How do you think the Green Goblin will return?

[Lukmendes]

YEEEEEEEEESSSSSSS!!!!!!!

I actually think it'd be a great thematically, too, as dead Norman was a ghost that haunted Peter for years (Harry, Hamilton, various Hobgoblins, etc). It gives Peter a Norman to beat, his memory being an intangible cause of so many wrongs to Peter, but leaves the poignant original death intact.

As it is now, his penance for murdering Gwen was a 5 year holiday in Europe. Big win for the god guys there.

Hey now, Europe killed at least one Goblin, it can be a pretty dangerous place .

That's right. I don't think it was the best run (absolute bullshit that was ever the original plan), and I really disliked the art, but there were a bunch of super fun ideas in there.

It being the original plan is a lie anyways, considering clone saga never really had a set plan once it got out of control, and you can see that just by reading 101 ways to end clone saga, and you don't even need to read the whole thing lol.

Goblin Queen got Gwen'd.

So we talking about a bridge or a symbiote eating her?

- Yeah, sure, she "died", but her creation involved Goblin Formula. That wouldn't stop her from coming back.

Not exactly Goblin Formula, since she's made from Norman's sins, so it's more supernatural in nature, which's why I assume she has random magic powers like a nerfed penance stare.

Jail has really been more of a suggestion in the Marvel Universe for a few decades.

Considering that even at the earliest comics, villains were only arrested for a few months and they were allowed to have their stuff back (Such as Beetle being released and getting his armor back), jail never did much to begin with lol.

[Xenon]

Hey now, Europe killed at least one Goblin, it can be a pretty dangerous place .

And a Gwen too.

So we talking about a bridge or a symbiote eating her?

spoilers:

GQ is hitting Peter with the Sin Stare, Norman throws her flail at her from behind, it wraps around her neck, he tries to pull her off and "snap". Actually a pretty good moment because of how much they used that "snap" sfx through the earlier issues

end of spoilers

Not exactly Goblin Formula, since she's made from Norman's sins, so it's more supernatural in nature, which's why I assume she has random magic powers like a nerfed penance stare.

Maybe the wiki I was reading is wrong but it said there was both used in her creation.

Considering that even at the earliest comics, villains were only arrested for a few months and they were allowed to have their stuff back (Such as Beetle being released and getting his armor back), jail never did much to begin with lol.

It was so wild to me when I read the Vulture's second appearance and he just....walks out of jail after serving his time. Like...oh, yeah I guess so. It'd been like two years.

But that actually made sense given both the time and the crimes he had committed. The 60s were notoriously light on criminals, but more importnatly the villains back in the day never actually killed anyone, they just robbed them. Combined with the early comics passing at essentially real time, and yeah Vulture gets out after a two year stint in the joint based on good behavior and ony getting convicted of burglary.

Now, that stops working when every viliain is a murderer. But that was pretty rare in the early Spider-Man comics. There's a famous Riddler speech about this somewhere....

[exile001]

Hey now, Europe killed at least one Goblin, it can be a pretty dangerous place .

He also got better. Lol.

You mentioning that made me realise that if we use their first post-death on page appearances, SM #75 for Norman and ASM v5 #67 for Ned, Ned Leeds was actually "dead" a lot longer than Norman! 23 years to 34 years!

[Lukmendes]

And a Gwen too.

Wait what Gwen died in Europe? Lol.

spoilers:

GQ is hitting Peter with the Sin Stare, Norman throws her flail at her from behind, it wraps around her neck, he tries to pull her off and "snap". Actually a pretty good moment because of how much they used that "snap" sfx through the earlier issues

end of spoilers

Oh Spidey needing to be saved, how novel...

Maybe the wiki I was reading is wrong but it said there was both used in her creation.

Well if Goblin formula was used then that's likely something established later, 'cause I don't remember Beyond hinting at any point the goblin serum was used on her, but I could be remembering poorly too.

It was so wild to me when I read the Vulture's second appearance and he just....walks out of jail after serving his time. Like...oh, yeah I guess so. It'd been like two years.

But that actually made sense given both the time and the crimes he had committed. The 60s were notoriously light on criminals, but more importnatly the villains back in the day never actually killed anyone, they just robbed them. Combined with the early comics passing at essentially real time, and yeah Vulture gets out after a two year stint in the joint based on good behavior and ony getting convicted of burglary.

Fair enough, although the police handling back the armor to Beetle just sounds odd lol.

