Does Spider-Man suffer from too many retcons?

[Kurus]

I agree. The more classic character and concepts are killed off or radically changed (without a reset built into the inciting story), the more retcons there will be to restore them.

It seems like only a matter of time until J Jonah Jameson is back to not knowing Spider-Man's secret identity. JJJ's crusade against Spider-Man is too iconic a part of the series to be gone forever.

JJ forgetting Peter’s identity would close more interesting story directions than reversing it. I don’t know what it is about comics that makes people so afraid of change. We’ve had over 50 years of JJ being on a crusade against spider-man. Let’s move on instead of being boring and lazy and just repeating the same old story beats over and over again.

[marhawkman]

Why? As much as people talk about MJ as a character and how she should have interests and a life of her own outside of sitting by the window waiting for Peter to come home, they're sure quick to throw a fit anytime she does anything that doesn't directly involve Spider-man. There's no problem with Peter having additional love interests, but god forbid MJ show interest in anybody else.

Well, actually.... I'm against Pete having love interests outside being married to MJ.

[clonegeek]

JJ forgetting Peter’s identity would close if more interesting story directions than reversing it. I don’t know what it is about comics that makes people so afraid of change. We’ve had over 50 years of JJ being on a crusade against spider-man. Let’s move on instead of being boring and lazy and just repeating the same old story beats over and over again.

It's just one specific age group of people in comics that seem to be the ones specifically against change. It's the ones who were around for the Joe Q years and how people like Bendis put the toys back in the box when they were done.

[Xenon]

I tend to think that editors/administration wound up being the part of the industry most adversely effects by the comic crash of the 90’s; writers and artists have maintained similar quality to that of the late Bronze Age through to today because the overall creative marketplace grew even as the comics market shrunk, but editors have been stuck trying to figure out ways to maintain the massively shrunk and shrinking marketplace since then, and rather than simply manage stables of creators and edit their work, they’re now constantly trying out marketing gimmicks, new market books, old variant manipulations, and of the opinion that any publicity is good publicity because of how small the marketplace is.

This is not to say that there aren’t still good editors out there, but more that there’s fewer market pressures to keep them in the business, and more to do stuff that’s crazy from a creative perspective but conservative from a business approach. And that “conservative perspective” plays into the “status quo” thing here:

I mean, since I'm throwing them under the bus repeatedly, I should note that I actually do have a lot of sympathy for modern day editors in that i'm pretty sure they're overworked and underpaid given their responsibilities, and this is a part of the problem. I don't think they're necessarily trying to do a bad job in general, just that circumstances aren't letting them put their best foot forward. It's just that because those circumstances lead to problems with what theyr'e supposed to be doing, when they're actively antagonizing us.

…because I think Marvel editorial’s obsession with a single Peter is an inherently conservative viewpoint and an example of echo-chamber thinking caused by it - as are most administrators of serialized fiction who’ve ever expressed discomfort or distaste with moving characters into a committed relationship.

It was stereotypically the “golden rule” of romantic sitcoms, with administrators often referencing Moonlighting as some iron-clad proof of the idea, rather than Moonlighting being a series where the main stars ran into some real world drama caused by careers on different trajectories. Stuff like Big Bang Theory arguably disproved it pretty hard, and something similar happened in more “serious” romantic drama as well in the last two decades.

Still, there’s a string conviction among marketing types that certain types of progress are verboten… but usually, annoyingly, aligned with a believe that other stuff can change or progress but doesn’t matter, reflecting how unstable and editorially enforced “status quo” is; like how current editorial believes a 30-something single Peter is totally ideal, even though no one’s going to adapt a 30-something single Peter unless it’s to get him reunited with MJ,

It's a misappplication of the tropes of other media. Will they wont they works find for a few years. Not 60. Like yeah The Simpsons doesn't change its status quo. People also stopped thinking the Simpsons was good twenty years ago. Different medium, different story, requires a different approach.

Well.. sort of... I just realized I had the wrong name. I was thinking about Lily's son.... Stanley. Lily Hollister wasn't even a character yet when MC2 was ongoing. So Stanley wasn't ever in MC2.

At any rate though, one retcon I loathe almost as much as OMD.... almost.... is Kindred, which probably surprises no one. why? because this was a heartwarming ending that I thought was GREAT!!!! And Kindred lit it on fire and threw it into hell.

Oh also OMD also ruins this because it has Pete and MJ as a couple.

EW..........Sins Past was awful I don't care how freindly Sarah got with whoever. She hsouldn't have existed the way she did.

Considering there have been stories were Spider-man was homeless, was being hunted so badly he couldn't even go out in costume, and has been rejected by the Avengers and FF multiple times, I don't see why now is any kind of deal breaker.


