How Long Until The Marvel Universe Shutters?

[NathanS]

Sure but my point here is that the overall goal is to create one large overall story over a 15 year period (15 is just an arbitrary choice). There's a beginning, middle and end. There are sub-stories within... but ultimately the goal is to create an overall narrative that ends. You guys seem to be saying writers would not be onboard with this kind of project?

Is hard to do with multiple writers, likely if you go the X period model the "how long till reboot" should just be tied to "how long is a given writer writing" no handing off, each one does their story. If that takes two years, great, if it takes 20 and sales let them last that long, great. (this is a thing that happens with serialized stories with beginning middle and ends, sometimes the story don't sell so it gets no ending or a rushed one, so... if your into that model something to be ready to deal with.)

As for the overall question of the thread...define Marvel universe and define shutters. Comics, even US ones are doing great. In terms of sale its 90% scholastic, but people are in fact buying comics. And that's not on top of the... less than effective at getting people paid models like webcomics. They may not make people much money but lots of them get made and read. The medium is in zero danger of going anywhere. And odds are Marvel is in no danger of going anywhere.

But the 20ish page monthly publication? Harder to say. Right now Marvel and DC and a lot of other "not aimed at school children" comic publishers are set up so they are dependent on those to fund everything. And they are at least just about still working. So transitioning away will be slow, but I do think long term likely to happen. How long? No clue. Could be centuries, could be decades or less, or more. Now the "no rally this is all a connected universe" Marvel U in its current state might be able to transition to whatever distribution model comes next, but might not. But Spider-Man comics in some form are going to be around for a lonnnnnnnnnnnng time to come. Even if they no longer are part of 616 or come out monthly.

[Alex_Of_X]

Is hard to do with multiple writers, likely if you go the X period model the "how long till reboot" should just be tied to "how long is a given writer writing" no handing off, each one does their story. If that takes two years, great, if it takes 20 and sales let them last that long, great. (this is a thing that happens with serialized stories with beginning middle and ends, sometimes the story don't sell so it gets no ending or a rushed one, so... if your into that model something to be ready to deal with.)

As for the overall question of the thread...define Marvel universe and define shutters. Comics, even US ones are doing great. In terms of sale its 90% scholastic, but people are in fact buying comics. And that's not on top of the... less than effective at getting people paid models like webcomics. They may not make people much money but lots of them get made and read. The medium is in zero danger of going anywhere. And odds are Marvel is in no danger of going anywhere.

But the 20ish page monthly publication? Harder to say. Right now Marvel and DC and a lot of other "not aimed at school children" comic publishers are set up so they are dependent on those to fund everything. And they are at least just about still working. So transitioning away will be slow, but I do think long term likely to happen. How long? No clue. Could be centuries, could be decades or less, or more. Now the "no rally this is all a connected universe" Marvel U in its current state might be able to transition to whatever distribution model comes next, but might not. But Spider-Man comics in some form are going to be around for a lonnnnnnnnnnnng time to come. Even if they no longer are part of 616 or come out monthly.

yeah, that was what i generally meant: 20-page, mostly 616, shared u comics as the base business model and point of appeal. The Lee\Kirby\Ditko model from 1961

[marhawkman]

The entry level for comic books has definitely hit a high point. Its even harder for old readers to jump back into comic books without the prior knowledge. Imagine trying to explain what the current xmen are to someone whose base understanding was the movies. It's an uphill battle, where as manga will always have an definitive starting and ending.

*points at One Piece and Dragon Ball*

How many DECADES of writing have we had for Dragon Ball? How many volumes of manga has One Piece had? Yet people still read those. Why? because it's not written in such a way you NEED to know all of the history. It's NICE to know, and helps understand certain things, but not really needed.