Now, that stops working when every viliain is a murderer. But that was pretty rare in the early Spider-Man comics.

Thinking of it, I'm not sure any of the super-villains back in Ditko's run commited murder lol.

Like there were certainly attempts, but the only cases with characters getting killed I can think of were done by characters other than the super-villain (Such as Betty's brother being killed by some guy with a gun, and Crime Master being killed by the police).

There's a famous Riddler speech about this somewhere....

Maybe, I assume this is a reference to Pattison's Batman but I didn't watch that lol.

He also got better. Lol.

You mentioning that made me realise that if we use their first post-death on page appearances, SM #75 for Norman and ASM v5 #67 for Ned, Ned Leeds was actually "dead" a lot longer than Norman! 23 years to 34 years!

Hey man, you just proved how deadly Europe is, you die there and you stay dead for 3 decades .

But yeah, I didn't even think about Ned staying dead for this long, and hell, he stayed dead longer than other characters who were killed off for years, like Jason Todd.

Though the record holder is probably Bucky, died offscreen at some point, was probably established in the 60's, and came back in the 2000s I think lol.

[Celgress]

Bit of a rant here but I hate what they've done with Norman. The whole "purged of his sins" nonsense and wanting to "atone" is a slap in the face to genuine redemption stories. For a redemption story to work a character has to be motivated to change not change because they were put under, essentially, a magic spell. It is another aspect of Modern 616 Spidey I can't stand lol.

I'd love it if something like this happened to Norman 2:09 - 2:36 led by the ghosts of Harry and Little Mayday if that is too gruesome then led by the ghost of Gwen -



Sorry, end of the rant. I had to get that off my chest.

[Huntsman Spider]

And a Gwen too.




spoilers:

GQ is hitting Peter with the Sin Stare, Norman throws her flail at her from behind, it wraps around her neck, he tries to pull her off and "snap". Actually a pretty good moment because of how much they used that "snap" sfx through the earlier issues

end of spoilers



Maybe the wiki I was reading is wrong but it said there was both used in her creation.




It was so wild to me when I read the Vulture's second appearance and he just....walks out of jail after serving his time. Like...oh, yeah I guess so. It'd been like two years.

But that actually made sense given both the time and the crimes he had committed. The 60s were notoriously light on criminals, but more importnatly the villains back in the day never actually killed anyone, they just robbed them. Combined with the early comics passing at essentially real time, and yeah Vulture gets out after a two year stint in the joint based on good behavior and ony getting convicted of burglary.

Now, that stops working when every viliain is a murderer. But that was pretty rare in the early Spider-Man comics. There's a famous Riddler speech about this somewhere....

Oh, you mean the one by Neil Gaiman, where Riddler asks in response to the darker and edgier revamps of Batman and his rogues gallery, especially the Joker, "Was I away when the rules changed, for God's sake?!" Something like that.

Wait what Gwen died in Europe? Lol.



Oh Spidey needing to be saved, how novel...



Well if Goblin formula was used then that's likely something established later, 'cause I don't remember Beyond hinting at any point the goblin serum was used on her, but I could be remembering poorly too.



Fair enough, although the police handling back the armor to Beetle just sounds odd lol.



Thinking of it, I'm not sure any of the super-villains back in Ditko's run commited murder lol.

Like there were certainly attempts, but the only cases with characters getting killed I can think of were done by characters other than the super-villain (Such as Betty's brother being killed by some guy with a gun, and Crime Master being killed by the police).



Maybe, I assume this is a reference to Pattison's Batman but I didn't watch that lol.



Hey man, you just proved how deadly Europe is, you die there and you stay dead for 3 decades .

But yeah, I didn't even think about Ned staying dead for this long, and hell, he stayed dead longer than other characters who were killed off for years, like Jason Todd.

Though the record holder is probably Bucky, died offscreen at some point, was probably established in the 60's, and came back in the 2000s I think lol.

Not from The Batman, but from The Gaiman. Neil Gaiman, to be precise. He actually wrote a pretty decent one-shot about the Riddler coming back from hiatus, only to be horrified at how the other members of Batman's rogues gallery had degenerated into murdering psychopaths when they used to just be relatively harmless troublemakers. "Was I away when the rules changed, for God's sake?!"

[Xenon]

Wait what Gwen died in Europe? Lol.

