The Problem With Paul

[CaptainUniverse]

Man's a monster in disguise. He's never been a threat to Peter because he never found human women appealing, lol.

Exactly, lmao.

[blank]

The problem with this argument is Lowe has not exactly been honest with the audience, nor did Wells “Stick The Landing.” Comparing the death of Kamala with the death of Gwen Stacy for example. The comparison between Ben and Peter for Beyond is another ( especially claiming Ben is better and then turning him into a villain). In neither case, did the results come close to the promise. If the change compares favorably to the previous story the complaints after the initial outcry would lessen to a large extent. Take the replacement of Gwen for MJ for example, or the reverse in the movies, where Kirsten Dunst’s MJ is traded for Emma Stone’s Gwen, in those two cases this is exactly what happened. There are also no lasting complaints about Nick Fury being changed from white to black, and the same applied to McCall ( The Equalizer) from British Edward Woodward to Denzel Washington. Why? The quality of the stories and the acting performances of Washington and Samuel L Jackson’s Nick Fury.

The main point of my argument wasn’t to say that the outrage this run is facing isn't justified, or that the outrage will fade over time. Or even to say that the outrage the characters I listed faced is the same(frankly they are quite different, the main reasoning behind the outrage these characters faced either due to their racial identity or sexual preferences, unlike ASM as the outrage has been caused by the sheer idiocy that plagues this run and the blatant disregard of fans and their opinions by the editorial). The actual point of my argument was that Lee’s argument of people needing to grow up was flawed and that anger is a perfectly normal response to change even in fiction. On a personal note I completely agree with your points about Lowe and Wells. I would like to clarify that I honestly hate this run and everything that it represents(especially with its reliance on shock, anger and variants to drive sales).

[Lukmendes]

In the end, the only lasting "impact" this run has will no doubt be the introduction of the stupendous Paul. We all know Ms. Marvel's death won't last nor likely will MJ's powers. Talk about a lack-luster legacy...

Wait, is Kamala really dead? In an ASM comic? Not in Carol's or even Miles'? What the fuck?

That's like killing Bucky in a Fantastic Four comic...

Are you just saying this because you think this is the only way they'll take Peter x Felicia seriously? Because Zeb Wells is going to destroy that pairing too.

It's so weird that once in a while in places like 4chan or whatever there are people who talk like Marvel is gonna keep Spidey/Felicia ship, because if Marvel disrespects MJ so much because she's such a big deal as a love interests, it means that Felicia will either never get treated as that much of a big deal, or, if she is treated like that, she'll be disrespected too.

Like seriously, this shouldn't be hard to notice if you're aware of the reasons lol.

Paul is going to age like milk. Or like a Judas Traveller. Once this run is over he’ll disappear into obscurity and become a Spidey trivia answer.

Judas Traveler was a mess but he at least did cool shit and has an awesome, recognizable design, Paul is definitely gonna age worse at this rate lol.

The problem with Paul Rabin...is that his beard seems to be growing at an alarming rate. If he isn't stopped, his beard could consume the entire Multiverse.

He got a last name and it's the same as the villain who cursed MJ? Lol.

Anyways, the biggest problem with Paul is that this isn't canon:



.

[CaptainUniverse]

He got a last name and it's the same as the villain who cursed MJ? Lol.

Yup, oh...and the kids were never real! They dead now. Paul's dad's Earth-616 counterpart ate them. Or something convoluted like that.

Also, har har. Very funny

[Majesty]

Anyways, the biggest problem with Paul is that this isn't canon:



.

He is... the most interesting Paul in the world.

aka The Superior Tony Stark.

I mean think about it for a moment :3

He's also not just stopping with THIS universe... he's already targeted the next.

[Lukmendes]

Yup, oh...and the kids were never real! They dead now. Paul's dad's Earth-616 counterpart ate them. Or something convoluted like that.

So you're telling me that in the end, it wasn't a father eating his kids, but a grandfather eating his grandchildren?

Revolutionary Wells, very much so .

Also, har har. Very funny

Who's joking? .

He is... the most interesting Paul in the world.

aka The Superior Tony Stark.

