Is it time for Spider-Man to "grow up"?

[Venomsaurus]

The other thing about the time skip in RYV is that it went from something that hadn't really been done before (Peter, Mary Jane with powers, and a daughter with powers whom they can't stop from superheroing so have to take with them) to something that was closer to things that had been done before (Spider-Girl, but Peter is still fully active and Mary Jane has powers). It was essentially a conservative move to a safer more familiar place. The dynamic of a superpowered couple with a superpowered child is less familiar than the dynamic of a superpowered teenager with superpowered parents.

Exactly. It was a fairly unique take on the super powered family and then it became something more familiar. It was still very well written, it was fun to have married Peter and MJ, but the series just wasn't the same. If they do reboot it, I'd prefer we go back to Annie before she was a teenager.

[Mister Mets]

We're eternally in Chapter 2 of the comics. Peter Parker shouldn't have figured his life out yet. There's a stage when most people have made 80% of major life decisions, and Peter Parker hasn't gotten there yet. He doesn't know what he'll do for a living at fifty. He doesn't know how long he'll keep being Spider-Man. He doesn't know whether he'll have kids. I think this is key to the Spider-Man comics, both in terms of preserving an important part of the appeal of the character, as well as allowing for the most stories.

The Spider-Man story engine is great and flexible, and something that can work in multiple environments. But you get a different story engine if he changes and gets older. And it’s not going to be as successful a story engine.

Fundamentally, there seem to be two different views about what makes Spider-Man interesting. The first is that he's the best of the young superheroes. He's better than Tim Drake or Kamala Khan or Billy Batson. The second is that he is the hero who you have seen grow up.

There's a false choice between having Peter Parker back to square one, and having a version who has been Spider-Man for more than half his life. He could be young without being a high school student who has only ever fought a handful of supervillains. There are some really good stories with a Peter Parker who has been Spider-Man for a few years, but hasn't figured out his life yet (the Roger Stern Spider-Man.)

I do think it is important for writers to view themselves as borrowing the series from their successors, rather than inheriting it and making radical changes, which beget more radical changes, until the series is no longer recognizable.

The level of growth under Lee & Conway wasn’t sustainable. Stan Lee’s pretty open about the fact that he thought the resurgence of superheroes in silver age comics was a temporary fad, following similar temporary blips with westerns and sci-fi. It’s a different scenario when editors and writers have to consider that a series is expected to still be going on in ten years.

If Marvel kept going with Spider-Man getting older I don’t think it would have worked as well. The story engine would rapidly change if he has a family who knows his secret; it could be an interesting series but it’s a different one. And it would have meant that we wouldn’t get quite a few good stories later, because these were told with a different version of Spider-Man.

I think Peter staying in high school wouldn’t work for several hundred issues, but there are status quos that can. If he’s stuck in high school it’s pretty obvious that every adventure he’s had would have to be in the last 2-3 years. High-schoolers tend to be limited in what they can do, especially in the 21st Century. But if he’s a college grad in his twenties considering a post degree, there is a lot of flexibility.

[Daibhidh]

We're eternally in Chapter 2 of the comics. Peter Parker shouldn't have figured his life out yet. There's a stage when most people have made 80% of major life decisions, and Peter Parker hasn't gotten there yet. He doesn't know what he'll do for a living at fifty. He doesn't know how long he'll keep being Spider-Man. He doesn't know whether he'll have kids. I think this is key to the Spider-Man comics, both in terms of preserving an important part of the appeal of the character, as well as allowing for the most stories..

There's three things here. One is that unless everyone decides to collectively forget about the marriage era we all know that this is a backwards progression. Since the marriage era includes, off the top of my head, Kraven's Last Hunt, the debut of Venom, the first death of Harry Osborn, the debut of Morlun, and Peter joining the Avengers for the first time, that's not going to happen. (And I didn't mention the actual wedding, the getting back together story from JMS, or To Have and To Hold.) Some people on the boards might counsel us to forget about all stories older than fifteen years ago, but that's not going to happen; those stories are up on Marvel Unlimited, they're published in trade editions, and they're good enough that remembering them is worth being frustrated by the current status quo.

