Does Spider-Man suffer from too many retcons?

[Jman27]

That may be true but Betty is still the fourth major love interest. Him having her as a real "first love" is important to the story and making the later girls more important. Like she's firmly in 4h place but definitely important enough to get to that level.

I agree with that since I'm rereading the original run up to issue 38 he had Betty on his mind constantly same with her constantly thinking about Peter. most of time he just goes to Bugle just to see and find her

[Alan2099]

That's true. Ned's lost two wives, Bleedin' Gums Murphy. Apu was married and had kids before he was just axed from the show entirely.




Right, again, saying this is a "what's good for the goose is good for the gander" situation is an incredibly disingenuous misread. What we have here is a three layered problem. Yes, any other love interest is going to be a fundamental problem for both of them, because they shouldn't exist, and everyone is goign to complain. It's arguably true we're going to complain more about MJ's, because people relate to and through the main character, and him wasting time with random girls is therefore less emotionally harmful than her. Just the nature of relation. Then there's layer two, which is that she's ooc and if you examine her history and personality, statements, and actions over the years, a big part of what makes her ooc is that she doesn't want other love interests, and she certainly doesn't want other love interests while she's already with Peter. Again while i had no interest in reading it without explnation, I always assumed they were going to have MJ and Peter go through some contrived breakup based on "what Peter did?!", where by it would be fine for her to have some other love interest from a character perspective. STill a stupid waste of time I wouldn't like, but not ooc. But they didnt' do that. MJ never breaks up with Peter until AFTER she's with Paul, which brings us to layer 3. Which is that, the manner is which they've made her OOC has also made her pretty bad. She has zero faith or love in the man she's supposed to have a "pure" and "rare" love for whom she just asked to "stay forever" and cheated on him within a year if you take the comic on face value. Yes, four years is a long time. It's not long enough. People go without sex for longer than that.

So, in short, the supporting cast is supposed to change and go through different events, but Mary Jane has to stay the way she is because she's perfect forever, and Peter is never allowed to interact with any women in a romantic angle.

You want to use the Simpsons as your example? Even the Simpsons have Homer and Marge different romantic interests every now and again, and occasionally let Marge go out and do things that didn't involve Homer. It just feel to me like you're arguing that you don't want stories because you've already decided how everything is supposed to end.

[clonegeek]

So, in short, the supporting cast is supposed to change and go through different events, but Mary Jane has to stay the way she is because she's perfect forever, and Peter is never allowed to interact with any women in a romantic angle.

You want to use the Simpsons as your example? Even the Simpsons have Homer and Marge different romantic interests every now and again, and occasionally let Marge go out and do things that didn't involve Homer. It just feel to me like you're arguing that you don't want stories because you've already decided how everything is supposed to end.

Yeah but none of Marge and Homers other love interests really go anywhere.

[Garlador]

Yeah but none of Marge and Homers other love interests really go anywhere.

Pretty sure fans also hate those other relationships. So, yeah, bad example.


Look, Marvel can’t tell me “Mephisto outright says he wants their love and marriage” because it’s this universal powerful love that even the devil fears and longs to eliminate, and then say Mary Jane and Peter are the types to give up on each other if it gets too inconvenient, and someone - anyone - willing to put out is nearby instead.

This kind of retcon just doesn’t work. WHO ARE THESE CHARACTERS? Are they the type to get tested like no other couple in comics had before and endure until a literal devil fears their love will bring him ruin and resets history itself to prevent their marriage, or are they wishy-washy characters with no true commitment to each other who fold when things get tough?

I choose the former, based on decades of established history, even as Marvel editors wish it was the latter.

[Xenon]

So, in short, the supporting cast is supposed to change and go through different events, but Mary Jane has to stay the way she is because she's perfect forever, and Peter is never allowed to interact with any women in a romantic angle.

You want to use the Simpsons as your example? Even the Simpsons have Homer and Marge different romantic interests every now and again, and occasionally let Marge go out and do things that didn't involve Homer. It just feel to me like you're arguing that you don't want stories because you've already decided how everything is supposed to end.