I mean think about it for a moment :3

He's also not just stopping with THIS universe... he's already targeted the next.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FxjH2rYW...jpg&name=large

Spidey and Invincible did have a crossover once, means that Paul is going everywhere where Spidey even remotely interacted with other characters.

DC is next .

[Venomsaurus]

Fun fact, when Invincible did a very similar story to this (Only Mark was gone for years, which was like a week for him) they had a Paul characte too.

Kirkman, being a smart writer, knew to not waste our time on the idiot no one wants to read about and introduced him as someone Eve dated once, then never saw again. He was a massive douche everyone was happy to see written out as quickly as possible.

Wells should take notes.

[Lee]

Sometimes your girlfriend breaks up with you, starts seeing another man, and he's a decent guy who's trying his best and treats her well.

It's very easy to characterise an ex's new partner as a villain or an enemy, and a lot of the entertainment I grew up with certainly took that approach with its romances. I think it's an important lesson for the readers to learn, especially the teenage boys and young men.

It was sad when things didn't work out between Peter and Betty, but Ned Leeds was a good man.

[Xenon]

Wait, is Kamala really dead? In an ASM comic? Not in Carol's or even Miles'? What the fuck?

That's like killing Bucky in a Fantastic Four comic....

I'm sorry i had to cut out the rest of your post for re-surfacing that awful....thing.......

Kamala had the right idea. Wells put her in the comic and she GTFO as quickly as possible. She had to die to do it but it was a price she happily paid (they also hav ealready leaked a series that she comes back in).

Fun fact, when Invincible did a very similar story to this (Only Mark was gone for years, which was like a week for him) they had a Paul characte too.

Kirkman, being a smart writer, knew to not waste our time on the idiot no one wants to read about and introduced him as someone Eve dated once, then never saw again. He was a massive douche everyone was happy to see written out as quickly as possible.

Wells should take notes.

There's something to be said about how even if its a story you COULD tell it's not a story you SHOULD tell. And sometimes it's neither (this is one fo those). LIke let's play a pretend game where it was Felicia instead of MJ that got trapped, but everything else is the same, the same relationship status and everything. THat story is much better because Felicia has not been written so that that behavior is completely unacceptable (honestly the OOC part would then be her just being a boring mom for six months). They could have told that story....but I still don't want to read it. Because why would I want to read a story about the hero getting NTR'd?

[Lukmendes]

Sometimes your girlfriend breaks up with you, starts seeing another man, and he's a decent guy who's trying his best and treats her well.

It's very easy to characterise an ex's new partner as a villain or an enemy, and a lot of the entertainment I grew up with certainly took that approach with its romances. I think it's an important lesson for the readers to learn, especially the teenage boys and young men.

It was sad when things didn't work out between Peter and Betty, but Ned Leeds was a good man.

Ned was also really boring and barely a character in early comics lol.

All he did was work as an extra roadblock between Spidey and Betty, a relationship that was already going to shit for a while anyways.

Paul is more frustrating 'cause the relationship between Spidey and MJ was doing fine, then we get fucking timeskip and suddenly she's dating this nothing character, because mystery boxes.

All the things I see and hear about Paul is that he's just kinda there, and while the way the fanbase villainize him gets silly, it is annoying a character who's doing nothing is getting on the way of Spidey/MJ, specially since, again, it happened on a fucking timeskip.

I'm sorry i had to cut out the rest of your post for re-surfacing that awful....thing.......

Hah, figures someone else posted it here.

Kamala had the right idea. Wells put her in the comic and she GTFO as quickly as possible. She had to die to do it but it was a price she happily paid (they also hav ealready leaked a series that she comes back in).

Kamala used her super-hero knowledge to find a way out of the comic, clearly .

There's something to be said about how even if its a story you COULD tell it's not a story you SHOULD tell. And sometimes it's neither (this is one fo those). LIke let's play a pretend game where it was Felicia instead of MJ that got trapped, but everything else is the same, the same relationship status and everything. THat story is much better because Felicia has not been written so that that behavior is completely unacceptable (honestly the OOC part would then be her just being a boring mom for six months). They could have told that story....but I still don't want to read it. Because why would I want to read a story about the hero getting NTR'd?

