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  1. #1
    Incredible Member Castiel's Avatar
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    Default Has the JL ever been depicted as not being perfect?

    So I like the characters but something that bothers me is how WW, SM, and the others aside from Batman are typically depicted as flawless. I got to thinking about this as I watched Guardians of Justice which is sort of a darker take on the JL and Avengers. Granted watching it is like watching an acid trip at times. It got me wondering would you be okay with the heroes of DC being depicted as darker and more flawed? Like having moments where instead of overcoming despair they are shown giving into it and developing problems like addiction, self-harm, and other stuff like that. Granted I imagine there's been some stories like that in the past, but I can't think of any recent ones where the heroes develop real problems and are shown over coming them.

  2. #2
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    Have you ever heard of Identity Crisis?

  3. #3
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    there was alsoa story where Batman's plans to destroy the justice League got actually used...

  4. #4
    Astonishing Member Stanlos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castiel View Post
    So I like the characters but something that bothers me is how WW, SM, and the others aside from Batman are typically depicted as flawless. I got to thinking about this as I watched Guardians of Justice which is sort of a darker take on the JL and Avengers. Granted watching it is like watching an acid trip at times. It got me wondering would you be okay with the heroes of DC being depicted as darker and more flawed? Like having moments where instead of overcoming despair they are shown giving into it and developing problems like addiction, self-harm, and other stuff like that. Granted I imagine there's been some stories like that in the past, but I can't think of any recent ones where the heroes develop real problems and are shown over coming them.
    The lead up to Infinite Crisis was all about that. That's at least a full year of stories emphasizing that very thing. Check out all three volumes of Wonder Woman by Greg Rucka and all the Superman trades like FOR TOMORROW, RUIN REVEALED, SACRIFICE, JLA CRISIS OF CONSCIENCE, and the like collecting stories of that year. They emphasize those two especially are NOT flawless. Although I never got where the notion that they WRRE flawless got started.

    Going further back you can also read Mark Waid's entire run of JLA and on into Joe Kelly's run. Claremont's run (The 10th Circle) also shows the League's fallibility.
    Last edited by Stanlos; 05-31-2023 at 07:17 PM.

  5. #5
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    All the time. Writers just PRETEND they're perfect and always in the right, some members more than others (mostly Batman).

  6. #6
    Extraordinary Member Lightning Rider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castiel View Post
    So I like the characters but something that bothers me is how WW, SM, and the others aside from Batman are typically depicted as flawless. I got to thinking about this as I watched Guardians of Justice which is sort of a darker take on the JL and Avengers. Granted watching it is like watching an acid trip at times. It got me wondering would you be okay with the heroes of DC being depicted as darker and more flawed? Like having moments where instead of overcoming despair they are shown giving into it and developing problems like addiction, self-harm, and other stuff like that. Granted I imagine there's been some stories like that in the past, but I can't think of any recent ones where the heroes develop real problems and are shown over coming them.
    I think addiction and self-harm are fairly dark extremes for the genre. I also think they can be cheap and cliched if not handled correctly. But there have definitely been plenty of stories where heroes give into despair.

    Putting Batman aside:

    - Hal becoming Parallax is easily the most famous example of a hero giving into despair.
    - Plenty of Elseworlds like Kingdom Come, Red Son, Earth One, and Injustice show Superman giving into despair and misusing his power to some degree. MoS and BvS drew on these themes as well. In fact it's become so common that most Superman fans seem sick of it.
    - Mr. Miracle was one big trippy journey into depression and overcoming suicidal tendencies. Most of what Tom King touches somehow involves those themes.
    - Identity Crisis was mention, it's a no-brainer. I'd say 52 also has several characters dealing with grief and engaging in unhealthy behaviors.

    There are plenty of other examples, but I'll just close by saying that the overcoming of the struggle should be the predominant feeling these heroes instill in the reader; the severity of their struggle is only in service to that. I know a lot of Marvel fans over the years got tired of their characters' flaws overcoming their actual heroism. Overly darkening a hero can have the same flattening effect as depicting a hero that is too flawless.

  7. #7
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    I realize you are mainly referring to the "Big 7" version of the team, but in a more general sense, Justice League Detroit and the JLI-era were far from perfect. In terms of the team, it's members, and it's actions.

  8. #8
    Returning member JT221's Avatar
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    Oh my yes.

    jl1_cvr.jpg

  9. #9
    Extraordinary Member Nomads1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    there was alsoa story where Batman's plans to destroy the justice League got actually used...
    Tower of Babel.