The second thing is that unless Marvel reboots its continuity entirely Peter is no longer convincingly in his early twenties. There is just no way you can present someone who is the same age as Jessica Jones and Liz Allan, both parents by now, as being the same generation as Kamala Khan. He's been around in continuity since before Tony Stark and Matt Murdoch. Even if you could, Miles is contemporaneous with Kamala and Peter is older than Miles. The best you can say is that he's closer in age to Kate Bishop than he is to Tony Stark. And that means that if you present him as someone dealing with early twenties problems he doesn't look young; he looks like he's immature or having a mid-life crisis. At his age, acting as if he doesn't know what his major life decisions are actually makes him feel older not younger.

The third thing of course is that if you think Spider-man stories should be about one of the younger generation of heroes, Miles Morales is available and trying to establish an identity. If you let Peter be in his late twenties you get two sets of stories: a young Spider-man and a late twenties Spider-man. Even if one is better than the other, and I'm not sure what that would mean, having two different sets of stories is better than having two identical sets of stories.

Bottom line: there's no way to let Peter seem young any more. Trying to make him seem young makes him look like a divorcee having a mid-life crisis who has blown his savings on a motorbike and is trying to get down with the kids. There's nothing more aging than trying to recapture one's youth.

[Alan2099]

There's three things here. One is that unless everyone decides to collectively forget about the marriage era we all know that this is a backwards progression.

Nope. I disagree. The marriage happened and then it was written out of the story. It didn't rewind anything and all the developments still happened except they weren't married.

The second thing is that unless Marvel reboots its continuity entirely Peter is no longer convincingly in his early twenties.

Again, disagreed. Let's not pretend marvel time and the way different characters have aged has ever made sense. Peter is in his mid twenties. He probabaly always will be.

The third thing of course is that if you think Spider-man stories should be about one of the younger generation of heroes, Miles Morales is available and trying to establish an identity. If you let Peter be in his late twenties you get two sets of stories: a young Spider-man and a late twenties Spider-man. Even if one is better than the other, and I'm not sure what that would mean, having two different sets of stories is better than having two identical sets of stories.

You're suggesting giving away some of the defining traits of Marvel's most popular character to an imitation of that character, just so the imitation will have more fans. Sacrificing one character to prop up a copy of that character makes no sense at all.

Bottom line: You're wrong on everything and rather than accept what actually going on in the books, you stomp your feet and yell how it's all wrong.

[Garlador]

Bottom line: there's no way to let Peter seem young any more. Trying to make him seem young makes him look like a divorcee having a mid-life crisis who has blown his savings on a motorbike and is trying to get down with the kids. There's nothing more aging than trying to recapture one's youth.

Here’s what’s killing me.

They say it’s about “youth” and keeping him “young and relatable”.

But then with the post-OMD era he’s running a multi-billion dollar global tech company. He gets a job as a school PROFESSOR. He’s still mingling with former classmates who are married, with kids (and those kids are pretty old). He dated military career woman Captain Marvel. He still was wanting marriage and kids. They’re still digging back into comic storylines from 20-30 years back. They’re still giving characters like Mary Jane kids and domesticity. They’re still telling dark, adult stories of death cults, Lizard eating children, and LOTS of uncomfortably rapey subplots (at least three, by my count).

How is ANY of this about “youth”? Nothing about the book post-OMD feels like it’s “youth-focused”.

It’s just something they say, but I don’t see it in practice other than Peter acting like more of a manchild and begging for help more than before.

You're suggesting giving away some of the defining traits of Marvel's most popular character to an imitation of that character, just so the imitation will have more fans. Sacrificing one character to prop up a copy of that character makes no sense at all.

JEEZUS. I have no comment.

[Kevinroc]

Nope. I disagree. The marriage happened and then it was written out of the story. It didn't rewind anything and all the developments still happened except they weren't married.


Again, disagreed. Let's not pretend marvel time and the way different characters have aged has ever made sense. Peter is in his mid twenties. He probabaly always will be.


You're suggesting giving away some of the defining traits of Marvel's most popular character to an imitation of that character, just so the imitation will have more fans. Sacrificing one character to prop up a copy of that character makes no sense at all.

Bottom line: You're wrong on everything and rather than accept what actually going on in the books, you stomp your feet and yell how it's all wrong.

Miles Morales is Spider-Man. And Miles Morales isn't going away.