[Jman27]

*points at One Piece and Dragon Ball*

How many DECADES of writing have we had for Dragon Ball? How many volumes of manga has One Piece had? Yet people still read those. Why? because it's not written in such a way you NEED to know all of the history. It's NICE to know, and helps understand certain things, but not really needed.

yeah there is a lot of people who never read/watch the original dragon ball and start with Z and they are ok.

[Kurus]

*points at One Piece and Dragon Ball*

How many DECADES of writing have we had for Dragon Ball? How many volumes of manga has One Piece had? Yet people still read those. Why? because it's not written in such a way you NEED to know all of the history. It's NICE to know, and helps understand certain things, but not really needed.

I mean if you want to start reading one piece and dragonball you don’t have to worry about where to start. They both have clear beginnings. And you don’t have to worry about the inconsistencies that come with having multiple writers and artists on the book. Or spin-off books or crossover events. You just start at volumes one and go from there.

[Lukmendes]

*points at One Piece and Dragon Ball*

How many DECADES of writing have we had for Dragon Ball? How many volumes of manga has One Piece had? Yet people still read those. Why? because it's not written in such a way you NEED to know all of the history. It's NICE to know, and helps understand certain things, but not really needed.

I tend to hear that One Piece makes no sense if you skip chapters lol.

DB is also not active for as long as you'd, it started in 1984, ended in 1985, has a bunch of non-canon movies until Battle of Gods, and it's more or less hibernating after the Super's anime ended, and while the manga is being published right now, it's not seen as a priority to the franchise by either the companies or the fanbase.

yeah there is a lot of people who never read/watch the original dragon ball and start with Z and they are ok.

Honestly starting with Z makes you miss out on a lot of things, such as the significance of Goku and Piccolo teaming up, or the reveal that Piccolo is an alien, 'cause while it looks obvious if you start with Z, it's not that odd if you read vanilla DB considering how many weird creatures are around.

You can get the gist of it at least, but you're missing out on the emotional impact at first.

I mean if you want to start reading one piece and dragonball you don’t have to worry about where to start. They both have clear beginnings. And you don’t have to worry about the inconsistencies that come with having multiple writers and artists on the book. Or spin-off books or crossover events. You just start at volumes one and go from there.

To be fair, while ridiculously downplayed compared to western comic books, Toriyama isn't writing the manga anymore, that is Toyotaro and if you know Toriyama enough you can tell that it's someone else, and the art is definitely noticeable too.

That and Toriyama writes movies while he's not really involved with the anime, so we have characters being characterized differently (Such as Videl being more of a generic wife under Toei's writers, but keeps some of her edge under Toriyama).

So yeah, ridiculously downplayed, but it's there to an extent, and it's even more noticeable if you try to make sense out of the anime, manga and movies with Super, since they're three different continuities lol.

[Anthony W]

When people stop buying variant covers.

[NathanS]

I mean if you want to start reading one piece and dragonball you don’t have to worry about where to start. They both have clear beginnings. And you don’t have to worry about the inconsistencies that come with having multiple writers and artists on the book. Or spin-off books or crossover events. You just start at volumes one and go from there.

And even then I often run into people who look at just how much there is to catch up with those and go "NOPE" a lot of people are in fact not looking for decade long stories.

[The Overlord]

I give it 15 years, just talking about Spidey, the concept still works, but the execution with all the retcons means that the stories make no sense and is not accessible to new readers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PlVfGz_tmg0&t=710s

I can't even imagine trying to sell the Kindred story to the general audience.

[skyvolt2000]

yeah there is a lot of people who never read/watch the original dragon ball and start with Z and they are ok.

And how many folks started reading Marvel and DC at random???

The first X-Men book I owned was Gambit's first appearance.
The first New Mutants book I owned was Deadpool's first appearance and Summer Special
My Robin collection starts with issue 125 through the last issue.
Fantastic Four 284 was my first issue.

I do NOT need to know the history of these folks to read and enjoy the books. Nobody does.

[skyvolt2000]

So, I'd like to ask you straight, fellow true believers. Is Marvel the titanic heading for the Iceberg? If so, how much longer does the old girl got?

