The Problem With Paul

[Kevinroc]

Ignoring the clickbait on the image, I thought this video got at the heart of the matter at how the situation with Paul has been handled. This is not a screaming youtuber who doesn't understand plot and story structure talking about how bad the title is because Peter and MJ aren't together.

[Batman Begins 2005]

I'm a Paul...

[Rift]

I'm a Paul...

I'm a-pauled.

[cranger]

Is it a fair video? Sure. Is it flawed? Yes. He starts off pretty early calling Paul condescending talking to MJ and then refers to a scene in the elevator as a fanstasy scene but it is a flashback, hinting at the comment made by Paul in that same conversation he said Paul was condescending, and instead of recognizing that he doubles down and says Paul is gaslighting. Paul and MJ are both referring to that confrontation with Peter (which we later learn about in #26 was instigated by Peter). Near the end of the video he comes back to this himself and points out the correct view but never takes back the thoughts on Paul. At the end he says Paul and MJ never say I love you to each other, but the first scene he examined showed them exchanging I love you.

The rest of it is typical comic book nitpickiness. Much of it I can get behind, but he picks on Peter using "Kamala Kahn" even though Kamala started off with "Peter Parker" and that is just comics.

Unless you want to see a video nitpicking comics and then saying 'meh' about the whole thing at the end. skip it.

[Xenon]

The youtuber gets to the heart of the matter at the end, that Paul is a representation of something the readers hate more than doing anything himself, but his treatment is just a result of how the story was told.

Paul shows up in issue 1, with MJ, with no explanation. Considering where we left Peter and MJ at the end of Beyond, it's a horrible whiplash, some kind of nightmare we weren't really expecting. AT that point Paul's fate was basically sealed. He was a meme, a representative of the hatreed we felt towards the status quo shift, easily represented by that stupid face. He was the guy who stole Spidey's wife, and everyone hates tthat. We hate it because of OMD. We hate it because they were just together, we hate it because we just don't see how it could happen (the only convincing MJ leaves Peter story was the one in the 70s). So F*** Paul he's awful, he's terrible, he's...really just a stand in for the situation that we hate. And on a certain level that hate is justified, because, like the kids, Paul only exists for one reason, to hurt the reader. That's it, that's his point. He's supposed to be this shocking surprise attack and ion this he succeeds, if nothing else. But that, of course, leads to the enmity that Paul's name engenders now amongst the Spider-Man community.

Of course, if examined like this the truth becomes clearer, now that we have all this information. And the truth is that...Paul is nothing, of course. Paul didn't really do anything. He's passive and mostly silent, probably to keep him from saying anything that would give the readers more ammo to hate him. Ok, yeah, he accidentaly killed every single person on the planet. And in truth he should bear some responsibility for that, even if it was inadvertent, but what we're actually mad about is that MJ's defense of him in that situation feels like a betrayal, again (whether it is or not). She's supposed to be on Peter's side, not trying to compare feeling bad about doing a bad thing with being Spider-Man and having to lie to people to hide that identity (considering Mary Jane is one of the primary beneficiaries of his identity being secret, this is not something she should do). The echos of Sins Past in her defense make the whole thing feel extra icky. And yet this interaction strikes at what the current status quo's problem really is, which is Mary Jane. A woman who has expressed commitment and love for Peter doznes of times over hundreds of issues, a woman who pursued Peter even when he was in love with Gwen and yes came back and hung around him for another shot when he dated Black Cat. Now she just doesn't see him for a while, is stuck with Paul for a while, and all of sudden it's all gone. Now we get an MJ who never loved Peter and was fine with whoever. Her spirit drained her desires ignored, her words ash. Instead of providing answers as to why Paul existed we were instead just reaffirmed of the contrived nature of the plot. MJ is with Paul because the plot demanded it and her personality and agency will be subservient to the demands of the plot. It's the worst elements of Slott's run combined with the sorest subject in Spider-Man fandom.

