Does Spider-Man suffer from too many retcons?

[Lee]

That's what is special about Spider-Man, he is a Finite character in a world of characters whose stories never end

His story is still going after 61 years, he's Marvel's most popular character, Amazing Spider-Man is their best selling comic, they have zero plans of ending the series, there is no planned end point. How is that finite?

[Xenon]

Then they brought back the original Green Goblin and now Hobgoblin rarely shows up. Marvel Comics have always operated this way. In the 1960s they seemingly killed off the Vulture and replaced him with a younger guy, only to eventually bring back the original.

And that was a mistake. An unnecessary one given that his absence had proven he was replaceable.

This mindset, while sort of coherent in regards to Spider-Man, a character with visible forward momentum since his inception, is completely mystifying to me as someone who reads all around the Marvel Universe.

Thought experiment: How close is Daredevil, the series, from an ending? There is a character with an immense, decades-long streak of acclaimed stories by top creators that plays in a much smaller fishbowl than ASM, and *still* has done every trick under the sun: open identity, memory spells, deaths and revivals of all supporting characters, prison, the mayor's chair, marriage, un-marriage, leader of bad ninjas, leader of good ninjas--Matt has been that, done that.

Yet, from a bird's eye view, the character is exactly where he was in the 60s: running around, fighting crime. Same for Cap, Iron Man, Thor, and all the others. There is no next step for them to graduate into, because the same way that, say, Robinson Crusoe stops being interesting when he leaves the island, the heroes are fascinating so long as there's a wall for them to scale. A labour to undertake.

To add to that, given the state of American pop-culture, where 50-year old movies like Alien and Predator remain cultural touchstones, forever spewing off merchandise and spin-offs and revivals, I'd wager to say that the Marvel U is going to outlast us all.

I'm not suggesting the character is going to cease existing. I am saying that this story of the 616 will come to an end. Not because I want it to or even that it should. But because things beyond our control change.

The customer base for comic books keeps shrinking. Pretty much every move Marvel and DC make is about retaining the largest possible share of who remains.

If the industry doesn't figure something out eventually, there is a point where monthly comics stop being viable.

I don't think Spider-Man is going away . . . but it could turn into something more akin to James Bond, where we keep getting stories periodically, but not on an ongoing schedule.

This is the sort of thing I'm talking about. I'm not even saying comics are dying. I mean, my comic shop is pretty busy, even if half the attention is on non-comics, there are plenty of people buying books too. I am saying it's a messy chaotic world and it doesn't always go to plan. Disney could shut the whole periodical division down tomorrow. Not because it's not making money but because it's such a small piece of their empire that it's not worth their trouble or they need to make the balance sheet look better for some reason. Is that likely? No, of course not. But it only takes one unlikely event to completely change things.

[CaptainUniverse]

His story is still going after 61 years, he's Marvel's most popular character, Amazing Spider-Man is their best selling comic, they have zero plans of ending the series, there is no planned end point. How is that finite?

Marvel doesn't care about the comics, those barely make enough money for the creators that work on them to make ends meet. The only thing that concerns Marvel, Disney AND Sony are the games, the movies and toys. You know...the stuff that actually makes money and isn't being marketed to a niche audience. Whether the people at Marvel have plans of ending the series or not is irrelevant. If Disney decides that the comics are no longer profitable, they will end them.

[clonegeek]

Marvel doesn't care about the comics, those barely make enough money for the creators that work on them to make ends meet. The only thing that concerns Marvel, Disney AND Sony are the games, the movies and toys. You know...the stuff that actually makes money and isn't being marketed to a niche audience.

The comics division only makes about 40 to 60 million per year in revenue and that's not without removing COGS.

[CaptainUniverse]

The comics division only makes about 40 to 60 million per year in revenue and that's not without removing COGS.

That's not a lot of money from a business perspective. If I was Disney, I would have brought Marvel Entertainment into the fold sooner and expanded the number of places that the general public could find comic books so I could at least try to get those numbers up and compete with the rapidly growing market for Japanese Manga, rather than trying to pretend that we aren't competitors and that their success is somehow also my success.

[clonegeek]

That's not a lot of money from a business perspective. If I was Disney, I would have brought Marvel Entertainment into the fold sooner and expanded the number of places that the general public could find comic books so I could at least try to get those numbers up and compete with the rapidly growing market for Japanese Manga, rather than trying to pretend that we aren't competitors and that their success is somehow also my success.

Im curious when we will get any noticable changes after Disney brought the comics into the fold.

It still boggles my mind that the comic book industry is so ill run that X-Men #1's record still hasn't been broken after 30 years. 2 billion people have since been added to the population and somebody still can't figure out how to beat that.

[clonegeek]

Marvel doesn't care about the comics, those barely make enough money for the creators that work on them to make ends meet. The only thing that concerns Marvel, Disney AND Sony are the games, the movies and toys. You know...the stuff that actually makes money and isn't being marketed to a niche audience. Whether the people at Marvel have plans of ending the series or not is irrelevant. If Disney decides that the comics are no longer profitable, they will end them.

The comics at this point are just Marketing

[CaptainUniverse]

Im curious when we will get any noticable changes after Disney brought the comics into the fold.

It still boggles my mind that the comic book industry is so ill run that X-Men #1's record still hasn't been broken after 30 years. 2 billion people have since been added to the population and somebody still can't figure out how to beat that.

I wouldn't really know. Five years, perhaps?

It's because comics are only sold via specialty shops that the general public have to go out of their way to find, which most people might not want to do, especially not if the nearest comic store is an hour or more away in another city and you need to save your gas for going to and from work, school, etc.

[Xenon]

His story is still going after 61 years, he's Marvel's most popular character, Amazing Spider-Man is their best selling comic, they have zero plans of ending the series, there is no planned end point. How is that finite?