She is avoiding the iceberg.

Marvel is a business that can not pander to one set of folks.

Everyone else not named DC and Marvel are finding readers.

Why? Because they are not pandering to one group and their readers have the attitude of "read what you want"

Marvel tried new folks and we saw all levels of hate.
Marvel tried establish folks and we saw folks LOOK for reasons to not support.
Marvel tried new blood in creatives and we saw folks LOOK for reasons to not support and in some cases ATTACK those creatives.

Meanwhile folks COMPLAIN about Spider-Man yet instead of NOT buying the books-they HATE BUY it so they can complain even more.

That is not happening at Boom or IDW or Darkhorse or Oni Press.

The issue here is when Marvel and DC try to expand they get PUSHBACK from folks who act offended that they would DARE not pander to them.
And that only certain characters should have books that THEY grew up with or approve.

And the big elephant in the room that NOBODY wants to talk about.....

Marvel and DC have this battle......

The comic side treats certain characters a certain way.
The media side treats certain characters a certain way.

What happens when they collide?

Yet if I tried to do books with these folks who have gotten media side attention-here comes the pushback by the comic side.

The comic side that IGNORES how much money Marvel made for 4 straight years just off of Black Panther trades. Same with Carol, Kamala, Eternals, Thanos, Avengers and Miles and the Spiderverse crew. The media side has NO issue using certain folks and could careless if the comic side does. It's about business with them.

They are going to need to figure out away to attract new readers. They need to get more books in Targets and other retailers like that.

Trade wise they do however what I am noticing is those books are NOT in the stores but online. So far Miles Morales has been the exception.
In other words if you wanted say Moon Knight's last trade-you have to go to the Target app to get it.

This is NOT an issue with Oni Press, Boom Studio or Darkhorse books.

[clonegeek]

She is avoiding the iceberg.

Marvel is a business that can not pander to one set of folks.

Everyone else not named DC and Marvel are finding readers.

Why? Because they are not pandering to one group and their readers have the attitude of "read what you want"

Marvel tried new folks and we saw all levels of hate.
Marvel tried establish folks and we saw folks LOOK for reasons to not support.
Marvel tried new blood in creatives and we saw folks LOOK for reasons to not support and in some cases ATTACK those creatives.

Meanwhile folks COMPLAIN about Spider-Man yet instead of NOT buying the books-they HATE BUY it so they can complain even more.

That is not happening at Boom or IDW or Darkhorse or Oni Press.

The issue here is when Marvel and DC try to expand they get PUSHBACK from folks who act offended that they would DARE not pander to them.
And that only certain characters should have books that THEY grew up with or approve.

And the big elephant in the room that NOBODY wants to talk about.....

Marvel and DC have this battle......

The comic side treats certain characters a certain way.
The media side treats certain characters a certain way.

What happens when they collide?

Yet if I tried to do books with these folks who have gotten media side attention-here comes the pushback by the comic side.

The comic side that IGNORES how much money Marvel made for 4 straight years just off of Black Panther trades. Same with Carol, Kamala, Eternals, Thanos, Avengers and Miles and the Spiderverse crew. The media side has NO issue using certain folks and could careless if the comic side does. It's about business with them.



Trade wise they do however what I am noticing is those books are NOT in the stores but online. So far Miles Morales has been the exception.
In other words if you wanted say Moon Knight's last trade-you have to go to the Target app to get it.

This is NOT an issue with Oni Press, Boom Studio or Darkhorse books.

The Eternals comics didn't sell well though, nor did the film for that matter

What the fuck are you going on about in this post?

[Alex_Of_X]

She is avoiding the iceberg.

Marvel is a business that can not pander to one set of folks.

Everyone else not named DC and Marvel are finding readers.