The problem FOR Paul is that the problem WITH Paul is that he exists at all. He's a weapon to be used against the fandom, something made to feel bad about, and he continues to be a Damocles sword hanging about one of the most beloved characters in the franchise. It's not anything he did it's everything he was created to be.

[Xenon]

Is it a fair video? Sure. Is it flawed? Yes. He starts off pretty early calling Paul condescending talking to MJ and then refers to a scene in the elevator as a fanstasy scene but it is a flashback, hinting at the comment made by Paul in that same conversation he said Paul was condescending, and instead of recognizing that he doubles down and says Paul is gaslighting. Paul and MJ are both referring to that confrontation with Peter (which we later learn about in #26 was instigated by Peter). Near the end of the video he comes back to this himself and points out the correct view but never takes back the thoughts on Paul. At the end he says Paul and MJ never say I love you to each other, but the first scene he examined showed them exchanging I love you.

The rest of it is typical comic book nitpickiness. Much of it I can get behind, but he picks on Peter using "Kamala Kahn" even though Kamala started off with "Peter Parker" and that is just comics.

Unless you want to see a video nitpicking comics and then saying 'meh' about the whole thing at the end. skip it.

I mean this is nitpicking teh nitpicks, as the conclusion of the video is that Paul is fine but that he understands why people might be mad at what Paul represents.

[Lee]

He's a weapon to be used against the fandom

Do you have proof that was the writer's intention? The writer has talked about why he chose to tell this story, and attacking the fandom wasn't part of it.

And the fandom isn't a hivemind. I'm a Spider-Man fan and I'm fine with Mary Jane having a new boyfriend.

[Xenon]

Do you have proof that was the writer's intention? The writer has talked about why he chose to tell this story, and attacking the fandom wasn't part of it.

And the fandom isn't a hivemind. I'm a Spider-Man fan and I'm fine with Mary Jane having a new boyfriend.

The only "why" i've heard is to "confuse new and old readers alike", but that doesn't mean anything? Like ther's what people say and there's what people do, and the purpose of things can be ascertained by their use. Paul is a wedge meant to inflict pain upon the reader.I would argue that this is reaction a fan is going to have unless they don't know Mary Jane's character or relate enough to Peter, but simly because it isn't effective on anyone doesnt' change the intention.

[Spidey_Legend]

The youtuber gets to the heart of the matter at the end, that Paul is a representation of something the readers hate more than doing anything himself, but his treatment is just a result of how the story was told.

Paul shows up in issue 1, with MJ, with no explanation. Considering where we left Peter and MJ at the end of Beyond, it's a horrible whiplash, some kind of nightmare we weren't really expecting. AT that point Paul's fate was basically sealed. He was a meme, a representative of the hatreed we felt towards the status quo shift, easily represented by that stupid face. He was the guy who stole Spidey's wife, and everyone hates tthat. We hate it because of OMD. We hate it because they were just together, we hate it because we just don't see how it could happen (the only convincing MJ leaves Peter story was the one in the 70s). So F*** Paul he's awful, he's terrible, he's...really just a stand in for the situation that we hate. And on a certain level that hate is justified, because, like the kids, Paul only exists for one reason, to hurt the reader. That's it, that's his point. He's supposed to be this shocking surprise attack and ion this he succeeds, if nothing else. But that, of course, leads to the enmity that Paul's name engenders now amongst the Spider-Man community.

