When does your Spider-man canon end?

[Mister Mets]

Thinking some more on this, I guess my canon goes up to Amazing Spider-Man #150.

After the death of Gwen Stacy, we had the introduction of the Punisher, Harry Osborn becoming the Green Goblin and Peter getting closer with MJ.

Afterwards, the series spent some time spinning its wheels. The Len Wein run and first half of Wolfman run weren't really essential, to say nothing of the spinoff titles.

There were some good stretches, but it wasn't as consistently important. And some of the most important stories could be retold in major ways. For example, few would mind a cleaner version of the Hobgoblin saga, or an alien costume story where Eddie Brock is part of Peter's supporting cast.

[Spider-Tiger]

I went back and checked some dates on this just out of my own curiosity.

The first issue of Spider-girl started August '98
The LAST issue of Chapter One released Aug '99
The first issue of Ultimate was September 2000.

That's a lot of alternate Spider-titles really close together.

Great thread!

I generally tend to agree with you that the mid-90's are a good 'cut-off point'. Though personally, I'd go with the wedding, and some of the stuff that happened immediately after, like Kraven's Last Hunt and the emergence of Venom.

When it comes to 'canon' in a superhero franchise, I tend to a lay a lot of emphasis on what's the material that adaptations tend to focus on, or which the source material itself keeps trying to regurgitate - which I feel is very close to how ATSV presented 'canon' events in a meta way. And if you think about it, most Spider-Man adaptations tend to be a take on the Lee/Dikto/Romita eras, with a few elements from later eras making it in - namely the Peter-MJ relationship/marriage and Venom.

If you look at what the pop-culture perception of Spider-Man is, there's very little from after the introduction of Venom that really resonates. Carnage (but I don't think he's ever been as popular as Venom). Spider-Man being an Avenger (which is still far from being an 'iconic' status quo for the character, and is really something more external to the Spider-Man mythos). Miles Morales, arguably (and even he's a take on the Lee/Dikto/Romita Spider-Man with a new diverse lead). The whole concept of a Spider-Verse and multiple versions of the character, which is mainly down to the Spider-Verse movies, and is again less about 'canon' and more about how we get endless variations of the Spider-Man canon from the 60's to the 80's (or maybe the 90's).

Precisely how I view it. The 60- 90s canon is the prime or earth one or classic Spider-man canon from which all others derive. The true genesis of the Spider-verse era was with the Clone Saga. After that was when we really started to see an influx of re-interpretations and spin-offs of that canon (which meta-contextually works for what ATSV was going for.)

The 616 continuity still technically exists, but it lost its punch when we started to get all of these alternative Spider-men and alternative takes on Peter Parker's story. Perhaps the most influential Spider-man comic series to come out of the 21st century has been Ultimate Spider-Man: and that's largely just a remix of 60s-90s stuff.

(That's not to at all to say that I don't enjoy the JMS stuff and/or wouldn't like to see OMD reversed at some point to pick up where JMS left off. Just that the Clone Saga, for me, really does mark the "end" of an era.)

[bat39]

Precisely how I view it. The 60- 90s canon is the prime or earth one or classic Spider-man canon from which all others derive. The true genesis of the Spider-verse era was with the Clone Saga. After that was when we really started to see an influx of re-interpretations and spin-offs of that canon (which meta-contextually works for what ATSV was going for.)

The 616 continuity still technically exists, but it lost its punch when we started to get all of these alternative Spider-men and alternative takes on Peter Parker's story. Perhaps the most influential Spider-man comic series to come out of the 21st century has been Ultimate Spider-Man: and that's largely just a remix of 60s-90s stuff.

(That's not to at all to say that I don't enjoy the JMS stuff and/or wouldn't like to see OMD reversed at some point to pick up where JMS left off. Just that the Clone Saga, for me, really does mark the "end" of an era.)

Yeah I suppose Ben Reilly was the first real 'alternate' Spider-Man, and he was also a version of Peter Parker. So the Clone Saga may well have been the genesis of the Spider-Verse. After reading your post, kinda hoping they do a lot more with Ben Reilly in the next Spider-Verse film

But for better or worse (better, I'd argue) the Clone Saga hasn't really made it to adaptations. Well, the Ultimate Universe did a take on it I believe. It doesn't really have the same 'canonical' weight as Peter-MJ, the Lee/Dikto-era villains, Gwen Stacy's death, the Symbiote and Venom etc. Still, there are some great points in favor of it being the end of the 'classic' Spider-Man canon.