Honestly while you could maybe say this would be "less" bad, it'd still be terrible for Felicia of all fucking people to become a boring mother for six months, she's a character who's out to do her own thing, and she has shown no interest in motherhood, and even if she did, it's seriously unlikely she would become a boring mother for the sake of it... And even if we can make a case that they could justify a character like Felicia to become a boring mother (After all, plenty of women had wild earlier years only to later settle down and just become housewifes), we'd have to actually see it happening organically, it just couldn't happen on a motherfucking timeskip.

[Venomsaurus]

There's something to be said about how even if its a story you COULD tell it's not a story you SHOULD tell. And sometimes it's neither (this is one fo those). LIke let's play a pretend game where it was Felicia instead of MJ that got trapped, but everything else is the same, the same relationship status and everything. THat story is much better because Felicia has not been written so that that behavior is completely unacceptable (honestly the OOC part would then be her just being a boring mom for six months). They could have told that story....but I still don't want to read it. Because why would I want to read a story about the hero getting NTR'd?

This is exactly how I feel. Maybe, on paper, there's a story where MJ finds a family and happiness outside of Peter that could have worked. But it would take a damn good writer, who was absolutely certain of what he's doing and sticks to his guns to pull it off. Not this wishy-washy vague crap that tells us nothing but half-answers at best. Maybe, MAYBE a Robert Kirkman or Ed Brubaker, writers who excel at long form storytelling over several arcs. But Zeb Wells just isn't at that level. He's written good stuff, he has his fans for sure, but he's never written anything on the level of Invincible, Walking Dead, Criminal, Captain America, Femme Fatale, the list goes on and on of stellar banger comics that these writers have proven can tell stories over a long period of time brilliantly.

And you know, to be fair to Wells, that takes a lot of work. They have to plan this crap out years in advance sometimes. He probably didn't get that kind of time to plant and plan. Even if he had a plan, his 'writing experiment' idea applied to long-form storytelling just does NOT work. Issue to issue it can work, but long-form stories need very careful and specific planning to pull off. You want every hint and clue to tease something, give us a nugget of the truth, but not the whole truth. It's tricky. So going in without a full plan, you're just asking for disaster.

Then there's the fact that you continue to so perfectly hit the nail on the head every time you remind me this is all just a terribad NTR Doujin without the sexy bits. And it's not even a GOOD NTR story. The villain/stealer is a bland generic nice guy and we have no idea WHY she chooses him over her actual love interest of years.

Like seriously, why does MJ love Paul? Because so far, the only answers are they raised some kids together, touched fingers once, stared at each other in a field and she thinks him helping in genocide is A-Okay. For some messed up reason I cannot fathom.

Honestly mind control is starting to be the only explanation that would make sense.

Edit: Forgot about your mention of Felicia. Funny enough, I feel Spencer even addressed this kind of idea nicely in his run. When Felicia is protecting young Billy Connors during Kraven's big hunt-fest-a-palooza. She talks about not being a maternal person but having to try for him and she honestly does a pretty good job taking care of him during the crisis. So Felicia being a maternal character could work in that role. Though, again, I'd really just rather this kind of nonsense not take place at all in these comics with time travel mayan BS.

[Garlador]

Edit: Forgot about your mention of Felicia. Funny enough, I feel Spencer even addressed this kind of idea nicely in his run. When Felicia is protecting young Billy Connors during Kraven's big hunt-fest-a-palooza. She talks about not being a maternal person but having to try for him and she honestly does a pretty good job taking care of him during the crisis. So Felicia being a maternal character could work in that role. Though, again, I'd really just rather this kind of nonsense not take place at all in these comics with time travel mayan BS.

Yeah, can we just NOT kidnap women in comics, trap them in other dimensions with only ONE other adult until the loneliness and solitude drives them together, force kids on them against their will, and then try and say "that's good idea"?

I don't care if it was Mary Jane, Felicia, Carol Danvers, or a brand new female character with no connection to Peter at all. It's still a very sexist kind of story to tell with some incredibly problematic implications.

