How was your view of Spider-Man shaped?

[Knightsilver]

The point is moot as Quesada insisted OMD was "for younger fans". An early 90's kid would have still been in high school by the time BND debuted.

Besides, fans born after that don't necessarily like the current status quo any more.

It's very weird how we keep bringing up that younger gens aren't into OMD, and it always gets ignored. At some point, it's reasonable to assume (or at least suspect) that those ignoring it are engaging in strategic ignorance.

The Playstation games and Spiderverse movies appeal to the exact demographic that OMD/BND was meant to. The games and movies went in the exact opposite direction of the comics...and the comics aren't anywhere near as popular. Something they might want to think about.

[godisawesome]

The Playstation games and Spiderverse movies appeal to the exact demographic that OMD/BND was meant to. The games and movies went in the exact opposite direction of the comics...and the comics aren't anywhere near as popular. Something they might want to think about.

The games and movies also, though, simply have a huge value advantage over the comics. They offer hours to even days worth of entertainment on the first time through and the same on repeat viewings or plays, and on a considerably cheaper dollar-per-minute of engagement system than comics and a more immersive experience than even some decent-sized and beloved comic collections.

And there’s something similar happening with Marvel Unlimited - especially since a year subscription offers you the entire library for about the price of 2 monthly issues a month.

Monthly comics have too much competition for their quality to be that big of an elastic variable in their reception; comic readers have a lot more options than comic collectors, especially because of how the marketplace has changed for Millenials and Gen Zers.

[Knightsilver]

The games and movies also, though, simply have a huge value advantage over the comics. They offer hours to even days worth of entertainment on the first time through and the same on repeat viewings or plays, and on a considerably cheaper dollar-per-minute of engagement system than comics and a more immersive experience than even some decent-sized and beloved comic collections.

And there’s something similar happening with Marvel Unlimited - especially since a year subscription offers you the entire library for about the price of 2 monthly issues a month.

Monthly comics have too much competition for their quality to be that big of an elastic variable in their reception; comic readers have a lot more options than comic collectors, especially because of how the marketplace has changed for Millenials and Gen Zers.

Fair points...of course this also illustrates how pointless OMD/BND was. All of that for an audience they were never going to get anyway.

[Xenon]

Noticed multiple Millenial responders here have mentioned dropping or not picking up the book after OMD like myself; now, I still *bought* Spider-Man stuff afterwards and read Spider-Man’s tuff afterwards, it just tended to be older or more alternate universe stuff.

Do you guys think Millenials might be more inclined to get their “fix” that way, and actually be more likely to contribute to the doldrums of current comic sales with minor boycotts, *because* they have such an easier time doing it than older Generations?

I sort of think that generally applies to the marketplace overall - that Millenials interested in superheroes simply aren’t by habit going to subscribe to comics on a monthly basis because they (and future generations) have greater immediate access to the back catalog, TPBs, and other media featuring the characters. Now, I still think that it’s likely most modern comic fans are still Millenials in total - simply because Millenials are the dominant demographic for entertainment right now - but do you guys think that might play a part on why current a spider-Man can “dominate” the industry but still have comparatively piddly sales numbers compared to decades ago?

I always wanted to read comics as a kid but the lack of access to the beginning was a deal breaker to me. I didn't want to come into the story half way through. So I didn't actually read the comic until I got a 2010 Marvel Unlimited Month trial that came with MVC3. At that point combined with the internet I read everything.

As for how that impacts the market, I think it's a combination of quality and accessibility. As daunting as it sounds I think part of it really is how hard it is to read things from teh beginning, Spider-Man is exceptionally daunting because he had four books for a couple decades, but most aren't that complicated. Yet I can't walk into Barnes and Noble or Walmart and spend 20 bucks on a numbered collection of 20 issues that I an easily read in order like I can with Manga. It's just way harder to get into. And then frankly, you have quality issues. The last fifteen years of Spider-Man have been mediocre. I keep on it because after I read the 45 years before that I'm attached and still believe it can be better and there's something worth it there. But I think a lot of the tropier stuff that comics have gotten known for depresses interest. The cyclical stories and death being meaningless. I'm not saying they can never revive someone, just that stories have to feel like they have meaning and consequence and are good, and I thin ka lot of books just don't measure up to that level.

