The Ultimate Comics Line returns!

[scarletspidey]

It was different, but I think we have differing definitions of the qualifier “radically” in this case. Perhaps I should’ve used the words “still recognizable” instead.

For example, Peter Parker was still a white, male high school aged nerd from Queens. Wolverine was still Logan, a.k.a. Weapon X, who was a white dude with pointy hair and sideburns and razor sharp adamantium claws plus a mutant healing factor. And so on and so forth. They were familiar in appearance and just had an updated/streamlined history and world to operate in, but any long time comic fan could pick it up and recognize them as Spider-man and Wolverine. Same with the Hulk (though he was gray to be fair; but still a white scientist named Bruce Banner who transforms into him). Same with Iron Man, Cap, Thor… and so on and so forth. That’s what I mean. These characters were not radically different in my mind and were still quite recognizable.

If they radically change them from their traditional 616 templates, that’s when I fear fans will just tune this out as pure Elseworlds type stuff. As opposed to the original UU, which was a more recognizably modernized Marvel U.

Your qualifier seems to be appearance/race actual characters, personalities, motivations etc. are radically different…

[Jackraow21]

Yes. “Recognizability”. Thought that was pretty clear. If the characters are still recognizable as their templates, in other words “familiar” (to use another word) then I think it could be like the original Ultimate line. Where it just feels like a modernized version of the Marvel U for new readers. And, with solid creative teams on the books, the new line might last.

Make it drastically different — meaning alter well-known iconic characters so that they are less familiar and recognizable — and I believe most folks will skip over it, seeing it as just another Elsworlds or alt u type thing.

Could be wrong, but that’s my belief anyway.

[Biclopcicle]

Issue 4 plot details:

spoilers:

The timeline does NOT get erased, seems like this is the world Hickman wants to stick with. Whole thing ends with Maker and Kang (who is clearly 6160 Tony) trapped in the City along with Howard. 6160 Reed is a heroic Doctor Doom that wears a blue variant of Doom’s suit, he helps trap Kang and Maker in the city. After wards he goes to Anthony and the two of them decide to start fighting back, with Tony putting on his own armor and becoming Iron Lad. Seems Reed has the Immortus Engine and both he and Tony plan to use it. Book ends with the two of them finding Captain America in the ice. The Illuminati meanwhile have decided that in the Maker’s absence they’re going to carve up America amongst themselves. Looks like the plot of Ultimates will be Black Panther gather the team together to liberate America and fight the Ultimate Illuminati. Zero teases for Spider-Man or X-Men. As of right now we still don’t know who Spidey will be, but if it’s Peter I assume he’s going to be college age, which means he and Tony will be around the same age which is weird to think about. Hickman’s new Ultimate Universe is not at all a traditional “world outside your window” or even something that could be like 616. Hickman does have an interesting approach to how to tell a story about our modern world where techbros wield power equivalent to our elected leaders in the Illuminati being technocrats who outright run everything. It does take advantage of being an alternate universe in interesting ways, but I wonder if the Marvel fanbase will reject it because it’s too different from what they’re used to. It’s got that reason I’m even more assured that Peter will be Spidey here, I think they’re going to need a “traditional” book to try and anchor everything else. 6160 can never have a Fantastic Four now and I guess Reed will be on the Ultimates instead because Hickman really wants his guy in the center. I’m fascinated to see what X-Men are going to look like, kinda surprised Hickman didn’t put Xavier on the Ultimate Illuminati. Only loose plot thread is the card Maker gave 616 Miles. It’s not addressed or resolved, 616 doesn’t show up at all after the first issue. Maybe we will see a crossover down the line? Could get something interesting out of 616 Reed and 6160 Reed meeting.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

We don't know how far back in time they went in the epilogue. I would think they went far back enough to completely undo everything the Maker altered, and we see their first act in undoing that. Having said that, Maker and DoomReed will probably cross paths once again. I think this is the core dynamic Hickman wishes to preserve for 6160 evolving out of the Ultimate Invasion. Tony will take a place similar to MCU Tony, the architect of the Avengers (except no Fury, just DoomReed)....but he is crazy OP'd now with Kang-level abilities

end of spoilers

[scarletspidey]

Yes. “Recognizability”. Thought that was pretty clear. If the characters are still recognizable as their templates, in other words “familiar” (to use another word) then I think it could be like the original Ultimate line. Where it just feels like a modernized version of the Marvel U for new readers. And, with solid creative teams on the books, the new line might last.

