Into the SuperVerse - Supers related spoilers/discussion for The Flash film

[bat39]

spoilers:

I would've liked Routh to make the cut if for no other reason than to dissociate Routh and Reeve's Supermen. My headcanon is that Routh's and Reeve are multiversal counterparts whose respective universes were pretty similar and had some of the same events, but things turned out a little differently.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

Yeah, honestly, that's how I'm starting to see them as well. As it is, Bryan Singer said back then that the Donner movies were a 'vague history' for Superman Returns. Plus, obviously Routh's Superman didn't debut in 1978 And since this film (and increasingly, DC in general) have separated the Burton and Schumacher takes on Batman, by having Keaton and Clooney both appear as their respective versions, it's not impossible to have done the same with Reeve and Routh. That said, given the vast tonal disparities, its easy to view the Keaton and Clooney Batmen as distinct versions of the character. While Routh's version really is very much in line with Reeve's version in every respect - though the Arrowverse COIE did differentiate him a bit by making him the Kingdom Come Superman (but also threw in a Superman III reference).

end of spoilers

[Monari]

The Flash is a very enjoyable film and a love letter to the DCU and Zack Snyder's much maligned Man of Steel

With how they treated both Cavill and his Clark Kent in the story it feels like the exact opposite actually.

[Last Son of Krypton]

With how they treated both Cavill and his Clark Kent in the story it feels like the exact opposite actually.

You think? It shows an alternate scenario where without Superman, Zod wins. It doesn't undermine Cavill's Superman or MoS, quite the opposite. You need Superman to save the world from annihilation and snap Zod's neck.

spoilers:

Your era breakdown is a pretty cool way of looking at it, and maybe that was intentional! I suppose Lynda Carter's Wonder Woman would have slotted in well with the Bronze Age had they kept her cameo.

end of spoilers

👍

spoilers:

I would've liked Routh to make the cut if for no other reason than to dissociate Routh and Reeve's Supermen. My headcanon is that Routh's and Reeve are multiversal counterparts whose respective universes were pretty similar and had some of the same events, but things turned out a little differently.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

Yeah, honestly, that's how I'm starting to see them as well. As it is, Bryan Singer said back then that the Donner movies were a 'vague history' for Superman Returns. Plus, obviously Routh's Superman didn't debut in 1978 And since this film (and increasingly, DC in general) have separated the Burton and Schumacher takes on Batman, by having Keaton and Clooney both appear as their respective versions, it's not impossible to have done the same with Reeve and Routh. That said, given the vast tonal disparities, its easy to view the Keaton and Clooney Batmen as distinct versions of the character. While Routh's version really is very much in line with Reeve's version in every respect - though the Arrowverse COIE did differentiate him a bit by making him the Kingdom Come Superman (but also threw in a Superman III reference).

end of spoilers

I view it like in the comics: Morrison's NuSuperman had elements of Golden Age Superman but it's not the same version, similarly Routh's Superman had elements of Reeve's Supes but they aren't one and the same. Also, Chris Reeve's take is too iconic that treat it like he was "recast" with Routh is insulting. No offense to Routh. They are their own versions of Superman with some similarities.

Btw, look who appears into the variant cover of BM/SM #19 lmao:


https://aiptcomics.com/2023/06/20/fu...solicitations/

[DochaDocha]

You think? It shows an alternate scenario where without Superman, Zod wins. It doesn't undermine Cavill's Superman or MoS, quite the opposite. You need Superman to save the world from annihilation and snap Zod's neck.

With specific regard to Cavill, I'd say it's either neutral or somewhat disrespectful that his cameo was chopped. But it's sort of par for the course for Cavill and most things after 2017.

[bat39]

With how they treated both Cavill and his Clark Kent in the story it feels like the exact opposite actually.

That's not really on Andy Muschetti or anyone actually involved in the making of the film though, but more on TPTB. The film itself seems to revere Cavill's Superman. Ezra's Barry spends the whole film basically fanboying over Superman and how he's absolutely critical in order to defeat Zod and end the invasion.

spoilers:

And of course, it turns out by the end that he was absolutely right! Without Cavill's Superman, there is no saving the world from Zod.

end of spoilers

We know for a fact now that Cavill's Superman was intended to appear in the film. The fact that he didn't is down to the larger DCEU/DCU maneuverings involving multiple different DC Films regimes.

