Don't Say All Star Superman

[Johnny Thunders!]

I was recently listening to the Midnight Boys, a superhero fandom podcast on the Ringer network.
They uniformly agreed that Batman was the best superhero of our times and that Superman doesn't have the books or modern stories that hold up next to the Bat.

I have a list of my own but most of them are pre-crisis.

Not counting All Star Superman, what are the Superman classics that new fans should read?

My number one:

1. Superman For Tomorrow: Brian Azarello and Jim Lee. I think this story holds up really well and threads the needle with old and new fans.

[CosmeticSkull]

Superman: Birthright

[Vordan]

I was recently listening to the Midnight Boys, a superhero fandom podcast on the Ringer network.
They uniformly agreed that Batman was the best superhero of our times and that Superman doesn't have the books or modern stories that hold up next to the Bat.

I have a list of my own but most of them are pre-crisis.

Not counting All Star Superman, what are the Superman classics that new fans should read?

My number one:

1. Superman For Tomorrow: Brian Azarello and Jim Lee. I think this story holds up really well and threads the needle with old and new fans.

For Tomorrow has a mixed to negative reception from what I’ve seen. You’re not the only one who is a fan but it rarely makes the list of “must-reads”. Honestly it sounds like those guys aren’t big Superman fans in the first place because he’s had a lot of great books recently: Space Age, Superman Smashes The Klan, Up in the Sky, the current PKJ Action Comics run but particularly The Warworld Saga, the current Williamson run, the ongoing Lost mini, Fraction and Lieber’s Jimmy Olsen mini, all great books that came out within the last five years.

[Kuwagaton]

Disclaimer: the easiest and wisest thing IMO is simply pointing to Williamson and Johnson. One is brand new, the other is foundationed deep and light medium in length. Not sure the following matters if those don't work.

I think with a must read list you put yourself under the pressure of using Superman to please someone who isn't pleased by Superman, if that makes sense. I mean we would recommend our favorites pretty much regardless but it's like "is this cool enough for a Wolverine fan? Does this story show him as better than everyone else so a Batman fan falls in line?" Weird questions but I hope you get the gist.

That's aside from wanting something that doesn't connect too deeply. I don't want these ideas to sound smarmy or condescending, because I understand that really simple idea. The fact that Superman was designed for an ongoing format doesn't change the fact that most people can only attend small bits. Many people stay away from ANY comic as some of the stories have been running for longer than our lifetimes. Superman just turned 85.

And all of this to say: hey, that collection is actually pretty great lol. The Superman 85th anniversary trade has a great sampling across his history.

1-4 George Perez, Garcia Lopez, and Gil Kane have fantastic creator samplings in hardcover format if someone likes slightly older comics, and you would get your feet wet with some ongoing narratives in the process.

5 For All Seasons is "Eisner level" stuff. A single, beautiful narrative that doesn't run too long or cover too much old ground, while also not separating you from the ongoing character.

6-8 The New 52 Morrison stuff is very modern and blurs the line between a clear departure and a jump on point in the regular lore.

9 Space Age is great for someone with an indy preference I think. They'd appreciate some of the more clever navel gazing and the Allred brilliance.

10 Superman and the Legion of Superheroes is peak Johns to me. He's so extremely popular and I think this is the most efficient sampling of what he does best and how that overlaps with Superman. Bonus points for technically not being yet another origin of sorts.

[JackDaw]

I think my favourite Superman story is Alan Moore’s “Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?”

But not sure I’d recommend to newcomers…suspect it relies heavily in knowing loads of stuff about Silver Age version of Superman. (Would be interested if others agree/ disagree on that.)

But would certainly recommend Alan Moore’s “For the Man that has Everything”. And the 1996 Superman Adventures series, especially the Mark Millar issues. Short punchy, fast moving, fun.

[MRP]

Superman Smashes The Klan
Superman: For All Seasons
"For the Man Who Has Everything" in Superman Annual 11

-M

[Kuwagaton]

I think my favourite Superman story is Alan Moore’s “Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?”

But not sure I’d recommend to newcomers…suspect it relies heavily in knowing loads of stuff about Silver Age version of Superman. (Would be interested if others agree/ disagree on that.)

But would certainly recommend Alan Moore’s “For the Man that has Everything”. And the 1996 Superman Adventures series, especially the Mark Millar issues. Short punchy, fast moving, fun.

I'd like to think I didn't mention it because it's probably the comic people would own even before the Morrison Quitely story. To me it's significantly more accessible because it does touch on Silver Age characters, but you frankly have to know zero about in the context of the story. Like the tragic end of Bizarro vs the whole Zibarro excursion, y'know? Morrison's story can be penetrated for a dive, but with Moore you wouldn't really have to even do that.

[The Frog Bros]

For newcomers I’d def recommend:

Up in the Sky: classic Superman stuff that really gets at the core of the character.

Smashes the Klan: timeless in every way despite being a period piece of sorts.

PKJ Warworld: gladiator style badassery that may take a newcomer by surprise in a good way.

What I think is great is that there’s no shortage of new material for any potential newcomer. So they can either read traditional classics or some more recent stuff that are among the greats as well.

[K7P5V]

Hopefully this counts, but my choice would definitely be...

"Of Thee I Sing"

[JackDaw]

I'd like to think I didn't mention it because it's probably the comic people would own even before the Morrison Quitely story. To me it's significantly more accessible because it does touch on Silver Age characters, but you frankly have to know zero about in the context of the story. Like the tragic end of Bizarro vs the whole Zibarro excursion, y'know? Morrison's story can be penetrated for a dive, but with Moore you wouldn't really have to even do that.