Because it will be. Just because it's not planned to end does not mean it will not end. There are arguments to be made for why a certain status quo should stick around, to be sure. But it has to be a certain way because it's always been that way and always will is untrue in both directions.

That's not a lot of money from a business perspective. If I was Disney, I would have brought Marvel Entertainment into the fold sooner and expanded the number of places that the general public could find comic books so I could at least try to get those numbers up and compete with the rapidly growing market for Japanese Manga, rather than trying to pretend that we aren't competitors and that their success is somehow also my success.

Exactly. I think Disney is happy enough to just make the money and use it as an ideas incubator. But that sort of thinking can easily change. I'm not saying they need to plan an ending and get to it right now, I used to think that way, but I'd be happy if they'd right the ship and let him progress for another twenty years or more at this point. But I am saying that insisting they have to recycle certain things because its going to go forever is poor thinking that won't lead to sucess.

The comics at this point are just Marketing

Script workshops, maybe, but not marketing. Marketing requires them to be popular. ASM is probably the highest selling book each month (data is bad right now though so who really knows) and it probably isn't selling more than 70 or 80k at most. Like 50 million people saw Spider-verse. As marketing they have no value.

[NathanS]

Because it will be. Just because it's not planned to end does not mean it will not end. There are arguments to be made for why a certain status quo should stick around, to be sure. But it has to be a certain way because it's always been that way and always will is untrue in both directions.

By that logic the hole Marvel Universe is in fact finite and therefore the original statement Lee was responding to, that Spider-Man is unique in the Marvel U by being finite is in fact STILL wrong.

[godisawesome]

I’d still argue that, considering how successful the comic was when MJ was married to Peter (in other words, still among the most successful in the then-healthier industry, and more likely benefiting from it than anything else), the comic is the same amount of finite or infinite as it is now.

No one dropped the book because of the marriage, just like they didn’t drop the book for any other hero who got married.

[Xenon]

By that logic the hole Marvel Universe is in fact finite and therefore the original statement Lee was responding to, that Spider-Man is unique in the Marvel U by being finite is in fact STILL wrong.

Perhaps it's not quite right but it strikes at the heart of why Spider-Man was more successful which is that he DID embrace the finite nature of the story. Peter graduates high school within 30 issues. College before 200. Married in 25 years. And more than that. GG was dead for over twenty years. Betty got married. Harry got married and had a kid, Gwen died. It's only after he got married did they get spooked and stopped progressing. And to be fair that was still kind of ok. I mean, they still tried a bit. Peter and MJ at one point bought a house. But not everyone has kids, life can slow down, and that's fine, but they probably needed to make some progress eventually. But that's an argument we can't have because editorial threw a fit. So we waste time trying to go back starting in the 90s. First by pretending he's a clone, then by killing MJ, then by splitting them up temporarily, though to be fair to that last one it's something that does happen, so it didn't get stagnant but it was spinning its wheels.

And that long story paid dividends. It created investment in the story that other books don't have. When I stopped buying ASM I stopped buying comics because nothing else I read i was that invested in. Like I love Batman but I know his long story doesn't really exist and therefore I'm not invested. When I go back I'll start buying Batman again and within four issues I'll know everything i need to. There's a certain value to that, to be sure, but it's less than what Spider-Man had and continues to hold a very tenuous grip on. It was better. And it can be better again.

I’d still argue that, considering how successful the comic was when MJ was married to Peter (in other words, still among the most successful in the then-healthier industry, and more likely benefiting from it than anything else), the comic is the same amount of finite or infinite as it is now.

No one dropped the book because of the marriage, just like they didn’t drop the book for any other hero who got married.

Peter Parker, a man who was thinking of proposing to Betty, was definitely no worse off in his marriage than he was before. If they hadn't done it then people would have been calling for it eventually. It's a natural progression of his story and the only reason it's a debate point at all is because Joe Quesada made a stubborn foolish decision that harmed both the property and the comic book industry as a whole.

And while i've been all doom and gloom, and I do recognize the inherent finiteness of everything, I would also point out it doesn't have to be that drastic either. Disney could shut them down tomorrow or they could fire everyone in charge and replace them or they could decide to invest a billion dollars to chase that Manga market with actual talent (though this would probably involve firing everyone in charge still). There's all sorts of way it could end, both good and bad. The next guy in charge might decide that they should adopt a Gundam model with a new universe every twenty years or whatever. The point is just that lots of things can happen and one of them will likely bring this story to a close. This realization is also part of why current status quo bothers me so much. Because the end can come so suddenly, I'd like it if they were in a ood spot instead of....this dumpster fire we're at least a year out from solving.

[ARkadelphia]

That is why Spider-Man continuity and history should have a Crisis On Infinite Earths-type reboot.

That’s a “no” from me, dawg

[Kaitou D. Kid]

That is why Spider-Man continuity and history should have a Crisis On Infinite Earths-type reboot.

That was OMD.

[marhawkman]

I think there's a legitimate question for whether Marvel should continue to operate this way. Or whether an endless sea of retcons and convoluted continuity has done more harm to the brand and the book's longevity. For two decades Norman's Goblin was dead and the series lived on. Thats a significant chunk of time. In addition, Harry was dead, Kraven was dead, Peter was married. (And the 50 year old corpse of Gwen Stacy also says hello.) And all of this was part of a status quo when the book (and the industry as a whole) was at its zenith in terms of sales. Reviving characters and retconning events to earlier status quos doesn't seem to have done much (if anything) to recoup sales in the long run. But it has done a lot to divide and alienate a portion of Marvel's readership.

Yeah, you can't have history... without having the setting change over time. People care because of the history... not the concept. Mega-retcons like OMD break the history. It gives you less reason to care about the characters or setting. It literally damages the brand.