Of course, if examined like this the truth becomes clearer, now that we have all this information. And the truth is that...Paul is nothing, of course. Paul didn't really do anything. He's passive and mostly silent, probably to keep him from saying anything that would give the readers more ammo to hate him. Ok, yeah, he accidentaly killed every single person on the planet. And in truth he should bear some responsibility for that, even if it was inadvertent, but what we're actually mad about is that MJ's defense of him in that situation feels like a betrayal, again (whether it is or not). She's supposed to be on Peter's side, not trying to compare feeling bad about doing a bad thing with being Spider-Man and having to lie to people to hide that identity (considering Mary Jane is one of the primary beneficiaries of his identity being secret, this is not something she should do). The echos of Sins Past in her defense make the whole thing feel extra icky. And yet this interaction strikes at what the current status quo's problem really is, which is Mary Jane. A woman who has expressed commitment and love for Peter doznes of times over hundreds of issues, a woman who pursued Peter even when he was in love with Gwen and yes came back and hung around him for another shot when he dated Black Cat. Now she just doesn't see him for a while, is stuck with Paul for a while, and all of sudden it's all gone. Now we get an MJ who never loved Peter and was fine with whoever. Her spirit drained her desires ignored, her words ash. Instead of providing answers as to why Paul existed we were instead just reaffirmed of the contrived nature of the plot. MJ is with Paul because the plot demanded it and her personality and agency will be subservient to the demands of the plot. It's the worst elements of Slott's run combined with the sorest subject in Spider-Man fandom.

The problem FOR Paul is that the problem WITH Paul is that he exists at all. He's a weapon to be used against the fandom, something made to feel bad about, and he continues to be a Damocles sword hanging about one of the most beloved characters in the franchise. It's not anything he did it's everything he was created to be.

Pretty much this.

[Venomsaurus]

Paul is everything wrong with mystery box style storytelling, all while simultaneously trying to bring down one of the strongest and most important women in comics history.

There's a reason when he dies, and he will, fans are going to be cheering.

[Garlador]

I'm a-pauled.

You a-Paul-ogize for that pun this instant.

[Malachi]

Do you have proof that was the writer's intention? The writer has talked about why he chose to tell this story, and attacking the fandom wasn't part of it.

And the fandom isn't a hivemind. I'm a Spider-Man fan and I'm fine with Mary Jane having a new boyfriend.

This feels a little dishonest. I mean yes we don't know this and that behind every decision regarding Pauls character but some things are pretty obvious if you look at the story and it's construction. I would love for a really thourough interview with Zeb Wells or Nick Lowe where they are being asked questions. Real questions with fact checking. So when he says this about Paul we actually follow it up and says for instance that yes "attacking the fandom" might be hyperbole but getting bogged down in semantics like that stops us from looking at what Paul really is suppose to be.

He was until issue 25 not much of a character and arguments can be made that he still isn't. He was there to explain MJ's shift and used as a mysterious element to keep that part of the plot going. Fans werent' suppose to like him. He after all is a noboby/unknown who comes in and drives a wedge between the couple of the franchise and we dont' spend time to get to know him. So he stays a device more then a character. He is not the first character in serialised media to be introduceded like a roadblock or end of road sign but the lack of time spent with him showed us that his primary value lies in plot. When it comes to us readers it was so we should feel primarily two things: anger/irritation at him for splitting up MJ&Peter and curiostity as to how and why. This is also nothgin new or groundbreaking, it has been done before.

This is reinforced with the fact that he was hardly a presence going on in the story. Someone probably has the panels and pages statistics of how much he featured up until this latest arc. Look at this and it's obvious that there where no haste to use him or explore him. As to why then we have the restrictions Wells put on himself when constructing the mystery box. Still good writting is working with limitations like this and still get us interested. Let us know much but not just the key details that you are saving up as reveals.

As the series read the new setup with Peter at odds with everyone seemed to be the important part and the creative decision that would guide the comic. The mystery box in itself was left to slowburn(I am being generous with the word here).

It's not only what Pauls does it's probably even more important to look at what Paul doesn't do. He doesn't appear much, he seems to lack any future impact beyond keeping MJ away from Peter's world(and therfore in many scenarios away from the comic). He secludes MJ away from her normal world and cast. Will he do something in the future? Who knows? Will Zeb Wells state that this was the plan all along? I don't want to say 100% because that is a strong word but yes I will say 100%. This is not a comment on Zeb as a person but more of the role he is being asked to play. Marvel doesn't do misstakes. Just ask Quesada.