[Alan2099]

Yeah I suppose Ben Reilly was the first real 'alternate' Spider-Man, and he was also a version of Peter Parker. So the Clone Saga may well have been the genesis of the Spider-Verse. After reading your post, kinda hoping they do a lot more with Ben Reilly in the next Spider-Verse film

But for better or worse (better, I'd argue) the Clone Saga hasn't really made it to adaptations. Well, the Ultimate Universe did a take on it I believe. It doesn't really have the same 'canonical' weight as Peter-MJ, the Lee/Dikto-era villains, Gwen Stacy's death, the Symbiote and Venom etc. Still, there are some great points in favor of it being the end of the 'classic' Spider-Man canon.

The 90s cartoon episode that introduced the prototype Spiderverse was called "I really really hate clones," and featured Miles Warren and the Scarlet Spider, so that ties them together nicely.

[Spider-Tiger]

Yeah I suppose Ben Reilly was the first real 'alternate' Spider-Man, and he was also a version of Peter Parker. So the Clone Saga may well have been the genesis of the Spider-Verse. After reading your post, kinda hoping they do a lot more with Ben Reilly in the next Spider-Verse film

But for better or worse (better, I'd argue) the Clone Saga hasn't really made it to adaptations. Well, the Ultimate Universe did a take on it I believe. It doesn't really have the same 'canonical' weight as Peter-MJ, the Lee/Dikto-era villains, Gwen Stacy's death, the Symbiote and Venom etc. Still, there are some great points in favor of it being the end of the 'classic' Spider-Man canon.

Yeah I can see that. The Clone Saga for me just marks a paradigm shift even if it hasnt been adapted as much in and of itself. I think there were other influential stories in the 90s as well. I would say Spec 200 has been an influential story (both with the death of Harry and how it reframes the Peter/Harry friendship which would inform the Raimi trilogy.) I think ASM 400 is also starting to see some influence as well. But more than anything else, for me, it just signals the end of one linear Peter Parker story in favor of retellings and reboots.

[Celgress]

Classic Spider-Man Canon ends with OMD, IMHO. Post-OMD not only is continuity a convoluted mess but also Peter/Spidey no longer feels like he is progressing as a character nor does his world; the narrative structure went from more serialized to more episodic. There is no longer a straightforward through-thread from AF 15 until today because no one is sure exactly what is canon and what isn't from just before what would have been the Wedding until BND.

[bat39]

Yeah I can see that. The Clone Saga for me just marks a paradigm shift even if it hasnt been adapted as much in and of itself. I think there were other influential stories in the 90s as well. I would say Spec 200 has been an influential story (both with the death of Harry and how it reframes the Peter/Harry friendship which would inform the Raimi trilogy.) I think ASM 400 is also starting to see some influence as well. But more than anything else, for me, it just signals the end of one linear Peter Parker story in favor of retellings and reboots.

You make a good point about Harry...especially his death which made it to Spider-Man 3.

Hmm...that actually makes the Raimi trilogy a pretty good precis of 'canon' Spider-Man It covers all the bases - the origin, the Peter-Harry friendship, the Peter-MJ relationship (which likely leads to marriage after the credits roll on Spider-Man 3), iconic Lee-Dikto era villains (Green Goblin, Doc Ock, Sandman), the death of Norman Osborn leading to Harry turning against Peter and becoming the next Goblin, the Alien Costume Saga and Venom, and finally, Harry's death.

About the only major thing it skips over is Peter-Gwen relationship and the death of Gwen Stacy...and the latter gets referenced in the iconic bridge scene of the first film.

[KurtW95]

It's complicated. I would say that the place where negative aspects start getting added to the Spider-Man mythos is Gwen's death. Particularly because she shouldn't have died. And while there are a lot of great components that come after, like Venom and others. There is also a lot a bad. Though, I don't think all of canon needs to be erased to repair it. I would say, keep all up until Lee is off ASM. Pretty concrete. Keep all that. Though maybe bring back George Stacy. I know Stan was involved with that, but I don't think he needed to die. Certainly not Gwen. But George has potential to be a Commissioner Gordon style character. Would keep pretty much all of the canon up to the 00s, but not the marriage or Harry's death. Would not have Kraven and Chameleon be related. Peter would be dating Gwen and working at the Daily Bugle as a photographer taking photos of Spider-Man with J. Jonah Jameson not knowing he's Spider-Man. I know it is now popular to say you want character to progress and blah blah blah. But a good writer can keep a character's core traits and situation and build off of it in a manner that is memorable but doesn't completely change or deconstruct to a place where the the franchise has become unrecognizable. As many are in comics today. It's easy to break characters. But it requires actual creativity to build off of characters.

[Spider-Tiger]

You make a good point about Harry...especially his death which made it to Spider-Man 3.

