Are DC heroes and villains really overpowered?

[Harrynorine]

So we often hear on comicvine that Superman and those within his tier have planet+ to solar system level destructive capability, can move at FTL+ speeds and it would take a supernova to even damage them. We often hear about the claim of MFTL+ Flash and how no one should be able to touch him or how Green Lanterns shields have picosecond reaction time and can cut atoms down to subatomic level etc.



(For example, logic would dictate that in this clash between "god like" beings, all human combatants would be vaporize/killed by the sheer force of them clashing)

Now, In a lot of DC events, we have a human characters,like Batman, somehow survive multiple encounters involving these heroes/villains. For example, Shazam who is a superman level opponent can't react to Batman pressing a knife into him.



Batman is somehow able to hit Reverse Flash with dagger to the foot. If we assume reverse and flash have similar reaction time, and assume their reaction time is MFTL+, this could never happen. It would be like watching someone slowly move their hands down to stab you and not react to it. A mentally unhinged batman has difficulty in apprehending Nightwing, despite having all of Superman's powers.



We see through human engineering and tech, Luthor is able to keep up in a direct conflict with Superman, who by all accounts should be able to one shot him, if the claims of his speed and strength were true (aka FTL+ speed and planetary+ strength). Hell, just donning on protective armor, batman is able to survive and put up some what of a fight against the likes of black adam.

So we have a bit of a disconnect. How can a seemingly normal man like batman and green arrow consistently survive in these conflicts with supposed FTL+, solar system+ destroying beings? It would be like an ant being on the ground, while two human males were fighting. Thus, one has to wonder whether comic books over embellish and overhype the heroes abilities for the reader. This would explain the disconnect between a character's low showing and high showing.

[Sutekh]

It was commented on back in the day when Black Adam punched everyone in Khandaq to death because he was pissy about something that he wasn't holding back, the way other people in his weight class like Superman and Captain Marvel do instinctively. Given the force at which someone like Superman can punch, an all-out 'holding nothing back' punch from Superman in Earth's atmosphere would probably kill everyone on the planet, as the shockwave blasted the atmosphere on that side of the planet into space, causing life-on-Earth-is-now-over levels of devastation. That this doesn't happen indicates that he chooses to hold back a titch.

Even Black Adam, who talks big talk about going all-out all the time, hasn't punched anyone hard enough to rupture the internal organs (and eardrums!) of people across the globe at the same time as he ignites the atmosphere.

When this gets a little quiffy is when Superman, etc. are being punched by people like Doomsday, who probably does not give a flying fig if he devastates the planet as a side effect of delivering a punch equal to an exploding sun in the middle of downtown Metropolis. (He might even consider the resulting extinction-level event a bonus...)

Comics, in general, and superhero comics, especially, require a bit of willing suspension of disbelief. We all draw that line in different places, and say, 'This far! No further!' sometimes at wildly inconsistent points depending on our preferences. If you are not a fan of figures like Superman, Flash and Green Lantern kind of breaking your suspension of disbelief, there are a ton of 'less powerful' characters like Vixen or Booster Gold or Aquaman (or entire teams of them, like the Titans, Outsiders, Birds of Prey, etc.) that are generally not quite so over the top.

And then there's a whole tier of characters that just go meta. Magicians and mystical powerhouses like Dr. Fate and the Specter, who can essentially do anything the writer wants them to do, and to whom even 'OP' characters like Superman are helpless-suffocating-goldfish-waiting-to-happen after a quick finger waggle.

There's always a bigger fish.

[Stanlos]

So we often hear on comicvine that Superman and those within his tier have planet+ to solar system level destructive capability, can move at FTL+ speeds and it would take a supernova to even damage them. We often hear about the claim of MFTL+ Flash and how no one should be able to touch him or how Green Lanterns shields have picosecond reaction time and can cut atoms down to subatomic level etc.



(For example, logic would dictate that in this clash between "god like" beings, all human combatants would be vaporize/killed by the sheer force of them clashing)

Now, In a lot of DC events, we have a human characters,like Batman, somehow survive multiple encounters involving these heroes/villains. For example, Shazam who is a superman level opponent can't react to Batman pressing a knife into him.



Batman is somehow able to hit Reverse Flash with dagger to the foot. If we assume reverse and flash have similar reaction time, and assume their reaction time is MFTL+, this could never happen. It would be like watching someone slowly move their hands down to stab you and not react to it. A mentally unhinged batman has difficulty in apprehending Nightwing, despite having all of Superman's powers.



We see through human engineering and tech, Luthor is able to keep up in a direct conflict with Superman, who by all accounts should be able to one shot him, if the claims of his speed and strength were true (aka FTL+ speed and planetary+ strength). Hell, just donning on protective armor, batman is able to survive and put up some what of a fight against the likes of black adam.

So we have a bit of a disconnect. How can a seemingly normal man like batman and green arrow consistently survive in these conflicts with supposed FTL+, solar system+ destroying beings? It would be like an ant being on the ground, while two human males were fighting. Thus, one has to wonder whether comic books over embellish and overhype the heroes abilities for the reader. This would explain the disconnect between a character's low showing and high showing.