If his role is to be MJ's new boyfriend then he should be that and have that role in Spider-man stories. Stories that will have to feature them, not keep them out of the comic.

[blank]

Do you have proof that was the writer's intention? The writer has talked about why he chose to tell this story, and attacking the fandom wasn't part of it.

And the fandom isn't a hivemind. I'm a Spider-Man fan and I'm fine with Mary Jane having a new boyfriend.

Apologies in advanced if this horrific to read and seems a bit disjointed or has poor grammer, in all honesty I only made this account because I kinda wanted to rant about this run and the problems with it.

I would be too, had it not been for the poor way it had been handled. If they had actually broken up and it had been 6 months or the 4 years in the bullshit dimension since then it would have honestly made more sense than the cheap cop out we actually got in issue #25 which implies that Mary Jane couldn't even wait a year for Peter before going into the arms of another(also implying she had no faith that Peter would ever come back for her later in the issue, if she had only moved on in the 3rd or 4th year I would be more understanding but its implied that she began to harbour something for Paul within a year). Furthermore, how lacking in empathy she has for her I guess "ex" would be the fitting term despite having dated him for two years and having just moved in with him before the bullshit 4 years in a dimension, hell she has more empathy for a genocidal and patricidal but apparently well meaning "genius"(who mind you does not even bother to look at a way for her to get home in the 4 years they were stuck, instead wasting time on a "jackpot" watch that seems to be more useless than function and considering the mystical powers of the sigils why didn't he use his knowledge to try to find a way to break through to 616) than her "ex" who was willing to risk everything to ensure her safe return, even going as far to steal from his friends and working with someone he did not fully believe he could trust. And the crux of the problem is that Wells tried to blame Peter, when quite a bit of the bad things to happen in this run are the result of Zeb Wells' version of Mary Jane's actions, from her pushing Peter through a portal despite his obvious advantages in a apocalyptic earth(super-strength danger-sense , to her "moving on", to her lack of empathy or sadness in regards to Peter and their relationship during the run and her attempt to equate Paul and Peter. In all honesty during this run the only thing that Peter has done wrong is the following and the calling, which is creepy it is ultimately understandable, as for him its only been 6 months since they were dating and he was working up the courage to propose(as implied by Spencer). It probably is obvious that I did not mention the children in this because I didn't really find a problem with MJ wanting to stay with children she in part raised (although I find the idea and implications a bit reprehensible). Ultimately there is nothing expressly wrong with Paul yet(other than the fact his depth seems kind of shoehorned in and that the relationship feels forced), it is more with Wells' implications and the action he has his version MJ make. All in all this run is designed to make Peter suffer, as Wells and many other writers believe that Peter must suffer for Spider-Man to succeed. To go on further another problem with Spider-Man of the modern era is how heavily each writer tries to force their OCs to being a key part of Spider-Man's history(Slott), although unlike Slott, Wells' OCs seemed to be centred around a mediocre villain of his creation from his run during Brand New Day and honestly lack anything interesting about them(Other than Spider-Boy which I think is a terrible idea). Realistically Paul/MJ is not a long-term thing nor is Felicia/Peter, within the next 2-4 years we can presume that they will go back to the status quo of teasing Peter/MJ only to rip it away the next run. Throughout this run and the last few years, it has become clear that the editorial does not care about the majority of fans' opinions and quality control.

[Xenon]

Paul is everything wrong with mystery box style storytelling, all while simultaneously trying to bring down one of the strongest and most important women in comics history.

There's a reason when he dies, and he will, fans are going to be cheering.