Stories are good when they make sense. Things make sense when they are based upon preestablished personalities, events, and conditions that exist. Everyone, supporting and main character are supposed to change and go through different events yes, that's what makes it a story, but that doesn't mean every characters is equally suited for every event. They still must behave within the bounds of their character for it to have any value. A story where PEter was talking about how happy he was to finally get his dream job that ended with him going to that dream job of working in a slaughterhouse wouldnt' be a good story because it's not consistent with the value and personality that Peter has displayed over the course of time. If Dazzler secretly had Peter's love child and she brought it too him, it would be a bad story for him to tell her to take a hike and abandon the kid (arguably it would be a bad story for existing at all, but this would be extra bad), because Peter shouldn't be abandoning his kid. You can't just scream "change" and that make everything ok.

Romantic stories for Peter Parker and Mary Jane Watson are pointless, because we know what they both want. There have been literally hundreds of stories establishing what they both want. Even the story they unmarried them established that their love was "pure" and "rare" and such a big deal the notDevil was willing to do a good deed to split them up. Ergo, there is no good romantic story with either of them that isn't them getting together. The story ahs told us who they are, what they want, and everything else is a waste of time. The whole point of single romantic stories is for the character to find their one. But they already did. So trying to throw some other woman or man in their way is a waste of everyone's time. There is no story there because the story itself already told us how it ended. It's the inherent flaw of the current status quo. The ending is set and there only one story with any satisfaction as a result, and that's them getting back together. At least, until that happens.

And yet, the problem doesn't stop there. Because even if we're willing to ignore that part of the problem, the inherent pointlessness of any romantic subplot involving either of them, any romantic subplot still has to adhere to their characters to be of any worth at all. Peter should not be beating his girlfriend for burning dinner, or, frankly, spending a lot of energy cruising for hookups (I'm not saying he can't take what he's offered but he's always been a more serious type). MJ shouldn't be cheating on the man she loves and treating him like garbage she doesn't care about. These actions are contrary to the established characters of both of them. Now, you could create situations where one makes a mistake in the right scenario, but even then I'd argue that's a petty unfulfilling story. Homer and Marge are tempted at times but ultimately the point of those stories is that their love for each other wins out over those temptations because even in their diminished state the Simpsons writers know them loving each other is core to their wants and desires as people. Why would we want to make that relationship worse and have baggage without good reason? And this additional fact is why the current story arc is so bad. It doesn't respect what MJ wants or how she acts. It disregards her long established desire to end up with Peter Parker and her long established subborness and loyalty. It doesn't fit with her character at all. And so on top of the inherently pointless and largely unwanted nature of her pursuing a non-peter relationship, it's additionally bad because it wasn't created in a manner that her character would go along with.

As for MJ doing other things besides just being with Peter...like...they do that all the time. She literally had her own mini-series the last time she was with Peter. In the 90s she had her own subplots and situations. If anything she's doing less right now because the story is about Peter not being able to be with her and its the focus any time she's on page as a result.

[Xenon]

Pretty sure fans also hate those other relationships. So, yeah, bad example.


Look, Marvel can’t tell me “Mephisto outright says he wants their love and marriage” because it’s this universal powerful love that even the devil fears and longs to eliminate, and then say Mary Jane and Peter are the types to give up on each other if it gets too inconvenient, and someone - anyone - willing to put out is nearby instead.

This kind of retcon just doesn’t work. WHO ARE THESE CHARACTERS? Are they the type to get tested like no other couple in comics had before and endure until a literal devil fears their love will bring him ruin and resets history itself to prevent their marriage, or are they wishy-washy characters with no true commitment to each other who fold when things get tough?

I choose the former, based on decades of established history, even as Marvel editors wish it was the latter.

And look I know this is me being a bit harsh but what was being asked was not some super heroic thing. Real People in the real world in real relationships are separated for 6 month or a year or multiple years on a regular basis. Work, prison, immigration, war, there's all kind of reasons it happens. And yes, it's hard on those relationships. Many of them don't survive. But many do. Many are faithful and devoted. This isn't Superman is trapped with WW for a thousand years. These are real time frames that normal people do have to go through. Give the woman some credit that she wouldn't give up on half of what she wanted in life and that she could be faithful that amount of time.

[marhawkman]

No she just hid the fact that the other woman Peter loved was secretly a terrible person who abandoned her children to entrap the man she cheated on.

Really... "just"... you think that's all MJ did? also, can't really agree she did that.