Make it drastically different — meaning alter well-known iconic characters so that they are less familiar and recognizable — and I believe most folks will skip over it, seeing it as just another Elsworlds or alt u type thing.

Could be wrong, but that’s my belief anyway.

Had had a drink when replying to you and misread part of your message. I agree

[Jackraow21]

Yeah, will be interesting to see if this just a weird Hickman Elseworlds take or it’s true to the spirit of the original Ultimate line, where it’s a familiar and recognizable yet streamlined and updated take on the Marvel U. It does seem like it’s going to have Tony at its core, very much like the MCU. Though he seems quite different at inception in this universe. And obviously younger.

[Mantis-Ray]

Its really gonna depend on what series we are getting, whose writing them, and how they are going to be handled, like Hickman's Spider-Man

[Vordan]

spoilers:

We don't know how far back in time they went in the epilogue. I would think they went far back enough to completely undo everything the Maker altered, and we see their first act in undoing that. Having said that, Maker and DoomReed will probably cross paths once again. I think this is the core dynamic Hickman wishes to preserve for 6160 evolving out of the Ultimate Invasion. Tony will take a place similar to MCU Tony, the architect of the Avengers (except no Fury, just DoomReed)....but he is crazy OP'd now with Kang-level abilities

end of spoilers

Time travel in 6160 doesn’t appear to allow for that. In issue 2 remember when Maker killed the ancestors of the soldiers who attacked him? That immediately erased their descendants. If Tony and DoomReed reset history, they’d erase themselves. Only Maker could make changes because he wasn’t from 6160 and thus wasn’t affected by timeline alterations. Instead what I think happened is they went back and rescued Cap before Maker could find and kill him, which is why initially it looks like he never existed. In other words they can only work within the lines of what Maker has built. Other reason why I don’t think that’s the case is simply because Hickman clearly is setting up a bunch of plot threads to continue like the Illuminati carving up America.

For better or worse, the status quo of 6160 at the end of this mini is what the 6160 universe will be like going forward.

In 1610 Reed goes evil and becomes the Maker. In 6160 it looks like it will be Tony who breaks bad and ultimately becomes the villain Kang. Honestly I was disappointed with how Hickman keeps botching Maker meeting other Reeds. It should be fascinating to see “good” Reeds meet a version of themselves that are so twisted but Hickman never really dwells on it. We don’t get to see Reed and Maker actually meet for the first time in Secret Wars, we don’t get any real explanation for why Maker chose to spare 6160 Reed (or why he killed Sue, Ben, and Johnny but spared Tony/Thor/Peter/etc other than “he’s evil”) and tortured him like he did. It’s a bummer because Hickman is a great Reed writer but he’s just not delivered on the potential there.

There’s three big plot threads Hickman seeds here for the future:

1. The Illuminati carving up America. I presume that will be the first plot dealt with, likely being the impetus for the Ultimates to form. They’ll fight to free America and the world from the Illuminati.
2. Maker, Kang, and Howard are all trapped in the City but one day it will open. They’ll have been in there for two thousand years from their perspective but only two years from ours. That lets Hickman do whatever he wants with them from a characterization standpoint.
3. Tony is set up to become the future Kang. He’s Iron Lad, he’s a time traveller with the Immortus Engine, and he has a personal reason to hate Maker. Question is if he can avoid that destiny.

[MarvelMaster616]

Well, Ultimate Invasion is officially over. And while I enjoyed the story, the ending left me somewhat confused. Howard essentially defeated the Maker and Kang. He's set it up so that this universe can rebuild and recover from what the Maker did. But it's not entirely clear what that entails. It's not like the end of Secret Wars in that there was this big, universe-shattering moment that radically changed the timeline. Is this new universe, Earth-6160, really going to be the new Ultimate Universe? Is every new Ultimate title going to simply stem from here?

If that's the case, then it doesn't feel like a full reboot. Because the Maker essentially hijacked another universe and managed to make himself too big a target. That's less a reboot and more an unintended side-effect of the Maker's agenda. It still creates a link between this universe and the former Ultimate Universe. And I strongly believe that if this new Ultimate Universe is to succeed, it needs to make a clean, unambiguous break from its predecessor. Maybe the upcoming Ultimate Universe #1 will help explain how that unfolds. But as it stands, Ultimate Invasion is a cool story about the Maker finally being defeated. But if you didn't know a new Ultimate Universe was coming, you'd never suspect this was supposed to be part of that story.

I did a full review of the issue on my YouTube channel if anyone is interested.