You think? It shows an alternate scenario where without Superman, Zod wins. It doesn't undermine Cavill's Superman or MoS, quite the opposite. You need Superman to save the world from annihilation and snap Zod's neck.



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I view it like in the comics: Morrison's NuSuperman had elements of Golden Age Superman but it's not the same version, similarly Routh's Superman had elements of Reeve's Supes but they aren't one and the same. Also, Chris Reeve's take is too iconic that treat it like he was "recast" with Routh is insulting. No offense to Routh. They are their own versions of Superman with some similarities.

Btw, look who appears into the variant cover of BM/SM #19 lmao:


https://aiptcomics.com/2023/06/20/fu...solicitations/

Recasting was pretty much the norm though when Superman Returns was being produced. The 'reboot' concept hadn't quiet become so ubiquitous. And while Singer did mention the 'vague history' bit, Returns very much does feel like a sequel to Superman: The Movie (and to a lesser extent, Superman II...at least insofar as you assume that Jason was conceived during the love scene in that movie. Which admittedly does have some messed up implications, given that Lois' memory of sleeping with Superman was wiped at the end of that film, so maybe that's why the 'vague history' bit is so important ). In fact, Returns feels a lot like a 'legacy sequel' in the vein of Terminator Dark Fate, Jurassic World or Star Wars: The Force Awakens, albeit everyone is recast.

I think if Routh had done more movies and gotten to develop his take on the character better, things might have been different. To a lesser extent, he got to do that in the Arrowverse COIE. But considering just the films, there's very little to really distinguish him from the Reeve Superman, apart from the slightly redesigned suit and being someone living in 2006 rather than 1978.

[Last Son of Krypton]

With specific regard to Cavill, I'd say it's either neutral or somewhat disrespectful that his cameo was chopped. But it's sort of par for the course for Cavill and most things after 2017.

Yeah, it was such a **** show. Hamada's plan to provide a send-off for Cavill and Snyder's JLers in a Crisis film wasn't ideal, but still better than no send-off or closure. I felt like Gunn took it personal to remove him because he was going to announce his own Superman project and the casting of a new Superman was going to happen when The Flash was releasing.

Keaton, Affleck and Calle got the short end of the stick under Gunn. spoilers:

Keaton gets killed by Nam-EK, Kara is killed by Zod and they get wiped out by the timeline reset at the end. Affleck gets "erased" and replaced by Clooney in the DCEU.

end of spoilers

The director's mental gymnastics to justify Kara's fate lmao: https://thedirect.com/article/the-fl...spoilers-movie

[DochaDocha]

Yeah, it was such a **** show. Hamada's plan to provide a send-off for Cavill and Snyder's JLers in a Crisis film wasn't ideal, but still better than no send-off or closure. I felt like Gunn took it personal to remove him because he was going to announce his own Superman project and the casting of a new Superman was going to happen when The Flash was releasing.

Keaton, Affleck and Calle got the short end of the stick under Gunn. spoilers:

Keaton gets killed by Nam-EK, Kara is killed by Zod and they get wiped out by the timeline reset at the end. Affleck gets "erased" and replaced by Clooney in the DCEU.

end of spoilers

The director's mental gymnastics to justify Kara's fate lmao: https://thedirect.com/article/the-fl...spoilers-movie

spoilers:

I may be mis-remembering how things went down, but I think Hamada's great idea (gee, why'd he get replaced?) was that Supergirl would be the hero the DCEU would move forward with and Superman would be left behind. So, in a very strange way, it's almost cathartic to hear that Supergirl died in the film just so we could point and laugh at Hamada's terrible idea.

end of spoilers

If you're into schadenfreude, the DCEU is the gift that never stops giving.

[Last Son of Krypton]

That's not really on Andy Muschetti or anyone actually involved in the making of the film though, but more on TPTB. The film itself seems to revere Cavill's Superman. Ezra's Barry spends the whole film basically fanboying over Superman and how he's absolutely critical in order to defeat Zod and end the invasion.

spoilers:

And of course, it turns out by the end that he was absolutely right! Without Cavill's Superman, there is no saving the world from Zod.

end of spoilers

We know for a fact now that Cavill's Superman was intended to appear in the film. The fact that he didn't is down to the larger DCEU/DCU maneuverings involving multiple different DC Films regimes.

This.

