Tim Drake: Robin #10 Preview (Final Issue)

[godisawesome]

How was being Red Robin when Bruce came back redundant? We had two Batmen running about and Cassandra came back as Black Bat. Tim could've stayed as Red Robin without Flashpoint.

Yeah, I think I’d argue that the Pre-Flashpoint BatBooks were a great example of how an appearance of redundancy or “purposeless-ness” would be disproven simply by having great creators hitting their strides on a lot of characters and books all at once. Dick and Bruce, in costume, depended on viewers identifying costume details to tell them apart on a shallow level… but that wasn’t a problem, because the entire fanbase was engaged in the stories on a much deeper level.

Besides, I think the Red Robin role’s main “purpose” for Tim at the time was actually about making sure he wasn’t overlapping with Damian, rather than finding Bruce.

[dietrich]

When I say RR was redundant once Bruce got back I mean that the initial reason for Tim choosing the moniker was now fulfilled so he would need a new in-story explanation for Tim carrying on with the name along with a new mission and the motivation behind said mission.

I've heard some say that Tim taking RR was only temporary that it wasn't a proper transition like Nightwing and Red hood. I can see how that might be the way some readers viewed that phase which explains why some never got closure with Tim leaving Robin.

For Tim to carry on as RR through Flashpoint and beyond he needed a story explaining why he was keeping this 'tainted name' under which he did dubious things.

He became RR because he felt he'd have to do things he couldn't do as Robin. [I find it funny how he totally ignored the fact that the OG Robin gave the mantle to someone else lol]
With Bruce back there was no longer a need for him to do anything dubious is what I mean.

[Godlike13]

Yeah, I think I’d argue that the Pre-Flashpoint BatBooks were a great example of how an appearance of redundancy or “purposeless-ness” would be disproven simply by having great creators hitting their strides on a lot of characters and books all at once. Dick and Bruce, in costume, depended on viewers identifying costume details to tell them apart on a shallow level… but that wasn’t a problem, because the entire fanbase was engaged in the stories on a much deeper level.

Besides, I think the Red Robin role’s main “purpose” for Tim at the time was actually about making sure he wasn’t overlapping with Damian, rather than finding Bruce.

Except Red Robin wasn't really apart of the story the fanbase was engaged in. He was peripheral. They tried to cut and paste him into it, but they didn't do it very well or accurately, and when it was over he was just left over. Red Robin didn't really work, it just didn't fail. If there was an argument being made with then Pre-Flashpoint Bat Books about redundancy or "purposeless-ness” it wasn't being made with Red Robin.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Except Red Robin wasn't really apart of the story the fanbase was engaged in. He was peripheral. They tried to cut and paste him into it, but they didn't do it very well or accurately, and when it was over he was just left over. Red Robin didn't really work, it just didn't fail. If there was an argument being made with then Pre-Flashpoint Bat Books about redundancy or "purposeless-ness” it wasn't being made with Red Robin.

I dunno, it was selling pretty good.

When I say RR was redundant once Bruce got back I mean that the initial reason for Tim choosing the moniker was now fulfilled so he would need a new in-story explanation for Tim carrying on with the name along with a new mission and the motivation behind said mission.

I've heard some say that Tim taking RR was only temporary that it wasn't a proper transition like Nightwing and Red hood. I can see how that might be the way some readers viewed that phase which explains why some never got closure with Tim leaving Robin.

For Tim to carry on as RR through Flashpoint and beyond he needed a story explaining why he was keeping this 'tainted name' under which he did dubious things.

He became RR because he felt he'd have to do things he couldn't do as Robin. [I find it funny how he totally ignored the fact that the OG Robin gave the mantle to someone else lol]
With Bruce back there was no longer a need for him to do anything dubious is what I mean.

At that point he kept the name as he felt it was him being his own man and he got comfortable using it as it was at this he discovered Bruce:

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images...6319068fb4.jpg

[dietrich]

I dunno, it was selling pretty good.



At that point he kept the name as he felt it was him being his own man and he got comfortable using it as it was at this he discovered Bruce:

https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images...6319068fb4.jpg

That's doesn't really make sense with the narrative. How was he his own man? It's not like RR completed the Bruce is not dead/missing mission alone/as his own man. That was done working with the batfamily.

Was he planning on carrying on as his own man? How? Doing what? That's why he heeded a reason not just saying it.