Why? Because they are not pandering to one group and their readers have the attitude of "read what you want"

Marvel tried new folks and we saw all levels of hate.
Marvel tried establish folks and we saw folks LOOK for reasons to not support.
Marvel tried new blood in creatives and we saw folks LOOK for reasons to not support and in some cases ATTACK those creatives.

Meanwhile folks COMPLAIN about Spider-Man yet instead of NOT buying the books-they HATE BUY it so they can complain even more.

That is not happening at Boom or IDW or Darkhorse or Oni Press.

The issue here is when Marvel and DC try to expand they get PUSHBACK from folks who act offended that they would DARE not pander to them.
And that only certain characters should have books that THEY grew up with or approve.

And the big elephant in the room that NOBODY wants to talk about.....

Marvel and DC have this battle......

The comic side treats certain characters a certain way.
The media side treats certain characters a certain way.

What happens when they collide?

Yet if I tried to do books with these folks who have gotten media side attention-here comes the pushback by the comic side.

The comic side that IGNORES how much money Marvel made for 4 straight years just off of Black Panther trades. Same with Carol, Kamala, Eternals, Thanos, Avengers and Miles and the Spiderverse crew. The media side has NO issue using certain folks and could careless if the comic side does. It's about business with them.



Trade wise they do however what I am noticing is those books are NOT in the stores but online. So far Miles Morales has been the exception.
In other words if you wanted say Moon Knight's last trade-you have to go to the Target app to get it.

This is NOT an issue with Oni Press, Boom Studio or Darkhorse books.

I think I'm pretty much in complete agreement with you.

Marvel has been walking the tightrope with retaining older fans while fishing for new people to come read. Marvel NOW was famously more diverse, with fresher creators and big swings like Superior, Jane-Thor and Sam-Cap. And it got dragged thru the mud for that, particularly by right-wing comicsgate types and their audiences.

Thing is, older fans aren't the future, they're the past, by definition. Pandering to them, kowtowing to their demands is like investing in remodeling the titanic while it sinks. Yet, the market size is such you'd ideally want everyone to read your books, so Marvel tries to split the difference. You got your meat and potatoes, for the average joe. You nostalgia bait for the oldies. And your all-new, all-different to pique the interest of the diverse youth\LGBTQ+ community.

The Eternals comics didn't sell well though, nor did the film for that matter

They had enough juice for two trades and a massive crossover that ripped. Every comic starring D-listers should be so lucky.

DnA's GOTG was 25 issues long, and sold just above the cancellation line. No one's calling that book a flop

[FFJamie94]

I mean, we get to a point every few months where someone says "This is it for the big 2" but honestly, it never is.
The biggest problem is that comics are in a weird place right now, they aren't getting the readership they want, but that's because the People in marketing don't seem to know how to market to a Cinema going audience.
They seem to think that comics are more like something you want to just pick it up, sadly, they need to be more like a drug dealer.
Work out a deal with Cinemas and offer customers trades, get them hooked.
Instead of throwing out a comic because you think it will sell, actually offer that comic to the People who you want to buy it.
The problem with marketing is that they think synergy is the answer, not realising they actually need to sell the product they are offering.

Regardless, the money comics make/lose is just a drop in a bucket. For DC, it's a bit more noticeable, but for Marvel, unless they are doing really badly, it's worth being an IP farm.

[NathanS]

And how many folks started reading Marvel and DC at random???

The first X-Men book I owned was Gambit's first appearance.
The first New Mutants book I owned was Deadpool's first appearance and Summer Special
My Robin collection starts with issue 125 through the last issue.
Fantastic Four 284 was my first issue.

I do NOT need to know the history of these folks to read and enjoy the books. Nobody does.

Time have changed. We grew up when most media couldn't be consumed easily from the start and you just had to jump in. Now? Its child play to start most TV series right from episode one season one, and a lot of people expect to be able to do so and HATE when they can't. Same with most modern comics, and novels and so on and so forth. And long running comics set in a vast interconnected universe stretching back to the damn 40s are almost made to be awful for that model.