The original clone gets killed during Spider-Island unceremoniously because Slott loves to tie off loose ends uncermoniously and uninterestingly. AT least i think it ws the original. She walks away in the 90s clone saga and no one ever references her again until she gets sniped by another Gwen clone.

Oh Spidey needing to be saved, how novel...

They're just setting the table to replace him with the Amazing Paul man.

Well if Goblin formula was used then that's likely something established later, 'cause I don't remember Beyond hinting at any point the goblin serum was used on her, but I could be remembering poorly too.

I'm relying entirely on the villains wiki on this one I can't remember that far back either.

Fair enough, although the police handling back the armor to Beetle just sounds odd lol.

Yeah no that part they probably wouldn't do. As items that were used as part of a crime they would likely be subject to forfeiture. Unless someone forgot to file the right paperwork.

Thinking of it, I'm not sure any of the super-villains back in Ditko's run commited murder lol.

Like there were certainly attempts, but the only cases with characters getting killed I can think of were done by characters other than the super-villain (Such as Betty's brother being killed by some guy with a gun, and Crime Master being killed by the police).

Nothing actually comes to mind except what you mentioned and like you said that wasn't the villains.

Maybe, I assume this is a reference to Pattison's Batman but I didn't watch that lol.

Nah Huntsman got it. The Batman was pretty good and I was skeptical about Pattinson. Not my favorite Batman movie but i was just happy to et another one after so long. Nopt sure why they don't just pump those out honestly.

Hey man, you just proved how deadly Europe is, you die there and you stay dead for 3 decades .

But yeah, I didn't even think about Ned staying dead for this long, and hell, he stayed dead longer than other characters who were killed off for years, like Jason Todd.

Though the record holder is probably Bucky, died offscreen at some point, was probably established in the 60's, and came back in the 2000s I think lol.

Bringing back Ned and letting Betty have him was an underrated change in the run. Kinda lame how everyone has to be miserable just to give Peter Pathos. He can get Pathos from them being happy too.

Bit of a rant here but I hate what they've done with Norman. The whole "purged of his sins" nonsense and wanting to "atone" is a slap in the face to genuine redemption stories. For a redemption story to work a character has to be motivated to change not change because they were put under, essentially, a magic spell. It is another aspect of Modern 616 Spidey I can't stand lol.

I'd love it if something like this happened to Norman 2:09 - 2:36 led by the ghosts of Harry and Little Mayday if that is too gruesome then led by the ghost of Gwen -



Sorry, end of the rant. I had to get that off my chest.

I mean gold goblin has his conscience take the form of Gwen to torment him through the whole series.

I dunno, though. i don't believe Norman Osborn can ever change from a choice perspective. He was evil before the Goblin Formula let alone after. Magicking a concience onto him was pretty much the only way to make it believable to me, and honestly because I never believed it was anything more than temporary the only actually interesting aspects of "good Norman" are how Peter deals with it.

Oh, you mean the one by Neil Gaiman, where Riddler asks in response to the darker and edgier revamps of Batman and his rogues gallery, especially the Joker, "Was I away when the rules changed, for God's sake?!" Something like that.

Yes that's definitley the one. I've only ever seen the page but it's a good one.

[Hypestyle]

Norman will fall off the wagon... the glider... again.
It's his nature.

[Lukmendes]

Oh, you mean the one by Neil Gaiman, where Riddler asks in response to the darker and edgier revamps of Batman and his rogues gallery, especially the Joker, "Was I away when the rules changed, for God's sake?!" Something like that.



Not from The Batman, but from The Gaiman. Neil Gaiman, to be precise. He actually wrote a pretty decent one-shot about the Riddler coming back from hiatus, only to be horrified at how the other members of Batman's rogues gallery had degenerated into murdering psychopaths when they used to just be relatively harmless troublemakers. "Was I away when the rules changed, for God's sake?!"

Huh, wasn't aware of this.

That just makes him being an edgelord in Pattison's Batman ironic lol.

The original clone gets killed during Spider-Island unceremoniously because Slott loves to tie off loose ends uncermoniously and uninterestingly. AT least i think it ws the original. She walks away in the 90s clone saga and no one ever references her again until she gets sniped by another Gwen clone.

I don't think she was involved in clone saga, but she was in a story where Conway tries to retcon the clone saga's clones into not being actually clones.

They're just setting the table to replace him with the Amazing Paul man.

I still theorize that Paul is a grown up Spider-Boy, maybe we have a weird time loop going on .