[Xenon]

The games and movies also, though, simply have a huge value advantage over the comics. They offer hours to even days worth of entertainment on the first time through and the same on repeat viewings or plays, and on a considerably cheaper dollar-per-minute of engagement system than comics and a more immersive experience than even some decent-sized and beloved comic collections.

And there’s something similar happening with Marvel Unlimited - especially since a year subscription offers you the entire library for about the price of 2 monthly issues a month.

Monthly comics have too much competition for their quality to be that big of an elastic variable in their reception; comic readers have a lot more options than comic collectors, especially because of how the marketplace has changed for Millenials and Gen Zers.

I would actually argue that competition means quality is more impactful than ever, and there's ample evidence of that, but as a great example, Green Lantern. GL was always a second tier book. He was in the JL but they had no qualms about replacing Hal multiple times. The most prominent GL cartoon of the last thirty years stars John Stewart, after all. Except, of course for after Geoff Johns' run where he introduced the color emotional spectrum. All of a sudden GL was the biggest book at DC, regularly competing with and sometimes beating Batman, and constantly hanging around the top of the charts. GL was so successful that when the New 52 happened and everyone got reset, there were two exceptions. Batman and Green Lantern. The quality was so high that people took notice and they bought the book. It was a jewel in DC's crown. And then...it wasn't. Johns was put on other things (that didn't go as well, lol), the follow ups weren't as well received, and now GL is just another book in the pack. Look at Moon Knight, who generally can't support a book, is constantly appearing in the top 20 of what limited data we have (however good that data is, of course). Or another past example, Kamala Kahn. Her first series sells very well all things considered. But after they made her join Carol during Civil War II, sales just never recovered.

People absolutely respond to quality. Not perfectly, mind you, but there's definite impact. And particularly good or particularly bad things GENERALLY will show on the charts, even if a little delayed.

[ARkadelphia]

This is a great point, and I never considered it before.

I definitely never felt any "need" to fixate on current stuff because I spent most of my time since the 2000's just catching up on older books. I only "caught up" when during Wells' run.

You sure know how to pick ‘em

[Mike]

Gen X here. My first memories of Spider-Man was reruns of the 1960's Spider-Man cartoon.
cartoon.jpg
My first Spider-Man comic book was Marvel Tales #52
mt52.jpg
He has always been one of my favorite characters.
I will say the marriage wasn't one of my favorite changes to the character.
Then when "Sins Past" was published I lost all interest in the character.

[HowardtheDuck95]

Well, I’m very much on the younger end of Millennial. I first heard about the character on the playground as a kid. I was into Batman, my pal was into Spider-Man. Then I saw the first Raimi movie in theaters. That was my first real experience with the character. Was immediately hooked, just like how my dad showing me the first Keaton Batman got me hooked on it. And then I got that tape of a few episodes of the 90s cartoon they did. It had the first Green Goblin episode, the adaptation of the Kid Who Loved Spider-Man, etc. my grandma got me the Neversoft game for PC, and a joystick. The first comics I had were trades of the 4th volume of Ultimate and the Revenge of the Green Goblin, and my first floppy was (funny enough) Tangled Web 20 written by Wells. That was followed soon after by trades of the Death of Gwen Stacy and other classics, as well as a floppy of ASM issue 501 that I’d gotten as a gift. I also got the DK Ultimate Guide that DeFalco wrote. This is where it started, roughly. But definitely not where it finished. And it gave me a wide ranging and rich tapestry to behold.

