The Ultimate Comics Line returns!

[lefthanded]

Actually, he had two, with Namor. By character development, do you mean page count? Cause I can't say I saw much character development for any of the Illuminati, as far as change. I mean, the whole point was watching what they all did under an impossible choice - which most of them have undergone before. And have to disagree with you on which character was the most interesting to read, though of course, that's personal tastes.

Of course, the Illuminati didn't really change over the course of the story, since the whole arc was about their slide from kings into failure.
But, my take is that BP had the most up and down changes, while the rest of the Illuminati static.

BP and Namor both show some development, due to the nature of their story and conflict. BP starts off moralistic, then pragmatic when he opposes Cap, then shows resolve in blowing up a planet, then loses everything, then shows an inability to compromise his morals to blow up a planet, then becomes vengeful, and then finally still works together with Namor after truly losing everything. Namor has a similar amount of change to arrive at the same point with working with BP.

As for some of the other Illuminati: Cap is stubbornly moralistic while Tony is stubbornly pragmatic at the beginning, and both remains that way to the end. There is no moment of personal reflection for either character, they continue being the same way. Even Tony, when he is imprisoned, continues to rant that he would not change anything. Beast and Prof X had little screentime for any type of development. Black Bolt was there just to represent an already fallen king. Reed doesn't change for most of the story (he remains pragmatically optimistic) until the end fight with Doom where he describes a changed outlook. So essentially, they all slide into failure while staying the same.

I do agree that it is personal taste on what is most interesting.

[D.Z]

Ultimate Cap
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[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I'm curious about the Ultimate Universe returning but it's a wait and see. It's hard to get too excited about the upcoming line without knowing what's in it.

[D.Z]

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Updated cover for 2.

[JustLuke]

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Updated cover for 2.

Oh so the silver guy was Vision, yeah that checks out.

As it turns out coloring his face red was all you needed to do to make it more obvious (probably just to me specifically), who would've thunk it lmao

[D.Z]

I knew it was the Vision. Seems to be ignoring what they did the female one. But it's a new universe anyways.

Thor's costume doesn't match the Thor they're promoting on nearly everything. Unless it's flashback. Or cover made long ago before the update.

[Factor]

Seems like they’re making the Ultimates even more conventional. They’ll probably be Ultimate Avengers for synergy.
Ultimate Wasp no longer looks Asian and Vision is male. And they didn’t bother including more women or POC on the initial team, as expected.

[evolutionaryFan]

I think that's something a lot of people won't really understand until we get a better look into this world. From everything being said from Hickman to Hitch, this is a totally separate world from the old Ultimate Universe, it's not a continuation or a soft reboot of it. So prior developments, characterizations and even history should be expected to be thrown out the window. This is basically the old Ultimate Universe in name and maybe design aesthetics. I think Hitch said in his interview this UU is to the old UU what the OG UU was to 616.

This is good. I don't see the point of doing a parallel Universe line if it's going to involve all the same problems of convoluted old continuity. The whole point to me is to start fresh. That's what Ultimate should be... let it run for 10-15 years... then end it when it inevitable gets bogged down in its own continuity... then start fresh again with a new universe.

[Ultimate Captain America]

I knew it was the Vision. Seems to be ignoring what they did the female one. But it's a new universe anyways.

Thor's costume doesn't match the Thor they're promoting on nearly everything. Unless it's flashback. Or cover made long ago before the update.

Actually, they included an unrelated second Vision later, more similar to the original one.

Seems like they’re making the Ultimates even more conventional. They’ll probably be Ultimate Avengers for synergy.
Ultimate Wasp no longer looks Asian and Vision is male. And they didn’t bother including more women or POC on the initial team, as expected.

Is that a problem? The gender or skin color of a character has no relation to a story being good or bad. And so far the only thing we saw of the new universe is the Maker sabotaging the origin story of Spider-Man, so it's too soon to say.

[skyvolt2000]

Is that a problem? The gender or skin color of a character has no relation to a story being good or bad. And so far the only thing we saw of the new universe is the Maker sabotaging the origin story of Spider-Man, so it's too soon to say.

It seems to be.

When folks have tried to include POC (mainly black) there seems to be this pushback to them.

Including blaming said POC for the reason the book was bad or didn't sell. Bendis's Legion, Al Ewing's Mighty Avengers & McDuffie's JLA run say hi.

Including some blaming said POC is the reason the entire company is in a bad state-including books they are NOT in or haven't been in for more than 5 years.

New universe and we are still seeing the SAME folks on the cover because a loud minority can't stop taking issues with who is on the cover.


If the gender or race REALLY don't matter-why are they not included? And I am sure most writers will tell you it wasn't them excluding folks but the editors.

[Ultimate Captain America]

Well, I speak for myself. I have no problem with a story having black people in it... and neither with a story that lacks them. I simply don't care about it, one way or the other, unless that's an in-story thing (such as when Falcon and Triatlon joined the Avengers). For that reason, I find it a shallow reason when people like or dislike a work just because of race quotas and not because of the merits and flaws of the work itself.

[Force de Phenix]

[...] If Marvel does what you propose and "the usual suspects will throw fits", it wouldn't be because of having a black Hulk, Fantastic Four, Captain Marvel, and Silver Surfer: it would be because of false advertising. [...]