Yeah no that part they probably wouldn't do. As items that were used as part of a crime they would likely be subject to forfeiture. Unless someone forgot to file the right paperwork.

Beetle basically says "My armor isn't a weapon so they can't keep it", so yeah, probably not incompetence with paperwork lol.

Nah Huntsman got it. The Batman was pretty good and I was skeptical about Pattinson. Not my favorite Batman movie but i was just happy to et another one after so long. Nopt sure why they don't just pump those out honestly.

Pattison honestly is a good actor, the problem is that he's mostly known for Twilight, where he was stiff and awkward there, but that is because the script sucked and he detested the movies lol.

There's even a moment where it looks like he was baffled at a dialogue:



14:17

Bringing back Ned and letting Betty have him was an underrated change in the run. Kinda lame how everyone has to be miserable just to give Peter Pathos. He can get Pathos from them being happy too.

I honestly don't really care about this choice much since Ned has been dead for so fucking long lol.

I mean gold goblin has his conscience take the form of Gwen to torment him through the whole series.

Really? Should've been Harry, and that should be the case even before the "He sold Harry's soul to Mephisto" **** lol.

I dunno, though. i don't believe Norman Osborn can ever change from a choice perspective. He was evil before the Goblin Formula let alone after. Magicking a concience onto him was pretty much the only way to make it believable to me, and honestly because I never believed it was anything more than temporary the only actually interesting aspects of "good Norman" are how Peter deals with it.

What I think is particularly silly is that Sin Eater's shotgun forces his own guilt into other people, which Spidey makes it clear, but Norman for whatever reason is an exception.

But yeah, that is about the only way to pretend that Norman can be redeemable, which... If that's the only way to do it, it's worth wondering if it's something to be done at all, 'cause like Otto, he was a complete piece of **** at his best and becoming good in any way is just questionable.

Also, now that I think of it, this is weirdly too late, because years ago we had Axis inverting heroes and villains changing morality, and it's why Sabretooth was good for a while, but, nothing of the like happened with Norman, at least not long term lol.

[Venomsaurus]

But yeah, that is about the only way to pretend that Norman can be redeemable, which... If that's the only way to do it, it's worth wondering if it's something to be done at all, 'cause like Otto, he was a complete piece of **** at his best and becoming good in any way is just questionable.

Also, now that I think of it, this is weirdly too late, because years ago we had Axis inverting heroes and villains changing morality, and it's why Sabretooth was good for a while, but, nothing of the like happened with Norman, at least not long term lol.

This is a really good point I hadn't even considered. Beyond just how weird it is for everyone to be buddying up to Norman when he was trying to kill these folks just a couple years ago, it really doesn't feel earned or wortwhile if you're just gonna magic him to being good.

There's a lot of great villain to hero stories in comics. Magneto being a good example. But there's always a progression to things, a slow arc of them redeeming themselves, or even not redeeming themselves fully but still dealing with the consequences of their villainy in a way that helps them move forward. Norman never got that, nor did Otto, and it makes their heroic turn feel fake at best. We all know this isn't like Magneto or Venom, where becoming a bad guy would reduce decades of developement, it would just be like flipping a switch back from good to bad. Which feels hollow at best.

[Lukmendes]

This is a really good point I hadn't even considered. Beyond just how weird it is for everyone to be buddying up to Norman when he was trying to kill these folks just a couple years ago, it really doesn't feel earned or wortwhile if you're just gonna magic him to being good.

There's a lot of great villain to hero stories in comics. Magneto being a good example.

Even Magneto has its own issues, he was way too cartoonish as a super-villain and has tried to kill the X-Men a number of times.

At the very least, Claremont was smart enough to keep some of his edge, so he became better but was still an ass occasionally, plus, his new background at least gave him an irony (He was persecuted by evil people, then became an evil person who tries to persecute).

But there's always a progression to things, a slow arc of them redeeming themselves, or even not redeeming themselves fully but still dealing with the consequences of their villainy in a way that helps them move forward. Norman never got that, nor did Otto, and it makes their heroic turn feel fake at best. We all know this isn't like Magneto or Venom, where becoming a bad guy would reduce decades of developement, it would just be like flipping a switch back from good to bad. Which feels hollow at best.