I can't believe ANYONE greenlit it.

[Daibhidh]

It's not as if Peter and MJ's relationship is just based on them having fallen in love. Even if MJ spends so much time apart from Peter that her love would fade that wasn't the grounds of their relationship. They didn't start out with a crush on each other and then try to build everything on top of that. (MJ may have had a bit of a crush on Peter under Lee, but it's over by the eighties.)
It was a relationship built on the fact that they are two best friends who happen to find each other hotter than an oven. You might fall out of love with someone and wonder what you saw in them, but even if you fall out of touch with a best friend you still remember them fondly.

[Garlador]

It's not as if Peter and MJ's relationship is just based on them having fallen in love. Even if MJ spends so much time apart from Peter that her love would fade that wasn't the grounds of their relationship. They didn't start out with a crush on each other and then try to build everything on top of that. (MJ may have had a bit of a crush on Peter under Lee, but it's over by the eighties.)
It was a relationship built on the fact that they are two best friends who happen to find each other hotter than an oven. You might fall out of love with someone and wonder what you saw in them, but even if you fall out of touch with a best friend you still remember them fondly.

THANK YOU.

Modern writers almost seem to forget that some of the best MJ/Peter moments were LONG before they were an official couple. She was Gwen's best friend. She supported them. They double-dated with her and Harry. She was supportive and understanding of Peter as a friend LONG before their romance truly blossomed. It wasn't rushed either. Their affection grew over time, and MJ gave Peter a LOT of time to grieve over Gwen (I don't think she made the first move either, if I'm remember correctly). She was processing her own grief. When she revealed she knew Peter was Spider-Man, they weren't dating either. She openly expressed her cynicism with "true love" and her fears about commitment and being trapped in a broken marriage.

There is a history there that NO OTHER CHARACTER has with Peter. That shared trauma of losing people close to them both (Gwen and Harry). Of keeping secrets and living a double-life (Spider-Man and "party girl"). Marvel could introduce a brand new girlfriend for Peter tomorrow, but she'd have to power through 40 years of deeply personal, intimate, NON-romantic bonding that Peter and MJ shared together.


Let's face it. That ain't happening.

[Xenon]

Kamala used her super-hero knowledge to find a way out of the comic, clearly .

Reborn anew (comic where kamala will be revived):

Cyclops: That was very brave of you to sacrifice yourself to save Mary Jane Kamala, how did you figure out that he'd die if he killed you?
Kamala: Wait he died? I'm gonna be real with you guys for a sec I just wanted out.

Honestly while you could maybe say this would be "less" bad, it'd still be terrible for Felicia of all fucking people to become a boring mother for six months, she's a character who's out to do her own thing, and she has shown no interest in motherhood, and even if she did, it's seriously unlikely she would become a boring mother for the sake of it... And even if we can make a case that they could justify a character like Felicia to become a boring mother (After all, plenty of women had wild earlier years only to later settle down and just become housewifes), we'd have to actually see it happening organically, it just couldn't happen on a motherfucking timeskip.

Oh, yeah, like i referenced earlier the whoel hanging roudn the house and just being a mom thing isn't her style, so it create problems there, and I'm not advocating for it. Jut that the setup woudln't be out of character and so it would be, as you say "less bad". Still very much a story you SHOULD NOT tell.

This is exactly how I feel. Maybe, on paper, there's a story where MJ finds a family and happiness outside of Peter that could have worked. But it would take a damn good writer, who was absolutely certain of what he's doing and sticks to his guns to pull it off. Not this wishy-washy vague crap that tells us nothing but half-answers at best. Maybe, MAYBE a Robert Kirkman or Ed Brubaker, writers who excel at long form storytelling over several arcs. But Zeb Wells just isn't at that level. He's written good stuff, he has his fans for sure, but he's never written anything on the level of Invincible, Walking Dead, Criminal, Captain America, Femme Fatale, the list goes on and on of stellar banger comics that these writers have proven can tell stories over a long period of time brilliantly.