What this all amounted to for me, was that Spider-Man was a story about, growth, change, and responsibility. He was a guy who started being a hero while still in high school, learned harsh lessons that made him a better person and a stronger hero, and was someone who did the right thing even when it hurt. He went from a bookish, prickly nerd in high school to an easygoing dude with a circle of friends in college, to a hardworking and busy guy, to a husband with even more responsibilities. He wasn’t about youth, he was about becoming a better person. And taking responsibility when it’s hardest to do so. And how those you love will inspire you to be your best. And for him, that was MJ (his Wife, his girlfriend, whatever, they were THE couple no matter the continuity and configuration) and his Aunt May, even when she wasn’t around. Heck, even Jonah saw potential in him. It may have started with him wanting to do better by May, but eventually that passes to him wanting to do better for himself, and eventually Mary Jane. And to make sure he never made a mistake like he did with his Uncle again. Because whenever it did…it hurt. But he keeps going, doesn’t stop until he wins, and eventually gets to relax. Until a police car whizzes by and he has to do it all over again.

And he’s got someone to say “Go get ‘em Tiger” when he has to.

[godisawesome]

Here’s query that I want to present with some nuance here: do you guys think that younger theater audience members were more likely to enjoy, “tolerate,” or less passionately dislike “Iron Man Jr.” MCU Spider-Man than older fans?

I’ve got a suspicion, particularly involving the high school and middle school students I teach, that the perception that Spider-Man “grows up” before the audience combines with a more “modern”/Ultimate-esque high school life to make MCU Spider-Man’s less downtrodden life tolerable, acceptable or even preferable to younger audiences than older ones.

Notice that I’ve included a “more tolerable” aspect here. I tend to think that many hardcore fans of a LOT of franchises have a sliding scale of criticism that we sometimes forget; some things are merely not-ideal, some things are irritating, and some things are intolerable. My suspicion is that “Iron Man Jr.” Spider-Man’s more privileged/blessed first adventures simply aren’t more than irritating to younger fans, and maybe only intolerable to much older fans.

[marhawkman]

Here’s query that I want to present with some nuance here: do you guys think that younger theater audience members were more likely to enjoy, “tolerate,” or less passionately dislike “Iron Man Jr.” MCU Spider-Man than older fans?

I’ve got a suspicion, particularly involving the high school and middle school students I teach, that the perception that Spider-Man “grows up” before the audience combines with a more “modern”/Ultimate-esque high school life to make MCU Spider-Man’s less downtrodden life tolerable, acceptable or even preferable to younger audiences than older ones.

Notice that I’ve included a “more tolerable” aspect here. I tend to think that many hardcore fans of a LOT of franchises have a sliding scale of criticism that we sometimes forget; some things are merely not-ideal, some things are irritating, and some things are intolerable. My suspicion is that “Iron Man Jr.” Spider-Man’s more privileged/blessed first adventures simply aren’t more than irritating to younger fans, and maybe only intolerable to much older fans.

"new fans" who don't know histories are always more amenable to drastic revisions since... they don't actually know it's a revision.

[exile001]

"new fans" who don't know histories are always more amenable to drastic revisions since... they don't actually know it's a revision.

Exactly.

That, and a younger viewer maybe doesn't have such a set-in-stone version in their heads.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

"new fans" who don't know histories are always more amenable to drastic revisions since... they don't actually know it's a revision.

It's true to an extent. At the same time, though, I think us older fans tend to overestimate how much of a blank slate or "set in stone" a new fan's mind will be.

For example, Tobey is still the most popular live-action Spider-Man with Gen Z's:
https://pro.morningconsult.com/artic...r-man-rankings

OMD has likewise not gained any new younger fans.

[Lee]

It's true to an extent. At the same time, though, I think us older fans tend to overestimate how set in stone a new fan's mind will be.

For example, Tobey is still the most popular live-action Spider-Man with Gen Z's:
https://pro.morningconsult.com/artic...r-man-rankings

This article is from late 2021 and only polled adults. Therefore the youngest Gen Zers polled would have been 18, born in late 2003. The start and end points of Gen Z are loose, but generally it's considered to begin at 1995-1997 and end at 2012/2013. That's roughly a decade's worth of the Gen Z demographic not reflected in that poll.

On the oldest possible end of Gen Z (the web page doesn't specify what their starting point was), someone born in 1995 would have been 7 when the first Spider-Man movie was released, 12 when Spider-Man 3 released and 22 when Spider-Man: Homecoming released.