Why? As much as people talk about MJ as a character and how she should have interests and a life of her own outside of sitting by the window waiting for Peter to come home, they're sure quick to throw a fit anytime she does anything that doesn't directly involve Spider-man. There's no problem with Peter having additional love interests, but god forbid MJ show interest in anybody else.

This is a straw man. The argument he made was not "MJ should not have other love intersts" it was "MJ behaved in a manner that is terribly ruinous to their relationship and requires fixing before it can proceed because it was out of character". While it is true that neither Peter nor MJ should have additional love interests at this point, at least they always made sure Peter was broken up with her before they gave him someone to waste our time with. But that is a fundamentally seperate point from them turning MJ into a heartless THOT.

[clonegeek]

I mean, since I'm throwing them under the bus repeatedly, I should note that I actually do have a lot of sympathy for modern day editors in that i'm pretty sure they're overworked and underpaid given their responsibilities, and this is a part of the problem. I don't think they're necessarily trying to do a bad job in general, just that circumstances aren't letting them put their best foot forward. It's just that because those circumstances lead to problems with what theyr'e supposed to be doing, when they're actively antagonizing us.



It's a misappplication of the tropes of other media. Will they wont they works find for a few years. Not 60. Like yeah The Simpsons doesn't change its status quo. People also stopped thinking the Simpsons was good twenty years ago. Different medium, different story, requires a different approach.



EW..........Sins Past was awful I don't care how freindly Sarah got with whoever. She hsouldn't have existed the way she did.



This is a straw man. The argument he made was not "MJ should not have other love intersts" it was "MJ behaved in a manner that is terribly ruinous to their relationship and requires fixing before it can proceed because it was out of character". While it is true that neither Peter nor MJ should have additional love interests at this point, at least they always made sure Peter was broken up with her before they gave him someone to waste our time with. But that is a fundamentally seperate point from them turning MJ into a heartless THOT.

Even the Simpsons at least makes the effort to change the status quo the of the supporting cast everyone in a while like Ned was married Mrs Krappeal.

[Garlador]

Why? As much as people talk about MJ as a character and how she should have interests and a life of her own outside of sitting by the window waiting for Peter to come home, they're sure quick to throw a fit anytime she does anything that doesn't directly involve Spider-man. There's no problem with Peter having additional love interests, but god forbid MJ show interest in anybody else.

This is a strawman. Nobody is saying this here.

If anything, we’re upset she’s far more of a story prop here than ever before, because her experiences are ignored solely to hurt Peter and bog down HIS story. She has little agency.

I’m re-reading the marriage era right now and it’s the MOST active time in Mary Jane’s comic history. The most involved supporting cast of friends and family. The most active she is in pursuing her career (her rushing to Peter with tears of joy after landing a big role, both of them crying and cheering and celebrating….). The most active she is at furthering her education and trying new things. The most active she is at helping Peter in his role as a hero. She is not “sitting around the window sadly pining he’ll come home”; she’s living and loving her life WITH Peter. Heck, I just read the issue where she’s kidnapped by a crazy rich admirer, takes out his goons, beats him bloody, steals a gun, and then saves PETER. Married or not, she was written as strong, self-assured, and yet still loving, highly devoted, and with unbeatable convictions. WE MISS THIS in current stories.

[Jman27]

This is a strawman. Nobody is saying this here.

If anything, we’re upset she’s far more of a story prop here than ever before, because her experiences are ignored solely to hurt Peter and bog down HIS story. She has little agency.

I’m re-reading the marriage era right now and it’s the MOST active time in Mary Jane’s comic history. The most involved supporting cast of friends and family. The most active she is in pursuing her career (her rushing to Peter with tears of joy after landing a big role, both of them crying and cheering and celebrating….). The most active she is at furthering her education and trying new things. The most active she is at helping Peter in his role as a hero. She is not “sitting around the window sadly pining he’ll come home”; she’s living and loving her life WITH Peter. Heck, I just read the issue where she’s kidnapped by a crazy rich admirer, takes out his goons, beats him bloody, steals a gun, and then saves PETER. Married or not, she was written as strong, self-assured, and yet still loving, highly devoted, and with unbeatable convictions. WE MISS THIS in current stories.

at the beginning before context was given yes people were saying that here.

[Tuck]

Lot of people seemed to hate Carlie.

[Garlador]

at the beginning before context was given yes people were saying that here.

Nobody was throwing a fit that she “was doing something that didn’t directly involved Spider-Man.”
Show me that.

We liked her for having so much outside of Peter’s life, for decades. Even DURING THEIR MARRIAGE.

Lot of people seemed to hate Carlie.

Many aren’t a fan of the Silk-pheromone hook-up either.

[Tuck]

Many aren’t a fan of the Silk-pheromone hook-up either.

Does that even count?

I recall a bunch of almost stuff that never went anywhere.

And then there was stuff like Bobbi, which was a blink-and-you-missed-it situation.

Carlie is really the only new post-OMD LI that counts for much of anything.