And you know, to be fair to Wells, that takes a lot of work. They have to plan this crap out years in advance sometimes. He probably didn't get that kind of time to plant and plan. Even if he had a plan, his 'writing experiment' idea applied to long-form storytelling just does NOT work. Issue to issue it can work, but long-form stories need very careful and specific planning to pull off. You want every hint and clue to tease something, give us a nugget of the truth, but not the whole truth. It's tricky. So going in without a full plan, you're just asking for disaster.

I think this is trying to be too concilatory. I don't think there's any story you can write that works where she moves on outside of maybe Peter's death and even then. It's just too ingrained in her character and she's come back to him too many times. Peter's her gold medal and you might be able to write her a silver medal story there's only one gold.

Then there's the fact that you continue to so perfectly hit the nail on the head every time you remind me this is all just a terribad NTR Doujin without the sexy bits. And it's not even a GOOD NTR story. The villain/stealer is a bland generic nice guy and we have no idea WHY she chooses him over her actual love interest of years.

Like seriously, why does MJ love Paul? Because so far, the only answers are they raised some kids together, touched fingers once, stared at each other in a field and she thinks him helping in genocide is A-Okay. For some messed up reason I cannot fathom.

Honestly mind control is starting to be the only explanation that would make sense.

My assumption remains that he doesn't bother to write them falling in love because it remains a big fake out (whether that was his initial intention or not, there' s areason the words "love you too" have not been uttered since issue 3, even in situations that clearly warrant them (like when your notBoyfriend is taking your fake kids to safety and you're being hunted by a malevolent dark god). But even the secondary assumption is that he doesn't write it because he knows he can't sell it so why waste time on it? Like he's not going to be able to write a story where we're like "yes actually i can see why MJ would choose this man over the hero of this comic we are reading". That ain't ever happenin'. I mean NTR plots almost always are bad anyway, but that's just another reason it doesn't belong here.

Edit: Forgot about your mention of Felicia. Funny enough, I feel Spencer even addressed this kind of idea nicely in his run. When Felicia is protecting young Billy Connors during Kraven's big hunt-fest-a-palooza. She talks about not being a maternal person but having to try for him and she honestly does a pretty good job taking care of him during the crisis. So Felicia being a maternal character could work in that role. Though, again, I'd really just rather this kind of nonsense not take place at all in these comics with time travel mayan BS.

Felicia will be a fine mom at some point, but you'd have to do a lot of work as Lukmendes said to get her to a point where that was a believable situation for her.

Yeah, can we just NOT kidnap women in comics, trap them in other dimensions with only ONE other adult until the loneliness and solitude drives them together, force kids on them against their will, and then try and say "that's good idea"?

I don't care if it was Mary Jane, Felicia, Carol Danvers, or a brand new female character with no connection to Peter at all. It's still a very sexist kind of story to tell with some incredibly problematic implications.

I can't believe ANYONE greenlit it.

Like just so I'm clear, the point of that Felicia hypothetical is that while it's a story you COULD tell in that it wasn't contrary to her character for her to have flexible loyalty, it's stll NOT A STORY YOU SHOULD TELL BECAUSE IT SUCKS. Subjectively of course. but I have no interest in reading stuff about the hero getting cucked, especially not when the comic is treating it like it's some reasonable decision he should move on from.

It's not as if Peter and MJ's relationship is just based on them having fallen in love. Even if MJ spends so much time apart from Peter that her love would fade that wasn't the grounds of their relationship. They didn't start out with a crush on each other and then try to build everything on top of that. (MJ may have had a bit of a crush on Peter under Lee, but it's over by the eighties.)
It was a relationship built on the fact that they are two best friends who happen to find each other hotter than an oven. You might fall out of love with someone and wonder what you saw in them, but even if you fall out of touch with a best friend you still remember them fondly.

The Layers of garbage in this story are deep. Like evne if you could convince me that MJ was choosing Paul over Peter in character, you could never convince me that she would be that cold about it. Like that hospital scene, again, infamously bad. The Mj in that hospital holds Peter Parker in contempt. There is no love or warmth in her heart for him. Which is...just wrong.