By the way, Marvel has already introduced some months ago an alternate universe whose basic premise is "the Marvel Universe as usual, except that everybody is afro-american". It was in Bishop: War College. Instead of derailing this thread with those proposals with no basis on the actual things seen, announced, or used in the older Ultimate universe, why not focus your energy on trying to make Marvel keep that universe relevant and expand its lore?

Actually, what skyvolt2000 says is that he wants the Ultimate universe to be basically all-afroamerican (don't say "black", that's offensive). Moving all the wasp heroes to a secondary and eventually expendable universe, so that the others get all the spotlight? That's your idea, and it's something else. By the way... not gonna happen.

Well, I speak for myself. I have no problem with a story having black people in it... and neither with a story that lacks them. I simply don't care about it, one way or the other, unless that's an in-story thing (such as when Falcon and Triatlon joined the Avengers). For that reason, I find it a shallow reason when people like or dislike a work just because of race quotas and not because of the merits and flaws of the work itself.

He obviously does because he doesn't shut up about it and makes it an issue every chance he gets.

[Ultimate Captain America]

I don't have an issue on my own opinion about the comics. I have an issue when people complain about an otherwise good comic saying that "All the Illuminati are white!" or "Everybody on the covers of the new Ultimate universe is white!", because I consider such arguments to be shallow, especially at this point that the story is barely starting. And more than shallow: unfair. As seen so far, Hickman is not narrating a story about discrimination or racial conflicts, so rejecting it on such grounds is pure nonsense. If I have to say this so often, it's because those shallow and unfair arguments are voiced so often.

I mean, the cover of Ultimate Invasion has Thor, Hulk, Pym, Wasp, Iron Man, Captain America... why them, and not some black Avenger such as Black Panther or Falcon? Because they are all founding members of the Ultimates, and this whole story arc is an homage to it. And why did Millar start the team with those specific characters back then? Because they are all white? No: because, alongside Hawkeye, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, and Black Widow, it was a subtle reference to the first lineups of the Avengers.

[jwatson]

Well, I speak for myself. I have no problem with a story having black people in it... and neither with a story that lacks them. I simply don't care about it, one way or the other, unless that's an in-story thing (such as when Falcon and Triatlon joined the Avengers). For that reason, I find it a shallow reason when people like or dislike a work just because of race quotas and not because of the merits and flaws of the work itself.

The lack of representation or seeing the real world outside your window is an innate flaw in the work itself. If fleshing out the history of the characters and who they are doesn't matter your just writing plots with faces that look familiar to you.

If they keep replaying the same episode of your favorite show, whether you love it or not at some point your going to get tired of seeing the same thing. Why is that any different than seeing the same stories with the same looking people. But then i think people try to minimize it by saying it's about looks when really it's about the experience someone who went through life not looking like you adds to a story or how that may change a story based on the information we take in from real life events and prejudices and experiences around us. So to say it doesn't matter to a story is, i don't even know how to describe it. It feels like if someone says everything everyone experiences hits the same and therefore life is just a series of plots and principle reactions but no actual substance.

[Ultimate Captain America]

The lack of representation or seeing the real world outside your window is an innate flaw in the work itself. If fleshing out the history of the characters and who they are doesn't matter your just writing plots with faces that look familiar to you.

If they keep replaying the same episode of your favorite show, whether you love it or not at some point your going to get tired of seeing the same thing. Why is that any different than seeing the same stories with the same looking people. But then i think people try to minimize it by saying it's about looks when really it's about the experience someone who went through life not looking like you adds to a story or how that may change a story based on the information we take in from real life events and prejudices and experiences around us. So to say it doesn't matter to a story is, i don't even know how to describe it. It feels like if someone says everything everyone experiences hits the same and therefore life is just a series of plots and principle reactions but no actual substance.

Well, those are problems of the superhero genre itself, as it works for Marvel and DC, rather than with any specific characters or stories. Yes, sometimes a main character is replaced by another from another demographic group for this. Let's say that Peter Parker gets replaced by Miles Morales (but just as an example, as the same would apply for Steve, Stark, Logan, or whatever). You know that would never last for long, and sooner or later Parker would be back and Miles returned to the background. Because he's black? No: because he's not Peter Parker. In some way or another, Spider-Man will always be around while Marvel is Marvel, and he will always be Peter Parker except for short breaks. Same for the other big names, and yes, they are all white because they were created many decades ago and there was another social context. Marvel may try to create new standalone characters like Ms. Marvel to make things more "diverse", but the fandom will always go back to the main characters. Ms. Marvel struggles to have an ongoing comic and Spider-Man can have one for granted, even if it's an awful run like that of Zeb Wells. Because she's Muslim? No: because Spider-Man is Spider-man, and Ms. Marvel is not.

Those are simply the rules of the game. You may dislike them, I also do, but you know it's the way things work. But if you get tired of watching Peter Parker's face year after year... remember that Marvel is not the only franchise around. For example, consider Star Trek: except for some individual cases like Worf and O'Brien, each new series has a completely new cast, unrelated to that of the series before it. You don't have to keep watching Kirk's face year after year: you know that Kirk may be somewhere in the background and/or history, but you watch the face of Picard, and then Sisko, Janeway, Archer, Pike, Mariner, etc. You don't have to drop Marvel, but you don't have to follow only Marvel.