    And, to answer the OPs question... I give you Justice League, the Detroit years.

  10. #10
    Returning member JT221's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nomads1 View Post
    And, to answer the OPs question... I give you Justice League, the Detroit years.
    That's the other one that really came to mind with regard to the original question. Probably the weakest version of the Justice League.
    Keep your hands to yourself, leave other people's things alone, and be kind to one another.

  11. #11
    Extraordinary Member Doctor Know's Avatar
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    The Justice League Detroit years. With then new characters like Vibe, Gypsy, Commander Steel, and Vixen constantly putting themselves down and comparing themselves to the "Super 7" and the league of the Satellite years. The thinking at the time was to have the JL reflect the youthful success of big title books of New Teen Titans, Levitz's classic run on Legion of Super-Heroes and Uncanny X-Men's success. "This isn't your dad's Justice League", was the vibe. It certainly wasn't and certainly isn't anyone's favorite era.


    Justice League International and Justice League Europe. Basically the Detroit years done better. These leagues never compared themselves to the halcyon highs of the Satellite years, and the scope of their adventures was never so big that they were expected to save the world with 5 minutes on the clock every issue. The imperfections come from the Leagues being made of fleshed out, breathing people. With all the vice, virtues, ego and vanity that comes with their daily lives.


    JLA Tower of Babel/ JL Doom. Batman's plans to take down the JL are stolen by Ra's Al Ghul in the comics and Van Savage in the animated adaptation. With friends like that, who needs enemies?


    The Road to Infinite Crisis (2005): Including Identity Crisis, Project OMAC, Day of Vengeance, JLA Crisis of Conscience, Superman Sacrifice, and others. Identity Crisis gets the ball rolling with a terrible story and retcon. All the big creators at the time (Johns, Didio, Waid, Morrison, Meltzer, Rucka) run with it. And keep running with it, all the way to the post Infinite Crisis story, 52 in 2006.


    The Cadmus Arc on Justice League Unlimited: Seasons 1 and 2 of JLU saw the League tested and tempted in a different way. As their enemy was the State itself. The League colors outside the lines and bends the rules to operate, but Cadmus' actions nearly brought open warfare between the two parties. The specter of becoming the Justice Lords/Crime Syndicate was always present in those 2 seasons.


    Anyone remember Cry for Justice and its aftermath?


    There are also a plurality of Elseworld stories with crooked JLs.
    The Justice Lords
    Injustice
    Red Son
    Flashpoint


    I'm sure there are more, but you get the picture.

  12. #12

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    The OP has a history of watching or reading something not from DC Comics, and then thinking that something at DC need to be changed to be more like the thing he just watched or read.

  13. #13
    Better than YOU! Alan2099's Avatar
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    JLA #101 to 106 was a story called "Pain of the Gods." It was written by Chuck Austen, who is generally described as one of the worst comic writers ever.

    It was six issues of different JLA members screwing up and feeling really bad about it.

  14. #14
    Astonishing Member BatmanJones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lightning Rider View Post
    - Mr. Miracle was one big trippy journey into depression and overcoming suicidal tendencies.
    So, suicidal depression or "giving into despair" denotes imperfection? Would anyone say either thing of someone that fails to beat cancer? Did they "give in?" I'm thinking probably not.

    Fighting cancer, even if one loses that fight, is often described as a heroic thing. But fighting and losing the fight against depression is often regarded to be a failing or character flaw.

    That's some rough chuckles. I'm paraphrasing Onstad's Achewood with that last phrase. IOW I don't mean you or anyone is laughing about it; I mean it's messed up. Very.

    It's also the sort of thing that only a person that's never experienced depression or despair could ever think or say.
    Last edited by BatmanJones; 06-01-2023 at 08:55 PM.

  15. #15
    Returning member JT221's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BatmanJones View Post
    So, suicidal depression or "giving into despair" denotes imperfection?
    Well...yeah. Suicidal depression and despair are indicators one's life is not perfect. I do not think the original poster was suggesting that was a good thing, only asking if the JLA was ever written where the heroes were not portrayed as being above the everyday struggles a majority of people go through. Mr. Miracle dealing with depression and suicidal thoughts certainly would fall into that. I would hope we could all agree being in that state of mind is something no one would wish for...that it is not a perfect state of being.
    Last edited by JT221; 06-02-2023 at 07:05 AM.
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