When does your Spider-man canon end?

[Spider-Tiger]

Obviously the 616 comics have been designed to continue forever. However, ATSV’s approach to serialized canon events had me wondering where the definitive classic Spider-man era might have “ended” for different readers of the book. Recently, I’ve seen some fans claim the finale of Nick Spencer’s run to be that end. Over the years, many fans have argued that OMD was their end. In the past, I’ve seen people claim Peter and Mary Jane’s wedding and/or the Death of Gwen Stacy to be an end. Etc.

Personally, I would have to say the “end” of the classic Spider-man saga was with the Clone Saga. The Clone Saga marked the initial attempts at retcon to try and revert the comic to an earlier status quo. And since then, we’ve had a sea of retcons that have undone or undermined several stories: Aunt May’s resurrection, MJ’s death, Harry’s return, Sins Past, OMD, the Kindred arc, etc. In conjunction, these retcons have muddied the overall flow of the 616 story.

The mid-90s also marked the first attempt to seriously adapt the Spider-man story with the Animated Series and was prior to any live action films (these adaptations would put their own spin on Spider-man that would influence future adaptations.) This period was also prior to the creation of Ultimate Spider-man which has had a significant influence on retellings of the character’s story and modern perceptions of the mythos (Ultimate itself basically put its own spin on the 616 continuity of the 1960s-1990s.)

The mid-90s is also a period that marks the genesis of several probable alternate futures for Peter Parker. Virtually all au’s that follow an older Peter Parker consider Peter’s marriage to Mary Jane canon, but they tend to involve different children and/or different circumstances that follow (MC2, RYV, Abram’s Spider-man, Spider-man Reign, etc.) Being that there are so many plausible futures for the story of 616, it makes any potential “true” canon events after the 90s hazy.

So where/when does your canon (or headcanon) end? Or for the folks who don't necessarily believe that canon has ended: is there a demarcation between classic Spider-man comics and modern Spider-man comics? And where exactly does that demarcation exist?

Edit: I meant to add an "It has never ended" option, if one of the mods can throw that in there! Thanks

[Blanks]

For me, my current head canon ends at the end of Spider-geddon where Ben Reilly was “reset” to factory settings, and there it will remain until he is reset “again”.

Or at least, I wouldn’t use the word canon. Just now, officially my spotting point for 616 Amazing. I’ll still keep up with Miles.

[Alan2099]

Canon hasn't ended.

Some people's headcanons may have ended, but that's a different thing altogether. I'm not saying that's a bad thing either. There's nothing wrong with seeing something saying "this isn't for me," and walking away.

As for where "classic Spider-man" ended... I would put the end of it at the point where Spider-man discovers his parents are robots. After that, it goes into his "I am the Spider!" phase and then the Clone Saga, which I feel was an entirely different thing from anything that could be considered "classic".

I would mark the beginning of modern Spider-man with the first appearance of Ezekiel and the beginning of the Spider-totem stuff, which led way to more mystical aspects of Spider-man and his time with the Avengers, which in turn led to things like One More Day, the Spider-Verse, and Superior Spider-man.

[clonegeek]

Canon hasn't ended.

Some people's headcanons may have ended, but that's a different thing altogether. I'm not saying that's a bad thing either. There's nothing wrong with seeing something saying "this isn't for me," and walking away.

As for where "classic Spider-man" ended... I would put the end of it at the point where Spider-man discovers his parents are robots. After that, it goes into his "I am the Spider!" phase and then the Clone Saga, which I feel was an entirely different thing from anything that could be considered "classic".

I would mark the beginning of modern Spider-man with the first appearance of Ezekiel and the beginning of the Spider-totem stuff, which led way to more mystical aspects of Spider-man and his time with the Avengers, which in turn led to things like One More Day, the Spider-Verse, and Superior Spider-man.

Canon isn't real though so none of this really matters

[Alan2099]

Canon isn't real though so none of this really matters

"This is an imaginary story ... aren't they all?"

[CaptainUniverse]

I have always considered Amazing Spider-Man #439 (the last issue of Tom DeFalco's late 90's ASM run) as the perfect jumping off point for canon (headcanon? IDK) and jumping on point for reading Mr. and Mrs. Spider-Man/Spider-Girl. The issue hints at Mayday becoming Peter's successor in the future and in case you absolutely need to know what happens in Gathering of Five/The Final Chapter, just wait until Spider-Girl #47-50, the events of MC2's Gathering of Five/The Final Chapter are laid out in flashbacks and puts a nice little bow on ASM vol.1 as opposed to "ZOMG, Aunt May was alive the whole time and the baby is actually dead! Now go read John Byrne's run to watch as MJ dies in a plane explosion, Peter kisses a fifteen year old girl and Venom eats Carnage!" That's just me though.

[Xenon]

I'm a sucker so I can't say I have an "end", that's part of why I care about the story being better and getting back what it had.

I think there are a lot of possible "endpoints" though. The two biggest that come to mind are "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" and ASM #500. You could I suppose also argue for OMD if you're a sadist and want a bad end.