Cavill had talks to reprise his role in 2020 under Hamada (it was around the same time Hamada was in talks with Keaton, Affleck and Fisher to appear in The Flash). No idea why negotiations went nowhere back then. But Hamada still planned to bring back Cavill for the Crisis film (the Snyderverse send-off). Finally filmed for Thee Flash in 2022 just to get removed 2 months later by Gunn. The Cavill situation is some big mess.

Recasting was pretty much the norm though when Superman Returns was being produced. The 'reboot' concept hadn't quiet become so ubiquitous. And while Singer did mention the 'vague history' bit, Returns very much does feel like a sequel to Superman: The Movie (and to a lesser extent, Superman II...at least insofar as you assume that Jason was conceived during the love scene in that movie. Which admittedly does have some messed up implications, given that Lois' memory of sleeping with Superman was wiped at the end of that film, so maybe that's why the 'vague history' bit is so important ). In fact, Returns feels a lot like a 'legacy sequel' in the vein of Terminator Dark Fate, Jurassic World or Star Wars: The Force Awakens, albeit everyone is recast.

I think if Routh had done more movies and gotten to develop his take on the character better, things might have been different. To a lesser extent, he got to do that in the Arrowverse COIE. But considering just the films, there's very little to really distinguish him from the Reeve Superman, apart from the slightly redesigned suit and being someone living in 2006 rather than 1978.

Yeah, Returns treats SM:TM and the Donner's Cut as it's canon. I guess it's more like when a remake of an old movie gets made with new actors. And SM Returns was a quasi-remake. Can't see it really in continuity with Reeves' films.

[Last Son of Krypton]

spoilers:

I may be mis-remembering how things went down, but I think Hamada's great idea (gee, why'd he get replaced?) was that Supergirl would be the hero the DCEU would move forward with and Superman would be left behind. So, in a very strange way, it's almost cathartic to hear that Supergirl died in the film just so we could point and laugh at Hamada's terrible idea.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

Kara and Keaton's deaths were always in the film, but at the end when Barry fixed the timeline, they exists in the main DCEU but with a different history from the ones from the flashpoint timeline. Can't say for sure what was the plan for Supergirl after because there wasn't anything concrete put in motion (Kara is only referenced once in the post-The Flash films made). It's known Supergirl was supposed to have a standalone movie (no idea if it was meant to be a cheap HBO Max film like Batgirl and the other new gen heroes) and appears in the Flash sequel, I assume some multiverse Superman was going to be there too, because the plan was to establish the multiverse via The Flash franchise to built to a new universe and wrap up the Snyderverse continuity. Hamada was going to relaunch/reboot the DCU after The Flash 2 with that Crisis film.

end of spoilers

If you're into schadenfreude, the DCEU is the gift that never stops giving.

Lmao, true.

[bat39]

This.

Cavill had talks to reprise his role in 2020 under Hamada (it was around the same time Hamada was in talks with Keaton, Affleck and Fisher to appear in The Flash). No idea why negotiations went nowhere back then. But Hamada still planned to bring back Cavill for the Crisis film (the Snyderverse send-off). Finally filmed for Thee Flash in 2022 just to get removed 2 months later by Gunn. The Cavill situation is some big mess.

Let's not forget that at one point in the not too distant past, there was even the possibility of Cavill returning in an MOS sequel.


spoilers:

What really bugs me is Cavill not showing up early in the film at least, along with the other Leaguers. Apparently that scene was filmed as well. Even if you don't want Cavill at the end because you're rebooting Superman in the new DCU, at least let him take a final bow at the start alongside Gadot and Affleck.

end of spoilers

Yeah, Returns treats SM:TM and the Donner's Cut as it's canon. I guess it's more like when a remake of an old movie gets made with new actors. And SM Returns was a quasi-remake. Can't see it really in continuity with Reeves' films.

I wouldn't say it treats the Donner Cut as canon. That wouldn't make sense actually...the Donner Cut ends with Superman reversing time and erasing the events of the film, including sleeping with Lois. Of course, you could argue that Superman still could have slept with Lois in the 'new' timeline, but that seems less likely. On the flip side though, Lois having her memories of sleeping with Superman erased, as in the theatrical cut, but then ending up pregnant with his child is...not a great look.

The Donner Cut anyway only works in its own self-contained continuity. It doesn't even naturally follow on from Superman: The Movie as we know it...in the context of the Donner Cut, Superman didn't reverse time to save Lois (the time reversal only happens after the Zod invasion).

