with rebooting Superman, both with Birthright and Superman 2000. So sometimes he feels strongly enough about his beliefs to opt for starting from scratch.
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