I'm sure he got comfortable using it but that doesn't change the fact that for he still needed a purpose. It's not like he left the Bats to set up as his own man after Bruce came back. No he was still working with the Batfamily on Batman missions.

That page should have outlined what his next plans were. I guess since the reboot happened shortly after I can see why some mean that Flashpoint messed it up.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

That's doesn't really make sense with the narrative. How was he his own man? It's not like RR completed the Bruce is not dead/missing mission alone/as his own man. That was done working with the batfamily.

Was he planning on carrying on as his own man? How? Doing what? That's why he heeded a reason not just saying it.

I'm sure he got comfortable using it but that doesn't change the fact that for he still needed a purpose. It's not like he left the Bats to set up as his own man after Bruce came back. No he was still working with the Batfamily on Batman missions.

That page should have outlined what his next plans were. I guess since the reboot happened shortly after I can see why some mean that Flashpoint messed it up.

In the series he had his own base of operations and was doing his solo missions such as investigating the council of spiders, and assassin tournament. He did work with the Batfamily in the sense Dick does as Nightwing where he works alongside them and calls for help/keeps in touch but is more or less a solo act. The Fabnic run was focused on Tim trying to set up what to do next while still in Gotham

[godisawesome]

Except Red Robin wasn't really apart of the story the fanbase was engaged in. He was peripheral. They tried to cut and paste him into it, but they didn't do it very well or accurately, and when it was over he was just left over. Red Robin didn't really work, it just didn't fail. If there was an argument being made with then Pre-Flashpoint Bat Books about redundancy or "purposeless-ness” it wasn't being made with Red Robin.

That timeframe saw like 4 or 5 stories the fanbase was engaged with; I”d argue only some people were solely fixated on Morrison’s stuff and disregarding the rest, though it was still outrageously popular. Paul Dini’s Streets of Gotham run was fire, Scott Snyder’s run on TEC was a critical darling with clear support justifying his eventual run on the main book, and the “peripheral” solo books like Red Robin and Batgirl were still extremely popular. It was a time when most Bat-fans tended to be following about two or three stories in the family… and within that paradigm, Red Robin had a key part.

This was a Renaissance for the BatBooks, arguably the best they’d been since Denny O’Neill’s editing days in the 90’s, and early 00’s, but it was also a heavily decentralized time compared to the centralization back then.

Red Robin worked great - arguably more so in an immediate sense than the famously-more-successful-in-TPB Batgirl book with Steph. And he was one of the many reasons why everyone got hyped for The Gates of Gotham miniseries - which was a flat out “for fun and the love of the game” mini at the time. He may have lacked a “key role” comparable to getting sick with the Clench… but I’d argue his fans were far more thrilled at this time than that time.

Tim’s “search for Bruce” didn’t really connect to Morrison’s epic, it’s true - but while Morrison’s stuff was the biggest thing in comics at the time, the Batman Frnachise was still bigger than Morrison’s stuff in total.

I mean, we’re talking about a time when I’d argue that a side-kick spin-off book for Batman was probably healthier and less dependent on gimmicks and marketing than Superman and Wonder Woman’s main titles.

[Godlike13]

That timeframe saw like 4 or 5 stories the fanbase was engaged with; I”d argue only some people were solely fixated on Morrison’s stuff and disregarding the rest, though it was still outrageously popular. Paul Dini’s Streets of Gotham run was fire, Scott Snyder’s run on TEC was a critical darling with clear support justifying his eventual run on the main book, and the “peripheral” solo books like Red Robin and Batgirl were still extremely popular. It was a time when most Bat-fans tended to be following about two or three stories in the family… and within that paradigm, Red Robin had a key part.

This was a Renaissance for the BatBooks, arguably the best they’d been since Denny O’Neill’s editing days in the 90’s, and early 00’s, but it was also a heavily decentralized time compared to the centralization back then.

Red Robin worked great - arguably more so in an immediate sense than the famously-more-successful-in-TPB Batgirl book with Steph. And he was one of the many reasons why everyone got hyped for The Gates of Gotham miniseries - which was a flat out “for fun and the love of the game” mini at the time. He may have lacked a “key role” comparable to getting sick with the Clench… but I’d argue his fans were far more thrilled at this time than that time.