Yeah Norman's change is just a magic shotgun flipping a switch from "bad" to "good", and Otto's is, just gross, he fucking kills Spidey, steals his life and starts to pretend to be someone he isn't, tries to **** MJ who definitely wouldn't be okay with this if she knew, and also started a relationship with Anna Maria who also wouldn't be okay if she knew it was Otto in another guy's body, and when Spidey turned out to be kinda alive, he tried to kill Spidey again.

Like, just identity theft alone is a serious crime, what he did is identity theft on steroids.

At the very least what can be "praised" is that Otto kept his edge and was still a piece of ****, because it would be even more unbelievable if he saw Spidey being sad once and decided to be completely good after this, but, him still being an *******, while stealing everything from Spidey, just makes it hard to think of him as even just "bad", he doesn't even regret in any way this situation so how is that supposed to make him look not evil?

**** by default I already find it iffy whenever super evil villains stop being evil (That's what caused the entire DB talk in the Superior thread lol), and that even includes people like Venom, or Magneto, but, in a case like Venom, you could say there was a misguided attempt at doing good (Although early stories make it clear his "protect the innocent" only really applies to himself, since he does kill innocents if they inconvenienced him like a cop finding out he lives at a church), while Magneto was a piece of **** who remained an ass a few times even when switching sides.

[Venomsaurus]

Even Magneto has its own issues, he was way too cartoonish as a super-villain and has tried to kill the X-Men a number of times.

At the very least, Claremont was smart enough to keep some of his edge, so he became better but was still an ass occasionally, plus, his new background at least gave him an irony (He was persecuted by evil people, then became an evil person who tries to persecute).



Yeah Norman's change is just a magic shotgun flipping a switch from "bad" to "good", and Otto's is, just gross, he fucking kills Spidey, steals his life and starts to pretend to be someone he isn't, tries to **** MJ who definitely wouldn't be okay with this if she knew, and also started a relationship with Anna Maria who also wouldn't be okay if she knew it was Otto in another guy's body, and when Spidey turned out to be kinda alive, he tried to kill Spidey again.

Like, just identity theft alone is a serious crime, what he did is identity theft on steroids.

At the very least what can be "praised" is that Otto kept his edge and was still a piece of ****, because it would be even more unbelievable if he saw Spidey being sad once and decided to be completely good after this, but, him still being an *******, while stealing everything from Spidey, just makes it hard to think of him as even just "bad", he doesn't even regret in any way this situation so how is that supposed to make him look not evil?

**** by default I already find it iffy whenever super evil villains stop being evil (That's what caused the entire DB talk in the Superior thread lol), and that even includes people like Venom, or Magneto, but, in a case like Venom, you could say there was a misguided attempt at doing good (Although early stories make it clear his "protect the innocent" only really applies to himself, since he does kill innocents if they inconvenienced him like a cop finding out he lives at a church), while Magneto was a piece of **** who remained an ass a few times even when switching sides.

Keeping an edge to them definitely feels like an important part. Magneto has never been 100% a hero even when doing good. He's always had that darker half to cotend with. Norman feels very squeaky clean as a hero which is so weird to see play out. Even if he has guilt from his time as a villain, it's not really the same.

There was no making Otto as a hero a good idea or working out. Especially when you take into account all the sexual assault-y vibes to Superior Spider-man. That's one of those ideas a good editor would have shot down dead before it ever developed into anything more.

I will say while Venom was definitely a bit of a hypcorite, the writers did a decent job giving him a stronger moral center than most villains around that time. He was crazy but most of that crazy was just focused on Spider-man and he did try to help those he saw as innocent.

[Tendrin]

Just like to point out, on Otto, you can really bring it down to the moral of Mother Night.

We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be

Otto is a bad guy, who never stopped being a bad guy. He was never redeemed. Just playing Spider-Man, however, *started* that process and he did not have a single moment throughout the entire series that was genuinely heroic until the end, and that wasn't the end of a redemption arc, but rather, would be the beginning of one, had he survived it.

Everything else was fruit of the poison tree and the comic, and Slott, always knew that, no matter how earnest Otto's intentions were at times.

[Xenon]

Norman will fall off the wagon... the glider... again.
It's his nature.

Oh for sure. I was never under any illusion the shotgun of morality was going to be lasting.

I don't think she was involved in clone saga, but she was in a story where Conway tries to retcon the clone saga's clones into not being actually clones.