Your logic isn't wrong. The human characters should have been paste. In my head, I always assume that Zauriel, Hessia, Kilowog, Oberon, and Shayera have used whatever exotic materials they brought and combined it with earth materials at Vixen's direction to fabricate a kind of light armour for thwm and that is why the mortals haven't been pulped.

[NaVi]

that's why the Manga>comic, in the manga their worlds are built to make the most of the abilities of the characters, the world of the comic is the opposite, they are built to limit the characters, if you are a human without powers (or someone that I cannot change the world with them) welcome, this is your house, if you have powers you become a useless, weak and stupid clown that only serves to make humans look good. So the heroes level Superman, WW, Flash, etc. are powerful on paper but the human characters are the true gods and whose power would have to be reduced.

[babyblob]

Batman over the years has went from normal peak level human who at times had trouble with a small group of gang member.

Over the years he just went to god like powers. I know there has to be a suspension of disbelief in comics but at time it is hard to make that leap when we see Batman having issues with someone like Killer Croc yet he puts on a suit and hangs with the likes of Superman and Darkseid. Why does he now just use that suit on Killer Croc and be done with it.

THere are times where other then making Batman a human god at times some writers dont know what to do with him. One minute he goes into detective mode and goes hand to hand. Other times he goes full in on the gadets, other times it is a mix of the two.

I just have a hard time believing he has a rough time fighting his rogues then goes tow to toe with Zoom and cosmic beings.


But I think that DC Heroes and Villains as a whole are more powered than their Marvel Counter parts.

[Stanlos]

that's why the Manga>comic, in the manga their worlds are built to make the most of the abilities of the characters, the world of the comic is the opposite, they are built to limit the characters, if you are a human without powers (or someone that I cannot change the world with them) welcome, this is your house, if you have powers you become a useless, weak and stupid clown that only serves to make humans look good. So the heroes level Superman, WW, Flash, etc. are powerful on paper but the human characters are the true gods and whose power would have to be reduced.

Wow.

It's like, I knew this and have internally raged against it. But seeing it laid out so raw...
Wow. It's kind of a major disservice

[Doctor Know]

So we have a bit of a disconnect. How can a seemingly normal man like batman and green arrow consistently survive in these conflicts with supposed FTL+, solar system+ destroying beings? It would be like an ant being on the ground, while two human males were fighting. Thus, one has to wonder whether comic books over embellish and overhype the heroes abilities for the reader. This would explain the disconnect between a character's low showing and high showing.

A character is only as powerful and competent, as the writer wants them to be. The power of the pen trumps all logic in terms of comic books. Things have devolved to the writers ostensibly 'smashing action figures together'.

Have a little peep at two threads I made on the top. DC and Marvel characters Jobbed by the writers.

DC
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ers-On-The-Job

Marvel
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ers-On-The-Job


Take special notice of:

Tom King jobbing Captain Atom with his own creation Gotham Girl. A character who got Superman level strength and speed by shooting up Bane's Venom. Because, that's how it works.

Tom King jobbing Bats, Supes and WW with Harley Quinn in Heroes in Crisis.

Bendis upscaling Luke Cage to punch out the Thing, Vision and Namor on his New Avengers run. Luke Cage who has always been a street level brawler.

Jason Aaron having Moon Knight pecker slap Thor with his own hammer and then take it from him.


Also note how human characters like Batman, Damian and Deathstroke never fail to punch above their weight class. Power of the pen, me old mates.

[Stanlos]

A character is only as powerful and competent, as the writer wants them to be. The power of the pen trumps all logic in terms of comic books. Things have devolved to the writers ostensibly 'smashing action figures together'.

Have a little peep at two threads I made on the top. DC and Marvel characters Jobbed by the writers.

DC
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ers-On-The-Job

Marvel
https://community.cbr.com/showthread...ers-On-The-Job


Take special notice of:

Tom King jobbing Captain Atom with his own creation Gotham Girl. A character who got Superman level strength and speed by shooting up Bane's Venom. Because, that's how it works.

Superman level strength from ....BANE VENOM INJECTION???!

LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL
Hilarious! Tell me another one!

[Sutekh]

Bendis upscaling Luke Cage to punch out the Thing, Vision and Namor on his New Avengers run. Luke Cage who has always been a street level brawler.

Cage could lift like, 2 tons. Hell on wheels against street crime or gang enforcers, but he was the immovable object (impenetrable skin, relatively low damage) to Danny's unstoppable force (no defensive powers, ridonkulously powerful Iron Fist attack). That made them a great team. One heavy D, one major offensive lineman.

Meanwhile, Bendis did the exact reverse with Tigra. She got assaulted and manhandled by the Hood, some nameless schmuck he dredged up with no superhuman strength, while she can lift five tons, more than twice as much as Cage! (Plus superhuman endurance, agility, etc.) He consistently underpowered Tigra, and cast her in the role of 'girl victim,' while Cage was cast in the role of 'big strong guy,' despite Tigra being much stronger!