[Xenon]

Really... "just"... you think that's all MJ did? also, can't really agree she did that.

I mean the "just" there is meant to be an attack on what she did during Sins Past because yeah it's not great. It's not great for a lot of reasons. Chief among them are that, according to Sins Past, MJ let Peter think Gwen's death was his fault when it was Gwen's fault. In a world where Sins Past is canon, Gwen dies because of a hidden custody dispute between her and Norman. It really had nothing to do with Peter, that was just a bonus. And I could see her not telling him immediately or before she reveals she knows he's Spider-Man because she wanted to keep that secret. But there's really no excuse after she comes back. And you can at least argue that Peter deserved to know the woman he loved and pined for all these years was actually someone who had a fling with his greatest nemesis and abandoned her children in Europe just on principle. SP Gwen is not a good person. It's a good thing she doesn't exist any more.

So, MJ "helps solve the mystery" in the sense that she knew the answer the whole time but let Peter agonize over it until she had no choice. Like they don't work together, Peter works on trying to figure out who these kids are, and then MJ just flat out tells him she knows who they are because Gwen told her years ago.

[Tuck]

I mean the "just" there is meant to be an attack on what she did during Sins Past because yeah it's not great. It's not great for a lot of reasons.

[. . .]

So, MJ "helps solve the mystery" in the sense that she knew the answer the whole time but let Peter agonize over it until she had no choice. Like they don't work together, Peter works on trying to figure out who these kids are, and then MJ just flat out tells him she knows who they are because Gwen told her years ago.

Thank God editorial nixed the twins being Peter's kids. I mean, imagine how badly that would have messed up the character. /s

[Garlador]

Really... "just"... you think that's all MJ did? also, can't really agree she did that.

We should all collectively ignore Sins Past, for everyone’s sanity.

[Xenon]

We should all collectively ignore Sins Past, for everyone’s sanity.

Seriously. I don't know what I would do if Sins Past and Dead Language were canon at the same time.

[marhawkman]

We should all collectively ignore Sins Past, for everyone’s sanity.

I genuinely like the Sarah Stacy character though. ;-;

I mean the "just" there is meant to be an attack on what she did during Sins Past because yeah it's not great. It's not great for a lot of reasons. Chief among them are that, according to Sins Past, MJ let Peter think Gwen's death was his fault when it was Gwen's fault. In a world where Sins Past is canon, Gwen dies because of a hidden custody dispute between her and Norman. It really had nothing to do with Peter, that was just a bonus. And I could see her not telling him immediately or before she reveals she knows he's Spider-Man because she wanted to keep that secret. But there's really no excuse after she comes back. And you can at least argue that Peter deserved to know the woman he loved and pined for all these years was actually someone who had a fling with his greatest nemesis and abandoned her children in Europe just on principle. SP Gwen is not a good person. It's a good thing she doesn't exist any more.

So, MJ "helps solve the mystery" in the sense that she knew the answer the whole time but let Peter agonize over it until she had no choice. Like they don't work together, Peter works on trying to figure out who these kids are, and then MJ just flat out tells him she knows who they are because Gwen told her years ago.

Well, yes and no. MJ didn't actually "know" the answer at the start. She had info Pete didn't, but she didn't actually know what had become of what Gwen told her.

[Xenon]

I genuinely like the Sarah Stacy character though. ;-;

Well, yes and no. MJ didn't actually "know" the answer at the start. She had info Pete didn't, but she didn't actually know what had become of what Gwen told her.

I mean she can't be certain until Peter does the dna test but at that point...

[Kevinroc]

So, in short, the supporting cast is supposed to change and go through different events, but Mary Jane has to stay the way she is because she's perfect forever, and Peter is never allowed to interact with any women in a romantic angle.

You want to use the Simpsons as your example? Even the Simpsons have Homer and Marge different romantic interests every now and again, and occasionally let Marge go out and do things that didn't involve Homer. It just feel to me like you're arguing that you don't want stories because you've already decided how everything is supposed to end.

The current volume should be the textbook example of how not to do this.

[CaptainUniverse]

Seriously. I don't know what I would do if Sins Past and Dead Language were canon at the same time.

"Yes, I'll take double the trash in my Spider-Man comics, thank you."

"Sir, this is a Wendy's."