Oh right the High Evolutionary says she was actually Joyce Delany morphed into Gwen Stacy. Naw I had forgotten that but now I'm sure she's in teh 90s saga, because they undo that Conway story and bring that specific Gwen clone back to dangle from teh top of a buildling. IT's actually the Jackal's last appearance in the clone saga, as after this Peter goes away, Ben takes over, and then we dont' get anything until Revelations. And at the end of the issue she just literally walks away from the scene and is never seen again until Slott kills her.

Beetle basically says "My armor isn't a weapon so they can't keep it", so yeah, probably not incompetence with paperwork lol.

Yeah tha'ts not how the law works.

Pattison honestly is a good actor, the problem is that he's mostly known for Twilight, where he was stiff and awkward there, but that is because the script sucked and he detested the movies lol.

There's even a moment where it looks like he was baffled at a dialogue:



14:17

LOL that's a good face, haha. I was skeptical but he was good in it. I will enjoy a sequel.

I honestly don't really care about this choice much since Ned has been dead for so fucking long lol.

I didn't need it but eh, I'll take it.

Really? Should've been Harry, and that should be the case even before the "He sold Harry's soul to Mephisto" **** lol.

This is probably true, but I think they went with Gwen both for the "snap" allusions and so when he breaks and kills her he can look horrified at doing it again (being a figment of his imagination she's obviously fine but he does choke "her" to death at one point).



[Q?UOTE]What I think is particularly silly is that Sin Eater's shotgun forces his own guilt into other people, which Spidey makes it clear, but Norman for whatever reason is an exception.

But yeah, that is about the only way to pretend that Norman can be redeemable, which... If that's the only way to do it, it's worth wondering if it's something to be done at all, 'cause like Otto, he was a complete piece of **** at his best and becoming good in any way is just questionable.

Also, now that I think of it, this is weirdly too late, because years ago we had Axis inverting heroes and villains changing morality, and it's why Sabretooth was good for a while, but, nothing of the like happened with Norman, at least not long term lol.[/QUOTE]

I'm not going to pretend this is Shakespeare, like as a concept there's a lot of questions. Lke I said my only interest in it is seeing how Peter would react to that scenario. in that sense, perhaps it's not too early to revert him, as we've basically seen Peter make peace with it.

This is a really good point I hadn't even considered. Beyond just how weird it is for everyone to be buddying up to Norman when he was trying to kill these folks just a couple years ago, it really doesn't feel earned or wortwhile if you're just gonna magic him to being good.

There's a lot of great villain to hero stories in comics. Magneto being a good example. But there's always a progression to things, a slow arc of them redeeming themselves, or even not redeeming themselves fully but still dealing with the consequences of their villainy in a way that helps them move forward. Norman never got that, nor did Otto, and it makes their heroic turn feel fake at best. We all know this isn't like Magneto or Venom, where becoming a bad guy would reduce decades of developement, it would just be like flipping a switch back from good to bad. Which feels hollow at best.

Right I don't think it's really supposed to feel earned or worthwhile though. I think the whole point is for it to be surreal and to see how Spidey deals with it. If they were trying to pretend Norman was now this good guy forever more we'd have a serious problem, but I don't think anyone was under that illusion.

Just like to point out, on Otto, you can really bring it down to the moral of Mother Night.



Otto is a bad guy, who never stopped being a bad guy. He was never redeemed. Just playing Spider-Man, however, *started* that process and he did not have a single moment throughout the entire series that was genuinely heroic until the end, and that wasn't the end of a redemption arc, but rather, would be the beginning of one, had he survived it.

Everything else was fruit of the poison tree and the comic, and Slott, always knew that, no matter how earnest Otto's intentions were at times.

I mean this was one of my problems with Superior, that makes his actions in Superior make no sense. Like in 2, he breaks up with Mary Jane specifically because he reasons having someone more important causes him to prioritize that one person and be less efficient in saving lives. Why be heroic at all if he's still a villain deep down. And what about Peter's last ditch brainwash in 700? Did that just not work despite what he says? He just bounces in between noble hoerics and outright villain with no driving motivation.

[Lukmendes]

Keeping an edge to them definitely feels like an important part. Magneto has never been 100% a hero even when doing good. He's always had that darker half to cotend with. Norman feels very squeaky clean as a hero which is so weird to see play out. Even if he has guilt from his time as a villain, it's not really the same.

Yeah like, feeling guilt is an important part of redemption, but if a character changes personality too fast, too easily, then it feels too, convenient and poorly done.

There was no making Otto as a hero a good idea or working out. Especially when you take into account all the sexual assault-y vibes to Superior Spider-man.