ASM121-122 is a short run but there's some poetry in its ending. As ol' George Lucas said, "it rhymes". The story of Spider-Man starts because someone he loved died because he did nothing. The Night Gwen Stacy Died as an ending mirrors that, as it means the story "ends" with someone he loved dying because he DID something. I think MJ has a speech somewhere about Peter accepting that Uncle Ben may have died even if he did do something, and this is sort of that in story form. There's also just this sense of finality and change in it. Gwen is dead. GG is dead. Peter left Harry to his addictions, and MJ stays behind to take care of Peter. It would take a long time for everything that happened here to play out, but the only thing that didn't stick was GG being dead, and that took twenty years an an incompetent EiC to undo.

ASM500 makes a good ending because I think it's the last truly great Spider-Man issue. There have been good ones since, to be sure, but between the mess that is civil war, OMD, Slott's bad cahracterization, and now Wells' garbage I don't think the main title has ever achieved greatness since (which is pretty sad since it was twenty years ago). But it's a look at a potential future, a look through his past, and he gets to talk to Uncle Ben. It's not an ending ending, but it's a celebration of Spider-Man and the sort of tale that you can "end" on knowing he just kept on having adventures. You also avoid most of the bad stories in Spider-Man's story. You get the Mackie reboot boredom, you get Lifetheft (robot parents) you get the 90s clone saga, but 90% of what you get is good. The hit rate goes way down after this.

OMD is an end of sorts as well, as up until that point everything basically counted. Like sure, sometimes someone would fake a death or whatever. But there was always an explnation, it was always part of the story. and they were pretty good about letting things stick. Harry stayed dead. Norman almost did. OMD though was about undoing everything. Some of these things were recent and probably only let through because they were going to undo them, but others were decades old and had no real purpose in undoing (the marriage). It's an ending in a literal sense, the end of the long story being treated a certain way, of his progress, but of course it's an ending where the devil wins. It kind of reminds me of Persona 5 Royal's bad ending. Where everything seems good, but of course, it really isn't.

But, like I said, I don't think it really has ended. I'm not letting them off the hook. They should do a better job.

[Alan2099]

OMD is an end of sorts as well, as up until that point everything basically counted. Like sure, sometimes someone would fake a death or whatever. But there was always an explnation, it was always part of the story. and they were pretty good about letting things stick. Harry stayed dead. Norman almost did.

Please, let's not pretend they didn't undo character deaths or developments anytime it pleased them with only the slightest bits of justification.

[Alan2099]

I have always considered Amazing Spider-Man #439 (the last issue of Tom DeFalco's late 90's ASM run) as the perfect jumping off point for canon (headcanon? IDK) and jumping on point for reading Mr. and Mrs. Spider-Man/Spider-Girl.

I actually had to go look that one up to remember what was going on. It's an interesting choice for a finale, but it was a nice fun issue.

[JT221]

I actually had to go look that one up to remember what was going on. It's an interesting choice for a finale, but it was a nice fun issue.

I answered this question with basically when I stopped collecting the character, and that was One More Day.

That said, if I was to pick an issue that would have nicely closed out the series and told a pretty complete story, I would go with Amazing Spider-Man #200. That was a great ending story for the character.

[All Star Superman]

For me, it's the Clone Saga as it was ultimately published. I've read tons about the story (Life of Reilly, interviews with Jurgens and others) and goal of the story is something I was and continue to be fundamentally against: restoring a Silver/Bronze Age status quo. I feel that Marvel's characters, more than DC's, should evolve and change over time. The marriage was never the problem. It was the editors and writers who were too narrowminded to see beyond what they read growing up that destroyed Peter Parker's forward progression. Peter and Mary Jane starting a family with Aunt May gone could have led to some great stories. Some of the stuff that followed the Clone Saga, like the Hobgoblin's return and Peter teaching at his alma mater, was excellent and would have worked with Peter and MJ starting a family. Peter Parker has come full circle, his greatest responsibility being a father, husband, and The Amazing Spider-Man. He's learned at long last to balance his life and responsibilities and though that didn't mean his story was over, it's a good place to end it.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Or for the folks who don't necessarily believe that canon has ended: is there a demarcation between classic Spider-man comics and modern Spider-man comics? And where exactly does that demarcation exist?

That's me.

I voted for OMD, but only because everything after that is intentionally unimportant. Editorial literally wanted everything after that to stagnate and to just be action figures moving on page. But all of that is reversible. If someone were to undo OMD and write a great run, I wouldn't consider their work any less "canon" than pre-OMD stuff.


I like to divide the comics in 3 periods: The Classic era, the Modern era, and the 21st Century era (or 'Modern Era 2').

The Classic era is everything between Lee/Ditko and Wolfman. Self-explanatory, right? At least everything between AF#15 and Gwen's death counts as "canon" from this era.

The Modern era starts with Roger Stern and lasts all the way to Mackie. Roger Stern's Spidey is more-or-less where Spidey starts to sound like the Spidey we know, and it's also what kickstarts the second great era of Spidey comics. Since after Conway left, things became kinda "meh".