As for Returns, yes it's a quasi-remake, but in the same sense as legacy sequels like Jurassic World and Star Wars The Force Awakens. It's technically a sequel that acknowledges the events of the original film, but then proceeds to more or less follow the same basic plot as the original with a few twists. In the case of Star Wars The Force Awakens for instance, it's the same basic plot, but we have a new generation playing the familiar roles, while the old generation are around too. In Jurrassic World, the wrinkle is that the park is now up and running as planned when the dinosaur attack starts. Likewise, in Superman Returns you have the same old jazz of Lex Luthor planning a sophisticated land-grab while targeting Superman with kryptonite, except this time its against the backdrop of Superman having returned from a 5 year absence, Luthor using Kryptonian tech for his scheme, and of course the final wrinkle of Jason.

[Last Son of Krypton]

Worth to repost over here too:

During the global press conference for The Flash, Sasha Calle revealed she met Cavill and he loved the film. Of course he did, the world is fated to die at Zod's hand if he isn't around to save everyone's ass.

Sasha Calle, who plays Kara Zor-El, Clark Kent's Kryptonian relative, in the new movie, tells EW that she met Man of Steel headliner Henry Cavill and received his stamp of approval.

"Yes, I met him," she exclaims. "I met him actually after the movie was done, months later. I gave him a big hug. You know, it's Henry Cavill, man! Our Man of Steel. He is kind and very proper, and it was a great experience."

"I asked him, 'Did I make you proud, cuz? Does Superman approve?'" she continues. "And he was like, 'Absolutely. You did a phenomenal job.' I think, to me, that meant the world, because it's Henry Cavill, Man of Steel."

https://ew.com/movies/the-flash-supe...vill-approval/

I asked her if she had ever talked to a Superman or a Supergirl for any advice and SHE TALKED TO HERNY CAVILL and MELISSA BENOIST!!! Herny ALREADY SAW THE MOVIE and he loved it💣💣💣

https://twitter.com/hablemosdecinex/...89862080929792

“DID I MAKE YOU PROUD?” Sasha Calle (@SashaCalle) and I got emotional talking about her run in with Henry Cavill after he saw #TheFlash! Check out our fun interview! VIDEO:

https://twitter.com/JakesTakes/statu...85486274887681

[Last Son of Krypton]

Let's not forget that at one point in the not too distant past, there was even the possibility of Cavill returning in an MOS sequel.

Yeah, DeLuca wanted to give another shot and make MoS 2 and JL2 with Cavill, but both projects never went past the pitching stage. Can't say if it was more short-lived Cavill's return or DeLuca's leadership.

spoilers:

What really bugs me is Cavill not showing up early in the film at least, along with the other Leaguers. Apparently that scene was filmed as well. Even if you don't want Cavill at the end because you're rebooting Superman in the new DCU, at least let him take a final bow at the start alongside Gadot and Affleck.

end of spoilers

I don't think he had filmed something for the beginning of the movie, there was always only that scene of Superman being busy in Guatemala with a volcano (it was made long before his return). I started mentioning it around a year ago after the early test screenings of The Flash:

at the beginning of the movie, SM is on the news on TV saving some place from some disaster.

From what I know Henry filmed 2 scenes: in one, while Barry is racing back in time, he appears as Superman in the speedforce covered by particles and Barry says something like ah, here's where you have been the whole time. And the scene at the end as Clark Kent appearing with Gal's Diana to congrats with Barry.

I wouldn't say it treats the Donner Cut as canon. That wouldn't make sense actually...the Donner Cut ends with Superman reversing time and erasing the events of the film, including sleeping with Lois. Of course, you could argue that Superman still could have slept with Lois in the 'new' timeline, but that seems less likely. On the flip side though, Lois having her memories of sleeping with Superman erased, as in the theatrical cut, but then ending up pregnant with his child is...not a great look.

The Donner Cut anyway only works in its own self-contained continuity. It doesn't even naturally follow on from Superman: The Movie as we know it...in the context of the Donner Cut, Superman didn't reverse time to save Lois (the time reversal only happens after the Zod invasion).

Oh right, I forgot the time reversal for some reason.

And damn, DC had always problems with alternate endings and cuts of their movies lol.