And then the sexual assault **** continued between Spidey and Cindy after Superior lol.

Like, people like to say Cindy threatened to rape Spidey, but she didn't, she still was way too into the whole thing while Spidey wasn't comfortable with it, it was disgusting:



https://i.imgur.com/yQG4w2E.jpg

(ASM#9 vol 3).

"And while it's a nice problem to have..."

**** lol.

Slott was in a weird mood when writing those comics, like he was bringing his inner 12 year old fanfiction writer.

That's one of those ideas a good editor would have shot down dead before it ever developed into anything more.

Honestly the basic idea of Superior is fine, even if it's too much of a Kraven's Last Hunt ripoff, the one idea I find to be bad no matter what is Cindy's existence, it's fucking cringe.

I will say while Venom was definitely a bit of a hypcorite, the writers did a decent job giving him a stronger moral center than most villains around that time. He was crazy but most of that crazy was just focused on Spider-man and he did try to help those he saw as innocent.

Well, he was definitely meant to be insane since he did kill innocents at least once, and didn't really regret it:





(ASM#300).

Sure he says it's not pleasant and all, but he could always knock the cop unconscious or whatever, but his immediate instinct was to kill, and he immediately justifies having to kill him lol.

So yeah I still think there are issues with him changing sides, but again, I generally find it to not be really believable when such villains change sides to begin with, though, in his case, I can kinda see it happening, with the likes of Norman and Otto though, yeah...

Just like to point out, on Otto, you can really bring it down to the moral of Mother Night.



Otto is a bad guy, who never stopped being a bad guy. He was never redeemed. Just playing Spider-Man, however, *started* that process and he did not have a single moment throughout the entire series that was genuinely heroic until the end, and that wasn't the end of a redemption arc, but rather, would be the beginning of one, had he survived it.

Everything else was fruit of the poison tree and the comic, and Slott, always knew that, no matter how earnest Otto's intentions were at times.

Kinda sucks his one heroic moment is just "Eh this is too much, **** it, I quit" lol.

Oh right the High Evolutionary says she was actually Joyce Delany morphed into Gwen Stacy. Naw I had forgotten that but now I'm sure she's in teh 90s saga, because they undo that Conway story and bring that specific Gwen clone back to dangle from teh top of a buildling. IT's actually the Jackal's last appearance in the clone saga, as after this Peter goes away, Ben takes over, and then we dont' get anything until Revelations. And at the end of the issue she just literally walks away from the scene and is never seen again until Slott kills her.

Hm... Yeah seems that you're right, I'm checking her appearances on the wiki and she's around for Maximum Clonage.

I didn't need it but eh, I'll take it.

As long as it doesn't end with Ned eating the kid lol.

This is probably true, but I think they went with Gwen both for the "snap" allusions and so when he breaks and kills her he can look horrified at doing it again (being a figment of his imagination she's obviously fine but he does choke "her" to death at one point).

Sounds like they're doing it just to have more panels of Norman killing Gwen :P.

I'm not going to pretend this is Shakespeare, like as a concept there's a lot of questions. Lke I said my only interest in it is seeing how Peter would react to that scenario. in that sense, perhaps it's not too early to revert him, as we've basically seen Peter make peace with it.

The thing is that, the way you describe it, this can only maybe benefit Spidey's character, but it doesn't benefit Norman's lol.

Like I don't really care that much about Norman, I always found him to be overrated when he never really did a lot of cool **** besides killing Gwen, but it's stupid whenever he gets screwed over for the sake of another character, that makes him be less imposing, and Spencer's run implying he was indirectly doing Mephisto's will by becoming Green Goblin was another case of this...

I mean this was one of my problems with Superior, that makes his actions in Superior make no sense. Like in 2, he breaks up with Mary Jane specifically because he reasons having someone more important causes him to prioritize that one person and be less efficient in saving lives. Why be heroic at all if he's still a villain deep down. And what about Peter's last ditch brainwash in 700? Did that just not work despite what he says? He just bounces in between noble hoerics and outright villain with no driving motivation.

**** like this is why I say even Otto gets screwed over by Slott's plot over character writing style lol.

After he went back to a cloned body that was like his original, he was sad that Anna Maria was rejecting him and wondered if she'd be okay with him being in a body like Spidey's, it's, ridiculous, pathetic even, that someone as arrogant as Otto would even consider doing that:

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...8821/image.png

(Clone Conspiracy#4).