But that's not what he wanted to write. So screw their established abilities. Just like he generally says 'screw their characterization,' and writes the story he wants, mangling whatever characters he has on hand to fit into the narrative he wants to tell.

And as you've noted, Bendis is far from the only writer to do this. Tom King, Jason Aaron (who usually at least gives explicit power-ups to his favorites with stuff like Thor's hammer or possession by the Phoenix, rather than just not bother reading what has come before).

[The True Detective]

Batman over the years has went from normal peak level human who at times had trouble with a small group of gang member.

Over the years he just went to god like powers. I know there has to be a suspension of disbelief in comics but at time it is hard to make that leap when we see Batman having issues with someone like Killer Croc yet he puts on a suit and hangs with the likes of Superman and Darkseid. Why does he now just use that suit on Killer Croc and be done with it.

THere are times where other then making Batman a human god at times some writers dont know what to do with him. One minute he goes into detective mode and goes hand to hand. Other times he goes full in on the gadets, other times it is a mix of the two.

I just have a hard time believing he has a rough time fighting his rogues then goes tow to toe with Zoom and cosmic beings.


But I think that DC Heroes and Villains as a whole are more powered than their Marvel Counter parts.

Why would he need a powerful suit to stop Croc? It's like asking why doesn't a hunter who owns high powered rifles shoot a squirrel that got into his house instead of shooing it out with a broom. If Croc can be stopped under normal means there's no need for a suit capable of fighting Superman. Does Iron Man use Hulk/Phoenix/God buster armors to take on opponents who don't require it? This is entertainment first and foremost nobody wants to read a realistic story where Batman beats all of his rogues in 2 seconds via power armor. Makes more sense for him to save it for people that really require it.

[Triniking1234]

Batman survived re-entry from the Moon to Earth. Checkmate.

[JT221]

Are our modern pantheon of god-like characters over-powered?

No.

[babyblob]

Why would he need a powerful suit to stop Croc? It's like asking why doesn't a hunter who owns high powered rifles shoot a squirrel that got into his house instead of shooing it out with a broom. If Croc can be stopped under normal means there's no need for a suit capable of fighting Superman. Does Iron Man use Hulk/Phoenix/God buster armors to take on opponents who don't require it? This is entertainment first and foremost nobody wants to read a realistic story where Batman beats all of his rogues in 2 seconds via power armor. Makes more sense for him to save it for people that really require it.

My point was that it is hard to believe that someone like Killer Croc or even Bane gives Batman that much trouble when he can go toe to toe with Superman by putting on a suit. If those guys are so strong they give Batman who has been many times shown to go toe to toe with Superman why does he just not put on that suit and take them both down pretty easy?

Can Killer Croc and Bane be taken down by normal means? Yes but it takes a Hell of a lot of effort and not only puts Batman at risk but the people in Gotham and his partners. If Batman is always written as being efficient and not wanting to waste time and effort and take down his rogues as efficiently as he can it makes sense for him to armor up to take on super powered foes as to not give them a chance to beat him and put lives at risk

Just seems silly he has that badass Super suit but only pulls it out so rarely to take on a guy who is not even a villain yet fights super powered villains with just his fists and a baterrang.

It is hard to believe that he would let himself get put into harms way, get beat up, and put his life at risk against guys who are a lot stronger then him when he can just put on his Superman whooping suit and take them down.

Does he need the suit to take on Two Face, Mad Hatter, or the Joker? No. But if wanted to be efficient and end the threat as soon as possible like writers often claim that is his goal he would do it.

I think it was a huge mistake giving Batman Ironman level tech and then have him not use it half the time.

[Alan2099]

Why would he need a powerful suit to stop Croc? It's like asking why doesn't a hunter who owns high powered rifles shoot a squirrel that got into his house instead of shooing it out with a broom. If Croc can be stopped under normal means there's no need for a suit capable of fighting Superman. Does Iron Man use Hulk/Phoenix/God buster armors to take on opponents who don't require it? This is entertainment first and foremost nobody wants to read a realistic story where Batman beats all of his rogues in 2 seconds via power armor. Makes more sense for him to save it for people that really require it.

If the problem is that Batman can put on his special Anti-God armor and stop all his enemies in two minutes if he wanted, then to me, it seems like the solution needs to be take away the armor and don't let him make a new one.

Don't let him keep JLA proof spandex in his closet. If you really need him to have something like that, make sure it's something that he can only use briefly and never again after this one mission. It's unstable or have a power source that will permanently burn out in 30 minutes, something like that.

[JT221]

If the problem is that Batman can put on his special Anti-God armor and stop all his enemies in two minutes if he wanted, then to me, it seems like the solution needs to be take away the armor and don't let him make a new one.

Don't let him keep JLA proof spandex in his closet. If you really need him to have something like that, make sure it's something that he can only use briefly and never again after this one mission. It's unstable or have a power source that will permanently burn out in 30 minutes, something like that.

One of the challenges of serialized characters. If they go on long enough they are bound to have repeating concepts and storylines.