Tim’s “search for Bruce” didn’t really connect to Morrison’s epic, it’s true - but while Morrison’s stuff was the biggest thing in comics at the time, the Batman Frnachise was still bigger than Morrison’s stuff in total.

I mean, we’re talking about a time when I’d argue that a side-kick spin-off book for Batman was probably healthier and less dependent on gimmicks and marketing than Superman and Wonder Woman’s main titles.

Morrison’s story was the centerpiece that the rest followed. You couldn’t really ignore it as the books at the time all had to follow what it’s were doing and the characters it were impacting. This was an interesting time for the bat books, that saw big change and various successes. In which Red Robin did not have a key part. Red Robin was a mid tier book that gained little traction, trying to pretend to be part a story it had little actual part in. Their were a lot of stand outs during that time, that lead to writers and characters seeing new opportunities, and new ideas that quickly gained traction inside and outside of the comics. Red Robin was not one of those though. It was an expendable mid tier title, clinging to a story the character had no real role in, leading to nothing and failing to truly sell the new persona as a new mainstay within the Bat mythos. Tim fan were happy with it, but made little impression with general audiences and it wasn’t long before people wanted him back as Robin.

[Aahz]

I've heard some say that Tim taking RR was only temporary that it wasn't a proper transition like Nightwing and Red hood. I can see how that might be the way some readers viewed that phase which explains why some never got closure with Tim leaving Robin.

I mean just adding "Red" to it is not really moving away from the name of Robin.

And maybe it wasn't originally even intended to move him away permanently. For what I recall Morrison intended to kill of Damian permanently at the end of his run and "to put the toys back in the box" (or something like that). Maybe the original intention was to have Tim back as Robin after that.

[NOCTPHOENIX]

Morrison’s story was the centerpiece that the rest followed. You couldn’t really ignore it as the books at the time all had to follow what it’s were doing and the characters it were impacting. This was an interesting time for the bat books, that saw big change and various successes. In which Red Robin did not have a key part. Red Robin was a mid tier book that gained little traction, trying to pretend to be part a story it had little actual part in. Their were a lot of stand outs during that time, that lead to writers and characters seeing new opportunities, and new ideas that quickly gained traction inside and outside of the comics. Red Robin was not one of those though. It was an expendable mid tier title, clinging to a story the character had no real role in, leading to nothing and failing to truly sell the new persona as a new mainstay within the Bat mythos. Tim fan were happy with it, but made little impression with general audiences and it wasn’t long before people wanted him back as Robin.

You say that but Red Robin was selling pretty well

[Godlike13]

You say that but Red Robin was selling pretty well

Sold mid tier. Again didn't fail, but far from a hit. Saw no traction anywhere else either.

[dietrich]

You say that but Red Robin was selling pretty well

It sold okay not pretty well.

[dietrich]

In the series he had his own base of operations and was doing his solo missions such as investigating the council of spiders, and assassin tournament. He did work with the Batfamily in the sense Dick does as Nightwing where he works alongside them and calls for help/keeps in touch but is more or less a solo act. The Fabnic run was focused on Tim trying to set up what to do next while still in Gotham

All of those were connected to the mission with the Bats.
It wasn't the same as Nightwing who is his own hero, with his own City that he's responsible for and his own gigs that have nothing to do with Gotham or the Bats. Nightwing at times does work with the bats but Bludhaven has nothing to do with Bruce.

All the bats have their own bases and do personal missions even Robin.

Like you said they were trying to set up something for him to do next because his initial purpose was over. It was redundant.

[dietrich]

I mean just adding "Red" to it is not really moving away from the name of Robin.

And maybe it wasn't originally even intended to move him away permanently. For what I recall Morrison intended to kill of Damian permanently at the end of his run and "to put the toys back in the box" (or something like that). Maybe the original intention was to have Tim back as Robin after that.

Indeed the plan was to return things to the status quo which was why there were no plans in place for Tim to do anything besides Robin type stuff [that is until Duke and WB]

Damian was supposed to die and Tim resume as Robin.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Honestly ...the last writer who wrote Tim Drake worth a sh-t was Chuck Dixon. But DC won't let Dixon fix this mess because its admitting the entire thing was a bad idea that made no sense. Love or hate Dixon but he seemed to really do a solid job on writing the character for years and knew his role. After he left....the character had no real direction.

I always feel this Tim Drake was a new universe creation. He's not the character we saw before new 52. So there is that.