Hmm...that actually makes the Raimi trilogy a pretty good precis of 'canon' Spider-Man It covers all the bases - the origin, the Peter-Harry friendship, the Peter-MJ relationship (which likely leads to marriage after the credits roll on Spider-Man 3), iconic Lee-Dikto era villains (Green Goblin, Doc Ock, Sandman), the death of Norman Osborn leading to Harry turning against Peter and becoming the next Goblin, the Alien Costume Saga and Venom, and finally, Harry's death.

About the only major thing it skips over is Peter-Gwen relationship and the death of Gwen Stacy...and the latter gets referenced in the iconic bridge scene of the first film.

Oh I definitely think the Raimi trilogy is ostensibly the "classic" Spider-man canon to the masses. They feature 3 of Spider-man's most prominent villains: The Green Goblin, Doc Ock, and Venom, his most prominent love interest, and the three movies together essentially act as a cliffsnotes for 3 decades of comics (Origin Story, Osborn saga, Alien Costume Saga, etc.). While the death of Gwen Stacy isn't outright there, it's definitely alluded to and there's a pretty direct adaptation of Norman's death in ASM 122 in the first film.

I think that's why Spider-verse essentially references Raimi canon when they introduce Peter Parker.

[Lee]

There is no longer a straightforward through-thread from AF 15 until today because no one is sure exactly what is canon and what isn't from just before what would have been the Wedding until BND.

One Moment In Time explained it all.

[Alan2099]

Classic Spider-Man Canon ends with OMD, IMHO. Post-OMD not only is continuity a convoluted mess but also Peter/Spidey no longer feels like he is progressing as a character nor does his world; the narrative structure went from more serialized to more episodic. There is no longer a straightforward through-thread from AF 15 until today because no one is sure exactly what is canon and what isn't from just before what would have been the Wedding until BND.

They started out with everything is canon but the wedding, there were a few small changes here and there, but they explained every one of them. Which is better than most retcons do. If you want to look for holes in things, go back to before they revealed MJ always knew who Peter was and you'll find tons of them. Or there's the example of the microscope that Uncle Ben gave Peter that Peter left on Ben's grave. Then he later gave it to charity. Then it was a laptop computer instead.

[Xenon]

One Moment In Time explained it all.

Why doesn't he have organic web shooters?

[CaptainUniverse]

Why doesn't he have organic web shooters?

To add to this...if OMIT is supposed to be canon to Earth-616, then why is it set on Earth-81545? Doesn't that just make it a mediocre WHAT IF? fan fiction comic using the Amazing Spider-Man title for clout? Oh, and why does Peter Parker look like Joe Quesada in OMIT? (I'm totally serious, go read the parts of OMIT where Peter is talking to Mary Jane in the present and you will see it for yourself) And why is Mary Jane acting completely out of character? Where are Peter's "The Other" powers? If OMIT was canon then why wasn't it ever brought up during Nick Spencer's run? How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? These are all very important questions that I must know that answer to! Especially that last one.

[Alan2099]

To add to this...if OMIT is supposed to be canon to Earth-616, then why is it set on Earth-81545? Doesn't that just make it a mediocre WHAT IF? fan fiction comic using the Amazing Spider-Man title for clout?

Do you consider all alternate reality stories What IFs? If so, what about those times when a reality is changed, and then changed back like the Age of Apocalypse or that time Kulan Gath took over New York and crusified Spider-man?

Oh, and why does Peter Parker look like Joe Quesada in OMIT? (I'm totally serious, go read the parts of OMIT where Peter is talking to Mary Jane in the present and you will see it for yourself)

That's part of Mephisto's curse. He should consider himself lucky though. One time Namor looked liked Bendis for no reason anybody can figure out.

And why is Mary Jane acting completely out of character?

She does that some times.

Where are Peter's "The Other" powers?

He sold them and used the money to buy candy.

If OMIT was canon then why wasn't it ever brought up during Nick Spencer's run?

Lots of things that are canon weren't brought up in Spencer's run.

How many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop? These are all very important questions that I must know that answer to! Especially that last one.

Three.

[CaptainUniverse]

Do you consider all alternate reality stories What IFs? If so, what about those times when a reality is changed, and then changed back like the Age of Apocalypse or that time Kulan Gath took over New York and crusified Spider-man?

I guess not.

That's part of Mephisto's curse. He should consider himself lucky though. One time Namor looked liked Bendis for no reason anybody can figure out.

Huh...weird.

She does that some times.

That Mary Jane was probably a Skrull, there were a lot of those in the late 00's.

He sold them and used the money to buy candy.

It was Gummy Bears, wasn't it?

Lots of things that are canon weren't brought up in Spencer's run.

Given how much he was hinting at undoing OMD, you'd think it would have been brought up at some point though...

Three.

Thanks Mr. Owl!