As for Returns, yes it's a quasi-remake, but in the same sense as legacy sequels like Jurassic World and Star Wars The Force Awakens. It's technically a sequel that acknowledges the events of the original film, but then proceeds to more or less follow the same basic plot as the original with a few twists. In the case of Star Wars The Force Awakens for instance, it's the same basic plot, but we have a new generation playing the familiar roles, while the old generation are around too. In Jurrassic World, the wrinkle is that the park is now up and running as planned when the dinosaur attack starts. Likewise, in Superman Returns you have the same old jazz of Lex Luthor planning a sophisticated land-grab while targeting Superman with kryptonite, except this time its against the backdrop of Superman having returned from a 5 year absence, Luthor using Kryptonian tech for his scheme, and of course the final wrinkle of Jason.

Singer was too reverential of Donner's SM to be able to tell a his own story like he did with the X-Men franchise. I wonder if he ever got exposed to other Superman material outside of those old films. The rumored plot for Singer's Superman sequel sounded insane like wtf? is that supposed to be a course correction? https://superman.fandom.com/wiki/Sup...e_Man_of_Steel

[DochaDocha]

I remember reading interviews from 2006 that stated that Singer ignored certain aspects of the Donner films, which is why Lois remembers sleeping with Superman without remembering Clark is Superman. Those are just some of the symptoms of Singer's approach to making Superman Returns.

I wonder what kind of actor would express disappointment if another actor specifically asked if she did a good job.

[bat39]

Yeah, DeLuca wanted to give another shot and make MoS 2 and JL2 with Cavill, but both projects never went past the pitching stage. Can't say if it was more short-lived Cavill's return or DeLuca's leadership.



I don't think he had filmed something for the beginning of the movie, there was always only that scene of Superman being busy in Guatemala with a volcano (it was made long before his return). I started mentioning it around a year ago after the early test screenings of The Flash:



From what I know Henry filmed 2 scenes: in one, while Barry is racing back in time, he appears as Superman in the speedforce covered by particles and Barry says something like ah, here's where you have been the whole time. And the scene at the end as Clark Kent appearing with Gal's Diana to congrats with Barry.



Oh right, I forgot the time reversal for some reason.

And damn, DC had always problems with alternate endings and cuts of their movies lol.



Singer was too reverential of Donner's SM to be able to tell a his own story like he did with the X-Men franchise. I wonder if he ever got exposed to other Superman material outside of those old films. The rumored plot for Singer's Superman sequel sounded insane like wtf? is that supposed to be a course correction? https://superman.fandom.com/wiki/Sup...e_Man_of_Steel

Wow...never read this outline before, though I'd heard vaguely that Brainiac was supposed to be the villain for the sequel. Brainiac is always supposed to be the villain in some hypothetical sequel that never comes

That's why I honestly hope that Gunn just goes all out with Superman Legacy and delivers Brainiac upfront!

I remember reading interviews from 2006 that stated that Singer ignored certain aspects of the Donner films, which is why Lois remembers sleeping with Superman without remembering Clark is Superman. Those are just some of the symptoms of Singer's approach to making Superman Returns.

I wonder what kind of actor would express disappointment if another actor specifically asked if she did a good job.

Didn't remember reading that though I'd read the 'vague history' bit.

The way I see it, Superman: The Movie was completely canon to Returns, albeit it was probably set in the late 90's/early 2000's rather than in 1978. And aspects of Superman II were canon, such as Superman sleeping with Lois at some point, and Luthor possibly having visited the Fortress of Solitude. Maybe the Zod, Ursa and Non invasion too (after all, those three were established in the first film as being in the Phantom Zone).

Superman II, specifically Lester's version, just seems a bit too campy to be part of the backstory of Superman Returns as is.

[All Star Superman]

Reeves was supposed to appear in Supergirl but couldn't so they just did the poster instead.

Is it nice seeing them together finally? Yeah. Just sucks that it looked so bad that a fan could make a better looking version of the scene.

How was Reeves going to appear in Supergirl? He died in 1959.

I remember reading interviews from 2006 that stated that Singer ignored certain aspects of the Donner films, which is why Lois remembers sleeping with Superman without remembering Clark is Superman. Those are just some of the symptoms of Singer's approach to making Superman Returns.

I wonder what kind of actor would express disappointment if another actor specifically asked if she did a good job.

I took it that Lois didn't remember sleeping with Superman at all, which was incredibly creepy. It was a horrible idea to reference the inferior sequels to Superman The Movie, but especially the "Super Kiss." Had Superman Returns ignored all the sequels, a far better film might have resulted.