Good “Meta-Storytelling” vs Bad “Meta-Storytelling”

[godisawesome]

So I just got back from watching Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse (it’s fantastic), and I realized while watching it that I really really liked it’s “meta-storytelling” - that thing where a subtext driving the story is a sort of real world commentary about the fiction and the audience’s engagement with it. But a funny thing for me is that I’ve also seen meta-text as part of Zeb Wells’s much criticized Amazing Spider-Man run, where it’s arguably at the heart of that story’s shallowness, while I’ve also seen meta-storytelling tear apart the Star Wars Sequel Trilogy fanbase thanks to TLJ while making stuff like Stephen King’s Misery gain extra bite in its villainous fangirl.

So I was thinking it might be fun to talk about what makes meta-storytelling work and what can make it go very, very wrong… and I think the trick is that it requires the creator to understand not just the franchise with expertise, but also empathize with how their audience engages with it.

Thoughts?

[blunt_eastwood]

I think Doomsday Clock would be a good example. Ideas like Superman being the center of each continuity shift since he was the first major super hero, and Dr. Manhattan being the cause of the darkness in the DCU since he represented cynicism in Watchmen, use the meta narrative of these ideas logically and integrate into and drive the plot in a satisfying way.

[Tendrin]

Soon as I saw who's thread this was, I *knew* were gonna get a TLJ name-drop ;D

[blunt_eastwood]

Soon as I saw who's thread this was, I *knew* were gonna get a TLJ name-drop ;D

Lol tell me what I'm in for. I just started looking at this person's posts and got interested in their thoughts, found this thread, and gave my contribution.

[Riv86672]

SUPERNATURAL lead heavily into meta fiction in the eventual wrap up to the series.

They also had a plethora of meta episodes, all of which I think were really well done.

Had to look up the seasons/eps but two of my favorites were “Fan Fiction” (Season 10, Episode 5), where Sam and Dean investigate a case of a missing drama teacher at an all girls school, only to find that a Supernatural musical is being done there. Those kids put on a gut wrenching rendition of “Wayward Son”.
While we the audience are used to hearing the song juxtaposed against the lives of the Winchesters, seeing them get hit in the face w. that was sad af.

“Scoobynatural” (Season 13, Episode 16) had the Winchesters turn into cartoons and meet Mystery Inc. That would’ve been good enough but writers went the extra mile, having each group of characters deal w. each other’s tropes in various creative and hilarious ways.

[godisawesome]

I think Doomsday Clock would be a good example. Ideas like Superman being the center of each continuity shift since he was the first major super hero, and Dr. Manhattan being the cause of the darkness in the DCU since he represented cynicism in Watchmen, use the meta narrative of these ideas logically and integrate into and drive the plot in a satisfying way.

There’s a part of me that thinks that Doomsday Clock would have been much better received if it had come out quickly after Rebirth’s start; the initial premise was very, very popular at the time… but then it took too long to get out and eventually the same screwed up editorial that had screwed up before and during the New 52 got around to screwing up Rebirth as well. Really, if they’d tied Manhattan into Zero Hour and other stuff as well, and just make him seem like an exaggeration of dissatisfied marketing-first editors, they could have hit that even harder.

SUPERNATURAL lead heavily into meta fiction in the eventual wrap up to the series.

They also had a plethora of meta episodes, all of which I think were really well done.

Had to look up the seasons/eps but two of my favorites were “Fan Fiction” (Season 10, Episode 5), where Sam and Dean investigate a case of a missing drama teacher at an all girls school, only to find that a Supernatural musical is being done there. Those kids put on a gut wrenching rendition of “Wayward Son”.
While we the audience are used to hearing the song juxtaposed against the lives of the Winchesters, seeing them get hit in the face w. that was sad af.

“Scoobynatural” (Season 13, Episode 16) had the Winchesters turn into cartoons and meet Mystery Inc. That would’ve been good enough but writers went the extra mile, having each group of characters deal w. each other’s tropes in various creative and hilarious ways.

Never seen that Scoobynatural episode… sounds like I should!

On other examples and jokes made in this thread…

…Yeah, I do tend to think that The Last Jedi tells the audience more about what Rian Johnson didn’t get about Star Wars than it does anything valuable about Star Wars itself. It’s meta-text assumes that the franchise and fanbase is sexist… and so sexist, at that, that the film itself can remain a certain type of sexist and still expect feminist accolades… which is a problem when that ends up making the film the most sexist Star Wars film thanks to how it writes the female characters as only plot tools. It assumed the fanbase was racist as well… and also so racist, at that, that the film could still end up demoting John Boyega from the male lead role, and refocus the whole story on sad white guys, and still get diversity points. It also assumes that people liked Luke as a shallow, static power-fantasy character, and that Poe was liked because he was a Maverick-style “Hot Shot Pilot” character, ignoring that Luke was beloved as a maturing, operatic character from humble origins and that Poe was liked because he was a cool, professional type… which played into the film’s general arrogant assumption that mid-life crises and dumb deconstruction of the wrong archetype would automatically elevate the story.

It’s also got a VERY stupid meta-text about how lame it thinks speculation and mystery boxes are - which is not a bad opinion to have as long as you still know that the story is still what people care about, and don’t just have a meta-commentary of “Subversion is all you need!” which is dumber than hell. It’s also has a meta-text of “fun escapism is stupid!” which also means it misses why people like Star Wars in general, and only aggravates the fact that it’s being stupid for the purpose of being mean-spirited.

In contrast, Across the Spider-Verse is VERY smart, and HIGHLY empathetic with its audience:

spoilers:

It has the confidence in Miles as a lead to have the antagonistic Miguel spout a meta-text complaint from Miles haters about Miles not “counting” as a “real Soider-Man,” and have Miles just immediately reject it completely as a premise and have the film *know* the audience will be with it on that. It also has the entire “tragic canon events are immutable and necessary for a superhero” plot-line reflecting the frequent editorial arguments for why they have to kill supporting cast and increase angst, and makes that the thing Miles is fighting to prevent.

end of spoilers

The fact it also has Peter B. reuniting with MJ and having a kid while modern editorial hates any progress for Peter is also a rather sharp criticism of that POV, but it’s the Miles-attached storylines that I think most positively reflect good meta-commentary from something like The Last Jedi; Across the Spider-Verse knows why people love it’s more diverse leads and how to attack the idiots hating them, while TLJ distrusts it’s more diverse leads and seeks to replace them while paying empty lip service to progressive ideals it betrays within the same movie.

[blunt_eastwood]

There’s a part of me that thinks that Doomsday Clock would have been much better received if it had come out quickly after Rebirth’s start; the initial premise was very, very popular at the time… but then it took too long to get out and eventually the same screwed up editorial that had screwed up before and during the New 52 got around to screwing up Rebirth as well. Really, if they’d tied Manhattan into Zero Hour and other stuff as well, and just make him seem like an exaggeration of dissatisfied marketing-first editors, they could have hit that even harder.

You're probably right, but I think what also hurt is is the fact that it got pretty much ignored as the basis for the ongoing continuity in favor of Death Metal. If Death Metal hadn't come out, or wasn't a Crisis story, and Doomsday Clock was properly promoted as the official New 52/Rebirth story, people would probably have liked it more.

What did you mean about tying Dr. Manhattan into Zero Hour? How would that work?