[clonegeek]

Does that even count?

I recall a bunch of almost stuff that never went anywhere.

And then there was stuff like Bobbi, which was a blink-and-you-missed-it situation.

Carlie is really the only new post-OMD LI that counts for much of anything.

Peter only has three major love interests and the others are just meh. Betty Brant is better married or a really good friend to Flash

[marhawkman]

Nobody was throwing a fit that she “was doing something that didn’t directly involved Spider-Man.”
Show me that.

We liked her for having so much outside of Peter’s life, for decades. Even DURING THEIR MARRIAGE.

This is actually part of why I like Sins Past more than some do. MJ and Pete were working together to figure out what to do about Sarah and Gabriel. MJ wasn't just along for the ride.

[Xenon]

Even the Simpsons at least makes the effort to change the status quo the of the supporting cast everyone in a while like Ned was married Mrs Krappeal.

That's true. Ned's lost two wives, Bleedin' Gums Murphy. Apu was married and had kids before he was just axed from the show entirely.

This is a strawman. Nobody is saying this here.

If anything, we’re upset she’s far more of a story prop here than ever before, because her experiences are ignored solely to hurt Peter and bog down HIS story. She has little agency.

I’m re-reading the marriage era right now and it’s the MOST active time in Mary Jane’s comic history. The most involved supporting cast of friends and family. The most active she is in pursuing her career (her rushing to Peter with tears of joy after landing a big role, both of them crying and cheering and celebrating….). The most active she is at furthering her education and trying new things. The most active she is at helping Peter in his role as a hero. She is not “sitting around the window sadly pining he’ll come home”; she’s living and loving her life WITH Peter. Heck, I just read the issue where she’s kidnapped by a crazy rich admirer, takes out his goons, beats him bloody, steals a gun, and then saves PETER. Married or not, she was written as strong, self-assured, and yet still loving, highly devoted, and with unbeatable convictions. WE MISS THIS in current stories.

Right, again, saying this is a "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" situation is an incredibly disingenuous misread. What we have here is a three layered problem. Yes, any other love interest is going to be a fundamental problem for both of them, because they shouldn't exist, and everyone is goign to complain. It's arguably true we're going to complain more about MJ's, because people relate to and through the main character, and him wasting time with random girls is therefore less emotionally harmful than her. Just the nature of relation. Then there's layer two, which is that she's ooc and if you examine her history and personality, statements, and actions over the years, a big part of what makes her ooc is that she doesn't want other love interests, and she certainly doesn't want other love interests while she's already with Peter. Again while i had no interest in reading it without explnation, I always assumed they were going to have MJ and Peter go through some contrived breakup based on "what Peter did?!", where by it would be fine for her to have some other love interest from a character perspective. STill a stupid waste of time I wouldn't like, but not ooc. But they didnt' do that. MJ never breaks up with Peter until AFTER she's with Paul, which brings us to layer 3. Which is that, the manner is which they've made her OOC has also made her pretty bad. She has zero faith or love in the man she's supposed to have a "pure" and "rare" love for whom she just asked to "stay forever" and cheated on him within a year if you take the comic on face value. Yes, four years is a long time. It's not long enough. People go without sex for longer than that.

at the beginning before context was given yes people were saying that here.

Because it's also true. Different layers, again. There's a surface level where all love interests are fundamentally a flawed concept because Peter and MJ are supposed to be married and even Marvel editorial agrees they are end game. So all non-each other love interests are a bad story, partially because it's not consistent with the characters stated desires, but even if you can get around that, they're also just a waste of time that at best are baggage for when they eventually get together.

Does that even count?

I recall a bunch of almost stuff that never went anywhere.

And then there was stuff like Bobbi, which was a blink-and-you-missed-it situation.

Carlie is really the only new post-OMD LI that counts for much of anything.

It's actually kind of sad that for all their insistence and big moves there really has only been one serious girlfriend since OMD. Like oh boy he's slept with Silk and Mockingbird and Felicia again and maybe Carol. Like...who cares? Who wants that? Any vicarious thrill possibly gained is doused by the awful manner we got there.

Peter only has three major love interests and the others are just meh. Betty Brant is better married or a really good friend to Flash

That may be true but Betty is still the fourth major love interest. Him having her as a real "first love" is important to the story and making the later girls more important. Like she's firmly in 4h place but definitely important enough to get to that level.

[Xenon]

This is actually part of why I like Sins Past more than some do. MJ and Pete were working together to figure out what to do about Sarah and Gabriel. MJ wasn't just along for the ride.

No she just hid the fact that the other woman Peter loved was secretly a terrible person who abandoned her children to entrap the man she cheated on.

[Jman27]

Nobody was throwing a fit that she “was doing something that didn’t directly involved Spider-Man.”
Show me that.

I said at the beginning so go to the threads that has issues where MJ show up and read it. should probably be page 11 of this board.