While I do expect this to be his ultimate fate, my "paul is gay" theory still survives (how is it we got through 26 with none of my theories being either confirmed nor denied except the kids?) and could spare him such a fate. We hate Paul because he's keeping Mary Jane from Peter, he's that weapon that Wells is using against us, but gay Paul pretty radically changes the nature of their relationship. If Paul and MJ are romantic, then his motivations are self-serving. He's standing by his woman. If Paul and Mary Jane aren't romantic though, then Paul is not the man that stole Spider-Man's wife, he's the man that protected Spider-'Man's wife in a harsh and unforgiving world. Who stood by her and comforted her and helped her get through the most difficult period of her adult life (arguably). He's a dear friend and a close ally, almost self-sacrificing. In such a scenario not only do we not actually hate Paul but Paul is kinda a bro for Peter.

That said, the damage done might be too much. It'd be one thing if the rest of this story was competently told but has this awful dagger in its back that is the characterization of MJ. But the rest is crap too, so.....people might just always see him as the symbol of the run even if the relationship is platonic.

You a-Paul-ogize for that pun this instant.

You're both in time out.

This feels a little dishonest. I mean yes we don't know this and that behind every decision regarding Pauls character but some things are pretty obvious if you look at the story and it's construction. I would love for a really thourough interview with Zeb Wells or Nick Lowe where they are being asked questions. Real questions with fact checking. So when he says this about Paul we actually follow it up and says for instance that yes "attacking the fandom" might be hyperbole but getting bogged down in semantics like that stops us from looking at what Paul really is suppose to be.

He was until issue 25 not much of a character and arguments can be made that he still isn't. He was there to explain MJ's shift and used as a mysterious element to keep that part of the plot going. Fans werent' suppose to like him. He after all is a noboby/unknown who comes in and drives a wedge between the couple of the franchise and we dont' spend time to get to know him. So he stays a device more then a character. He is not the first character in serialised media to be introduceded like a roadblock or end of road sign but the lack of time spent with him showed us that his primary value lies in plot. When it comes to us readers it was so we should feel primarily two things: anger/irritation at him for splitting up MJ&Peter and curiostity as to how and why. This is also nothgin new or groundbreaking, it has been done before.

This is reinforced with the fact that he was hardly a presence going on in the story. Someone probably has the panels and pages statistics of how much he featured up until this latest arc. Look at this and it's obvious that there where no haste to use him or explore him. As to why then we have the restrictions Wells put on himself when constructing the mystery box. Still good writting is working with limitations like this and still get us interested. Let us know much but not just the key details that you are saving up as reveals.

As the series read the new setup with Peter at odds with everyone seemed to be the important part and the creative decision that would guide the comic. The mystery box in itself was left to slowburn(I am being generous with the word here).

It's not only what Pauls does it's probably even more important to look at what Paul doesn't do. He doesn't appear much, he seems to lack any future impact beyond keeping MJ away from Peter's world(and therfore in many scenarios away from the comic). He secludes MJ away from her normal world and cast. Will he do something in the future? Who knows? Will Zeb Wells state that this was the plan all along? I don't want to say 100% because that is a strong word but yes I will say 100%. This is not a comment on Zeb as a person but more of the role he is being asked to play. Marvel doesn't do misstakes. Just ask Quesada.

If his role is to be MJ's new boyfriend then he should be that and have that role in Spider-man stories. Stories that will have to feature them, not keep them out of the comic.

Let me also point this out as to why there's no doubt Paul is just a weapon, both Marvel and Zeb Wells himself agree that Peter and Mary Jane end up together. Marvel published a book last year that calls MJ Spider's man's wife and one true love, they published Lost Hunt along side this story where they were still married despite what the status quo should be due to OMD. Wells has said that she's Peter's endgame. So we know this isn't a story about MJ truly moving on. This is just a setback in their relationship. A contrived, forced, poorly told one. It's not 2008. There aren't these two diverging views of what Peter and Mary Jane's relationship should be. The only disagreement at this point is timing.