[Morgoth]

So far it seems that the goal of this version of the Ultimate line-up is completely different from the original. Back then Marvel wanted to create a modern take on the universe that would serve as a starting point for new readers.
Here it looks like Hickman just wants to tell a big, sweeping story that is absolutely impossible to tell within the framework of Earth-616, and this story will have its own end, and not eternal continuity. His own Marvel Universe, with his own rules, his own take on characters, etc. One big Elseworlds story.

[Alex_Of_X]

Good stuff from Hickman!

spoilers:

Roping the Iron Lad stuff from Young Avengers is a very, very fun choice. Basically we have Punished Tony's avengers recruits (you can see him asking Thor to join in the title preview for Ultimate Universe) vs the Super-powered world government. I could see a schism in ideology between Tony and Doom causing trouble down the line, too. The question arises--is Hickman a One Piece fan? He'd dig it i bet

end of spoilers

[Biclopcicle]

Time travel in 6160 doesn’t appear to allow for that. In issue 2 remember when Maker killed the ancestors of the soldiers who attacked him? That immediately erased their descendants. If Tony and DoomReed reset history, they’d erase themselves. Only Maker could make changes because he wasn’t from 6160 and thus wasn’t affected by timeline alterations. Instead what I think happened is they went back and rescued Cap before Maker could find and kill him, which is why initially it looks like he never existed. In other words they can only work within the lines of what Maker has built. Other reason why I don’t think that’s the case is simply because Hickman clearly is setting up a bunch of plot threads to continue like the Illuminati carving up America.

For better or worse, the status quo of 6160 at the end of this mini is what the 6160 universe will be like going forward.

In 1610 Reed goes evil and becomes the Maker. In 6160 it looks like it will be Tony who breaks bad and ultimately becomes the villain Kang. Honestly I was disappointed with how Hickman keeps botching Maker meeting other Reeds. It should be fascinating to see “good” Reeds meet a version of themselves that are so twisted but Hickman never really dwells on it. We don’t get to see Reed and Maker actually meet for the first time in Secret Wars, we don’t get any real explanation for why Maker chose to spare 6160 Reed (or why he killed Sue, Ben, and Johnny but spared Tony/Thor/Peter/etc other than “he’s evil”) and tortured him like he did. It’s a bummer because Hickman is a great Reed writer but he’s just not delivered on the potential there.

There’s three big plot threads Hickman seeds here for the future:

1. The Illuminati carving up America. I presume that will be the first plot dealt with, likely being the impetus for the Ultimates to form. They’ll fight to free America and the world from the Illuminati.
2. Maker, Kang, and Howard are all trapped in the City but one day it will open. They’ll have been in there for two thousand years from their perspective but only two years from ours. That lets Hickman do whatever he wants with them from a characterization standpoint.
3. Tony is set up to become the future Kang. He’s Iron Lad, he’s a time traveller with the Immortus Engine, and he has a personal reason to hate Maker. Question is if he can avoid that destiny.

What I mean by "undo everything he altered" was that they will undo the destruction of the heroes that Maker performed. They already rescued Captain America, and there will be a Spider-Man. I presume it will be spider-bitten parker. Thor comes back as well. Like I said there will still be a Maker and DoomReed will still be masked. Obviously they're not going to reset everything because that is clearly the conflict : "saving the future," "fight and win" with Maker as a prime antagonist (along with Kang)

[Spider-Ham]

Didn’t the Maker kill the Spider at the end of Ultimate Invasion #1 ? If so, I don’t see Peter bitten by it.

[sbp1972]

Didn’t the Maker kill the Spider at the end of Ultimate Invasion #1 ? If so, I don’t see Peter bitten by it.

Haven't looked at it in a while, but I believe he captured it.

[Wally West]

So far it seems that the goal of this version of the Ultimate line-up is completely different from the original. Back then Marvel wanted to create a modern take on the universe that would serve as a starting point for new readers.
Here it looks like Hickman just wants to tell a big, sweeping story that is absolutely impossible to tell within the framework of Earth-616, and this story will have its own end, and not eternal continuity. His own Marvel Universe, with his own rules, his own take on characters, etc. One big Elseworlds story.

Then he should do that in a book not called ultimate.

I highly doubt this is what marvel and Donny cates originally intended. Hell even the first maker was telling miles he was going home. Home is 1610 buddy not 6160

[Wally West]

This new ultimate universe already feels like the post-Ultimatum Jeph Loeb written Ultimate Universe. Which was the point where I bailed