Cheers. (Having a laugh at myself. Because I'd guessed a completely wrong reason for its omission from your list. I'd guessed that you thought that a lot of the "detail" might be confusing to a newcomer...Superman not being married to Lois, the different relationship with the Legion, etc.)

[Johnny Thunders!]

I should have put what are the "New Classics" that should be included.
Tons of great recs on this list already, I am Omni waiting the PKJ run and I am super curious about the Williamson and Priest books that are out.

I bet the Batman books they are thinking of include:

1. The Dark Knight
2. Batman Year One
3. The Killing Joke
4. Maybe Death in the Family,
5. Black Mirror

My list of new classics:

1. For Tomorrow
2. Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow
3. Kingdom Come
4. Superman Smashes the Klan
5. Final Crisis: Superman Beyond

[Kuwagaton]

Omni waiting PKJ is really good if you can. Most people who aren't intrinsically wired for Superman can certainly buy the first Warworld trade or wait for the next release that has Superman firmly back in Metropolis and go from there.

For Batman's new classics well, I'd hate to see a list without Grant, Dixon, or Morrison. Many runners up too. Superman has the edge in regular comics but DC has put significantly more effort into making Batman available in trades.

Cheers. (Having a laugh at myself. Because I'd guessed a completely wrong reason for its omission from your list. I'd guessed that you thought that a lot of the "detail" might be confusing to a newcomer...Superman not being married to Lois, the different relationship with the Legion, etc.)

Well, I'm also sorta covering for the goof of not mentioning it. The collection has that story, Jungle Line, and Annual #11 so from where I sit, it's just something people must own. As far as the details go it functions in striking the balance, because it explains earnestly and if they have questions then their answer should absolutely be reading more Superman comics. Even though I think the average person would find it somewhat downhill from there.

[Johnny Thunders!]

I am missing big chunks of comic runs from 1985-2000. I would put the Morrison Batman up there for sure and I just don’t know Dixon and Grant that well. I really liked the Knightfall saga so I bet that’s them. My list is not in order, I need to reread Camelot Falls and those Busiek trades. Kingdom Come, that’s a Superman story to me. DC 1,000,000 in a way too. I just wonder if Batman really has more of those chunky game changing runs like All Star Superman.

[Vordan]

I am missing big chunks of comic runs from 1985-2000. I would put the Morrison Batman up there for sure and I just don’t know Dixon and Grant that well. I really liked the Knightfall saga so I bet that’s them. My list is not in order, I need to reread Camelot Falls and those Busiek trades. Kingdom Come, that’s a Superman story to me. DC 1,000,000 in a way too. I just wonder if Batman really has more of those chunky game changing runs like All Star Superman.

That is what really puts Batman over imo. Of course DKR wasn’t just a great comic, it was a comics milestone that completely upended the American comics industry, but what’s really helped Batman are all the great runs he’s had. No Man’s Land for example is an amazing storytelling feat in terms of what a pain in the ass it must have been editorially. In the 21st century the vast majority of Batman runs have been great, from Brubaker & Rucka to Morrison to Snyder, that’s one hell of a chain. Even King was mostly well liked until the wedding fiasco. Only in the current Zdarsky/Ram V era does it feel like Batman’s mainline books aren’t hot.

Superman meanwhile has suffered badly in that regard in the 21st century. Before the current era of Williamson/PKJ, the Busiek/Johns Pre-Flashpoint era was the last time where both Superman books were worth reading imo of course. And Superman usually gets embroiled in these stupid continuity cockfights whereas Batman usually gets to avoid that nonsense and just focus on telling stories. At least now it seems like Superman has the upper hand with regards to how well his books are being received.

[Kuwagaton]

I am missing big chunks of comic runs from 1985-2000. I would put the Morrison Batman up there for sure and I just don’t know Dixon and Grant that well. I really liked the Knightfall saga so I bet that’s them. My list is not in order, I need to reread Camelot Falls and those Busiek trades. Kingdom Come, that’s a Superman story to me. DC 1,000,000 in a way too. I just wonder if Batman really has more of those chunky game changing runs like All Star Superman.

It's a great time for Camelot Falls because they'll be combining the two volumes. I put it right next to For Tomorrow and Birthright but then again I haven't read it in forever.

As far as Batman well, here's the problem:
Whatever Happened - DKR
Man of Steel - Year One
Loeb and Sale - Loeb and Sale
Morrison and Quitely - Miller and Lee
Azzarello and Lee - Loeb and Lee

Action - Detective
Superman - Batman
Adventures - Legends
Man of Steel - Shadow of the Bat

(Rough equivalence, bear with me)
Byrne - Barr
Weezy and Bog - Grant and Breyfogle
Jurgens - Dixon and Aparo
Stern, Michelinie, Ordway, Kesel - Moench et al

Death and Return - Knightfall
Conduit - Contagion
Electric - Legacy
King of the World - No Man's Land
Reloaded - Fugitive
OW@W - Death and the Maidens

That's more or less a look at 1985-2003. It can go on and get switched here and there. You can check Batman or check Superman wherever you prefer. But all of that to say here's the difference: virtually all of Grant's stuff is collected for Batman. Breyfogle has his separate collections. Newton, Colan, Conway, Englehart, Wagner, all of NML, Contagion, Legacy, etc. 1970 - 2000, there's no way Superman has the quantity of collections and maybe it can be justified with sales arguments but the end result is that Batman is more likely to "win" by merely having a chance. What kind of Bates or Swan hardcovers are there? It's like the Bronze age didn't even exist. The 90s had nothing except like, Death and Return and Electric. They collected Zero Hour without reprinting Death of Clark Kent, its immediate sequel, they collected Electric and not Final Night or Superman Red. What is that?