On the youngest end of this poll, someone born late 2003 would have been 13 when Spider-Man: Homecoming released. Everyone who was a preteen when Spider-Man: Homecoming was released was excluded from this poll's "Gen Z" demographic, but people who were preteens when Sam Raimi's Spider-Man trilogy was active are included under "Gen Z" in this poll.

[Kaitou D. Kid]

We obviously need more data than just one poll. Ultimately, time is going to be the only thing that proves how much an influence something had.

In regards to MCU Spidey, I will say the one thing working against him is that he has a lot more competition than Tobey and Andrew did. He came out in the same era as ITSV/ATSV and Insomniac Spidey (both very popular takes with mainstream audiences), plus NWH frames all the three live-action versions as equally valid. That and it seems like everyone had meta-knowledge that the MCU crossovers were a big deal due to the nature of the real-life deal between Sony and Disney. All of that makes the version feel like "a" Spider-Man, as opposed to "the" Spider-Man the way Tobey was seen in the 2000's.

As far as the Iron Man connection goes... Culturally, it seems like Tom Holland's chemistry with Zendaya and with Tobey/Andrew are both left bigger impacts than his chemistry with Downey. That could also be due to Iron Man having been out of the game for a while. But also, NWH frames the trilogy as one big origin, and retroactively frames that connection as something he should get away from. All of that will affect how the youngest audiences right now feel about it.

But again, only time will tell.

[godisawesome]

"new fans" who don't know histories are always more amenable to drastic revisions since... they don't actually know it's a revision.

Yes, but that is just as true for pre-MCU fanboys as well; how many of us consider “Spidey is a bit of a smartass” as a key component of the character, even though that wasn’t as much the case for the Lee/Ditko version, and how that was reflected in the Raimi version of Spidey, even though it was a mild complaint that he didn’t trash talk much in those movies?

It's true to an extent. At the same time, though, I think us older fans tend to overestimate how much of a blank slate or "set in stone" a new fan's mind will be.

For example, Tobey is still the most popular live-action Spider-Man with Gen Z's:
https://pro.morningconsult.com/artic...r-man-rankings

OMD has likewise not gained any new younger fans.

I suspect that younger kids share something like my opinion on Raimi’s first Spidey-Movie - that it is an exceedingly good, dramatic, and engrossing origin story, and maybe the best superhero movie ever in that respect. And, much like with how younger generations have easy access to older comics than the older generations did, pretty much any kid who’s been interested in Spider-Man has likely got around to watching the Raimi films (like my 6 year old kid cousin who watches ALL the movies and clearly likes the Raimi and MCU version more than the Webb ones.)

I mean, the early cynical criticism of No Way Home’s set-up was “This is just another filthy nostalgia cash-in for Millenials and Gen-Xers!”… which soon got buried and forgotten because of how universal love for the movie was, probably because the “nostalgia” appeal was just as strong for super-young kids as it was for older ones! Freshmen boys passed my classroom in the hallway hyping themselves up about the “Lizard gets kicked by an invisible man” moment from the teaser trailer, and my 6 year old kid cousin had the same reaction.

…Which does tie back into my earlier argument; younger generations are just as likely as older ones to get “educated” on a hero’s history, but are still going to be formed by their own experiences and their earliest encounter with Spider-Man… and I think the younger you are, the less likely you are to have a major problem with the Iron Man Jr. elements because you’ve got the wider franchise to compare it to, and in the larger POV, the importance of the Lee/Ditko/Raimi type of melodramatic suffering for the character becomes less important and maybe even optional or unneccessary.

I mean, MCU Spider-Man is a lot closer in portraying Peter’s high school life to Ultimate Spider-Man or Spectacular Spider-Man than Lee/Ditko or Raimi… and since all those versions of Spider-Man have been successful, I could easily see that sucking the passion out of any dislike for the “Iron Man Jr.”elements.

Like… it definitely seems like Iron Man Jr. lacks the passionate rejection response of Bully Maguire (a meme-worthy but still failed idea from Spider-Man 3) or the over-reliance on the Parker parents in the Webb series.

It feels like an intellectual criticism that ultimately lacks fire because the rest of the franchise has moved closer in a lot of areas.