[Frontier]

I just want to say that I'm seeing some rude and passive aggressive comments in this thread and I want to emphasize that you can disagree with someone without needing to be rude or snarky about it.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

Miles Morales is Spider-Man. And Miles Morales isn't going away. You can either accept this or you can say something like this.

Some Spider-Man fans are big on trying to put massive genies back in tiny bottles. Seems to be a pattern.

[Frontier]

I mean, I'm fine with Miles sticking around but I don't think Miles, as his character actually is in the comics, really is that relevant to Peter's story and vice-versa from Miles' perspective.

Kind of the opposite in fact.

[Tuck]

Nope. I disagree. The marriage happened and then it was written out of the story. It didn't rewind anything and all the developments still happened except they weren't married.

I don't know. This is kind of like a "don't think of an elephant" situation.

It only really works if one has never read those older stories, and they only exist now as backstory.

[Garlador]

I mean, I'm fine with Miles sticking around but I don't think Miles, as his character actually is in the comics, really is that relevant to Peter's story and vice-versa from Miles' perspective.

Kind of the opposite in fact.

With that in mind, that might be one reason why I keep hearing from so many that they feel Spider-Verse and Insomniac’s take on him is far more enjoyable than the comic version.

I don't know. This is kind of like a "don't think of an elephant" situation.

It only really works if one has never read those older stories, and they only exist now as backstory.

Yeah, their argument doesn’t make sense.

Case in point: The Baby.

Was MJ ever pregnant? Quesada is on record saying “no”, but others seem to disagree, and nobody seems to know for sure. If she wasn’t, then “everything still happened” isn’t true. If she WAS, it drastically changes their relationship and MJ‘s character (she was extremely against the idea of having kids before marriage and even after they were married was adamant they wait until both of them were ready to be parents together for life).

So I don’t really buy Editorials explanation when it’s clear they themselves didn’t think about it beyond “break up the marriage” and nothing else.

[Unspeakable Evil]

I mean, I'm fine with Miles sticking around but I don't think Miles, as his character actually is in the comics, really is that relevant to Peter's story and vice-versa from Miles' perspective.

Kind of the opposite in fact.

"Nah I'm do my own thing " Lol
Miles and Peter's stories have been really separate. I get tho. When Miles is the main character Peter is support and when Peter is the main character, Miles is support.

[Frontier]

With that in mind, that might be one reason why I keep hearing from so many that they feel Spider-Verse and Insomniac’s take on him is far more enjoyable than the comic version.

Even Insomniac and Spider-Verse Miles pretty much separated from Peter to come into their own as Spider-Man without him.

[Garlador]

Even Insomniac and Spider-Verse Miles pretty much separated from Peter to come into their own as Spider-Man without him.

Only to a degree. Insomniac tied Miles very strongly to Peter’s story, then let him fly solo, and the next game they co-lead together. Spider-verse has Miles directly look up to Peter and get burdened finished the fight Peter had with Kingpin, alongside other Spider-Men to guide him, then went solo, then got dragged back into a big Spider-team adventure.

Miles SHOULD be his own man and have his own adventures, but he’s kind of like Nightwing and Batman - being his own thing but also intrinsically tied to the larger Spider-Man world.

[Frontier]

Only to a degree. Insomniac tied Miles very strongly to Peter’s story, then let him fly solo, and the next game they co-lead together. Spider-verse has Miles directly look up to Peter and get burdened finished the fight Peter had with Kingpin, alongside other Spider-Men to guide him, then went solo, then got dragged back into a big Spider-team adventure.

Miles SHOULD be his own man and have his own adventures, but he’s kind of like Nightwing and Batman - being his own thing but also intrinsically tied to the larger Spider-Man world.

For me Insomniac Miles in the first game wasn't really Miles. They tried to make him too Peter/Tim Drake-lite, and it wasn't until the second game when they separated him from Peter that he really got to be Miles.

ITSV Miles basically follows his comic progression of having to live up to a dead Peter Parker by becoming Spider-Man. There was Peter B as a mentor but for the most part Miles came into his own on his own terms and proved he didn't really need Peter.

I think Peter and Miles are both valid and legitimate Spider-Man's but they both have their own littler corners or worlds that don't really intersect that much (I say this knowing that right now Miles is dealing with a lot of Peter villains) and that's kind of true for a lot of the other Spiders. Bat-Family they are not.