The 21st Century era starts in 2000 with Roger Stern's Revenge of the Green Goblin, but reaches its peak from JMS. I say it counts because there is too much from 2000-2007 that informed our idea of Spidey. Norman seeing Peter as a son and being obsessed with hurting him (which Raimi and NWH both adapted) is now iconic. Aunt May finding out Peter is Spider-Man is iconic. The 9/11 issue is iconic. Peter's job as a teacher is his second most iconic job after photography - to the point that Peter's role as a mentor in ITSV/ATSV and Insomniac is informed by it. Some Civil War stuff is iconic too, like Cap's "You Move" speech or the Iron Man connection - yeah, the MCU missed the point there and turned Pete into Iron Man Jr., but people don't have to "get" it for something to be iconic. Look at how Zack Snyder missed the message of Watchmen, but the Watchmen comic is still iconic.


There is obviously a bit of overlap. You can group the Wolfman run with the Stern stuff (since it introduces Black Cat), and you can almost group Byrne/Mackie with the 21st Century stuff (since it's late 90's and a pseudo-reboot ... so practically a 21st Century reboot).


I'm maybe pulling these numbers out of my ass, but I think most fans (about 3 out of 4) consider everything up to OMD canon. Out of the ones that don't, most of them consider only those first two eras canon. And an even smaller minority (the pro-OMD crowd) consider only the Classic era relevant.

[The_Sneezing_Stormtrooper]

The MC2 Spider-Girl series is the definitive ending or epilogue to ASM to me. They did the whole future of Spider-Man thing first and set the bar high enough that all subsequent alternate futures for Spidey are judged against it whenever I pick one up.

However, if we're talking strictly ASM and what I had to pick a finale to what I'd consider the classic Spidey that I grew up with in the 90s then I'd probably say Marvel Knights Spider-Man. I refuse to not include the first half of the JMS run before any definitive cut off and I think it's our best arc that with thar big grand feeling before we have to deal with any Sins Past or OMD ickyness.

MK:SM caps off the initial Eddie Brock era of Venom, has the last big battle between Peter and Norman before Norman forgets Spidey's secret ID for a long time, and it includes most of Spidey's classic villains in some way shape or form. Just feels like the last time we truly had Spidey square off with his biggest villain. The only back up he has is Black Cat and he doesn't even feel like he can trust the Avengers. It's just Spidey against the world.

After that it's all alternate costumes, Avengers spidey, multiverse spider-people, and arguing about superhero marriages.

[clonegeek]

That's me.

I voted for OMD, but only because everything after that is intentionally unimportant. Editorial literally wanted everything after that to stagnate and to just be action figures moving on page. But all of that is reversible. If someone were to undo OMD and write a great run, I wouldn't consider their work any less "canon" than pre-OMD stuff.


I like to divide the comics in 3 periods: The Classic era, the Modern era, and the 21st Century era (or 'Modern Era 2').

The Classic era is everything between Lee/Ditko and Wolfman. Self-explanatory, right? At least everything between AF#15 and Gwen's death counts as "canon" from this era.

The Modern era starts with Roger Stern and lasts all the way to Mackie. Roger Stern's Spidey is more-or-less where Spidey starts to sound like the Spidey we know, and it's also what kickstarts the second great era of Spidey comics. Since after Conway left, things became kinda "meh".

The 21st Century era starts in 2000 with Roger Stern's Revenge of the Green Goblin, but reaches its peak from JMS. I say it counts because there is too much from 2000-2007 that informed our idea of Spidey. Norman seeing Peter as a son and being obsessed with hurting him (which Raimi and NWH both adapted) is now iconic. Aunt May finding out Peter is Spider-Man is iconic. The 9/11 issue is iconic. Peter's job as a teacher is his second most iconic job after photography - to the point that Peter's role as a mentor in ITSV/ATSV and Insomniac is informed by it. Some Civil War stuff is iconic too, like Cap's "You Move" speech or the Iron Man connection - yeah, the MCU missed the point there and turned Pete into Iron Man Jr., but people don't have to "get" it for something to be iconic. Look at how Zack Snyder missed the message of Watchmen, but the Watchmen comic is still iconic.


There is obviously a bit of overlap. You can group the Wolfman run with the Stern stuff (since it introduces Black Cat), and you can almost group Byrne/Mackie with the JMS stuff (since it's late 90's and a pseudo-reboot ... so practically a 21st Century reboot).


I think most fans (about 3 out of 4) consider everything up to OMD canon. Out of the ones that don't, most of them consider only those first two eras canon.

Clone Saga is when the canon started to frey, OMD is when they started to cut the rope of canon in a middle figure

[Xenon]

Please, let's not pretend they didn't undo character deaths or developments anytime it pleased them with only the slightest bits of justification.

They're pretty minimal for a long time. Again. Norman stayed dead for twenty years. Harry stayed dead. Gwen Stayed dead. Peter's graduation from high school and college stuck. Ned had been dead for twenty years. Of course there were still fake outs and revivals, especially for villains, and the clone saga nonsense had a decent amount of bad stuff. But it was largely kept to a minimum and there's was always an explanation and it generally made some sense. Meanwhile, OMD undid Peter's organic webshooters, and no reason has ever been given.