Apologies in advanced if this horrific to read and seems a bit disjointed or has poor grammer, in all honesty I only made this account because I kinda wanted to rant about this run and the problems with it.

I would be too, had it not been for the poor way it had been handled. If they had actually broken up and it had been 6 months or the 4 years in the bullshit dimension since then it would have honestly made more sense than the cheap cop out we actually got in issue #25 which implies that Mary Jane couldn't even wait a year for Peter before going into the arms of another(also implying she had no faith that Peter would ever come back for her later in the issue, if she had only moved on in the 3rd or 4th year I would be more understanding but its implied that she began to harbour something for Paul within a year). Furthermore, how lacking in empathy she has for her I guess "ex" would be the fitting term despite having dated him for two years and having just moved in with him before the bullshit 4 years in a dimension, hell she has more empathy for a genocidal and patricidal but apparently well meaning "genius"(who mind you does not even bother to look at a way for her to get home in the 4 years they were stuck, instead wasting time on a "jackpot" watch that seems to be more useless than function and considering the mystical powers of the sigils why didn't he use his knowledge to try to find a way to break through to 616) than her "ex" who was willing to risk everything to ensure her safe return, even going as far to steal from his friends and working with someone he did not fully believe he could trust. And the crux of the problem is that Wells tried to blame Peter, when quite a bit of the bad things to happen in this run are the result of Zeb Wells' version of Mary Jane's actions, from her pushing Peter through a portal despite his obvious advantages in a apocalyptic earth(super-strength danger-sense , to her "moving on", to her lack of empathy or sadness in regards to Peter and their relationship during the run and her attempt to equate Paul and Peter. In all honesty during this run the only thing that Peter has done wrong is the following and the calling, which is creepy it is ultimately understandable, as for him its only been 6 months since they were dating and he was working up the courage to propose(as implied by Spencer). It probably is obvious that I did not mention the children in this because I didn't really find a problem with MJ wanting to stay with children she in part raised (although I find the idea and implications a bit reprehensible). Ultimately there is nothing expressly wrong with Paul yet(other than the fact his depth seems kind of shoehorned in and that the relationship feels forced), it is more with Wells' implications and the action he has his version MJ make. All in all this run is designed to make Peter suffer, as Wells and many other writers believe that Peter must suffer for Spider-Man to succeed. To go on further another problem with Spider-Man of the modern era is how heavily each writer tries to force their OCs to being a key part of Spider-Man's history(Slott), although unlike Slott, Wells' OCs seemed to be centred around a mediocre villain of his creation from his run during Brand New Day and honestly lack anything interesting about them(Other than Spider-Boy which I think is a terrible idea). Realistically Paul/MJ is not a long-term thing nor is Felicia/Peter, within the next 2-4 years we can presume that they will go back to the status quo of teasing Peter/MJ only to rip it away the next run. Throughout this run and the last few years, it has become clear that the editorial does not care about the majority of fans' opinions and quality control.

Yes, it was a little difficult to read, but the content was solid. Nice post.

[Vortex85]

Do you have proof that was the writer's intention? The writer has talked about why he chose to tell this story, and attacking the fandom wasn't part of it.

And the fandom isn't a hivemind. I'm a Spider-Man fan and I'm fine with Mary Jane having a new boyfriend.

True they are not a hivemind, but Lowe admitted from the start that this story with MJ and Paul would cause a bunch of fans "anger and sadness". So they knew what the response would likely be for a bunch of fans going into this story. Now that we have seen the result of the story, I don't think they "made up for the anger and sadness" with this story for those who felt it. Maybe those who did not feel it are fine, but nothing they have done so far as made up for it with the fans who felt that from the start.



Also, Lee, you really underplay Mary Jane's importance in the overall lore of the book, I mean even the recently published "Marvel Encyclopedia, 2022 Edition", still states MJ as Spider-Man's "one true love". Her place in the Spider-Man franchise is not changing, no matter what a run in the comics pulls.